Logging XC Time

[mjburian]

I am based out of 57C and want to fly to RFD. According to SkyVector, that's only a 48.3 nm flight (not a cross country). However, I am planning on flying 57C-C55 (64.2 nm) first. I understand that I can log this leg as XC.

But, when I fly from C55 to RFD and then back to 57C, can I still log XC time for those legs of the flight? Does the answer change if I stop for lunch at RFD (hence, beginning a new flight for the leg from RFD-57C)?

FAR references appreciated.

 

[TMetzinger]

OK.

First, an X/C is any flight that departs one airport and lands at another.

So you can log all the time as X/C.

Where distance matters is if you intend to use that time to meet requirements for aeronautical experience when applying for a new certificate or rating. There are specific requirements there.

One of the FAR gurus can probably find the Counsel opinion, but in essence, if you intend to make a cross country trip, it's all X/C, regardless of how many intermediate stops you make. Only if a specific leg distance is spelled out in the requirement you're trying to meet does it matter.

So, you can log (and count) 57C-C55-RFD-57C as a single, X/C flight, with multiple landings.

 

[mjburian]

OK.

First, an X/C is any flight that departs one airport and lands at another.

So you can log all the time as X/C.

Where distance matters is if you intend to use that time to meet requirements for aeronautical experience when applying for a new certificate or rating. There are specific requirements there.

One of the FAR gurus can probably find the Counsel opinion, but in essence, if you intend to make a cross country trip, it's all X/C, regardless of how many intermediate stops you make. Only if a specific leg distance is spelled out in the requirement you're trying to meet does it matter.

So, you can log (and count) 57C-C55-RFD-57C as a single, X/C flight, with multiple landings.

Point taken.

I am trying to log XC time in preparation for the IR (if I ever decide to do it)... and my understanding is that only > 50 nm straight-line distance between landing points could be counted. With the question framed in that context, are you still saying the entire flight counts towards the IR XC requirements (even with a stop-off for a few hours at RFD)?

I was under the impression that a lunch stop would then start a new flight, and not be loggable for the IR requirements.


**Edit: Looking at 61.65 (d) 1, I don't see any distance requirements. Why did I think it was > 50 nm?

 

[TMetzinger]

Point taken.

I am trying to log XC time in preparation for the IR (if I ever decide to do it)... and my understanding is that only > 50 nm straight-line distance between landing points could be counted. With the question framed in that context, are you still saying the entire flight counts towards the IR XC requirements (even with a stop-off for a few hours at RFD)?

I was under the impression that a lunch stop would then start a new flight, and not be loggable for the IR requirements.

My belief is the whole flight counts. Your intent was to make a round-robin X/C flight. That's what you did, and one of the landings of that flight was more than 50 NM from the original point of departure.

If you logged it as two flights that would be different. Log it as a single flight, it makes it clear that this was one "mission".

Example:

Date | Tail| A/C | Route of Flight | Total | X/C | PIC | SOLO
6/25 | N5156M | C172 | 57C-C55-RFD-57C | 3.0 | 3.0 | 3.0 | 3.0​

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Now for the FAR references. I won't paste them here but:

61.1(b)(3) defines cross country as it applies to the PPL.

Notice that 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B) says "That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure".

A point of landing. It does not specify that it be 50 NM between landings, just that a landing be made more than 50 NM from the original point of departure. You can do as many stops as you like between the two and it all counts.

I am trying to log XC time in preparation for the IR (if I ever decide to do it)... and my understanding is that only > 50 nm straight-line distance between landing points could be counted.

That is not true. See below.

With the question framed in that context, are you still saying the entire flight counts towards the IR XC requirements (even with a stop-off for a few hours at RFD)?

Exactly. It all counts.

I was under the impression that a lunch stop would then start a new flight, and not be loggable for the IR requirements.

That is NOT true.

**Edit: Looking at 61.65 (d) 1, I don't see any distance requirements. Why did I think it was > 50 nm?

That is because that particular definition is in 61.1.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

If you logged it as two flights that would be different. Log it as a single flight, it makes it clear that this was one "mission".

Example:

Date | Tail| A/C | Route of Flight | Total | X/C | PIC | SOLO
6/25 | N5156M | C172 | 57C-C55-RFD-57C | 3.0 | 3.0 | 3.0 | 3.0​

That does not make any difference. One can log each leg on a line and it should be obvious what the intent was.

 

[TMetzinger]

Greg, I agree that you're right that it shouldn't make a difference, and that my original post implied it wouldn't be "legal" if logged on two lines. It would be legal, but you might have to explain the intent.

I just suggest logging as a single flight as a way to further minimize hassle, it sure avoids having to educate folks who don't understand the regs! I know of a guy who had to have his CFI call the FSDO after a DE rejected a flight exactly like the one described here. Logged as multiple legs in the same airplane on the same day. Another earlier student had multiple legs logged on a single line and that did not trigger the same response from the same DE.

And as Greg correctly points out - you have to look in both the 61.1.b.3 section where X/C time is defined in relation to getting a new cert/rating, AND in the specifics of the aeronautical experience section for the cert/rating you're applying for.

 

[mjburian]

Now for the FAR references. I won't paste them here but:

61.1(b)(3) defines cross country as it applies to the PPL.

Notice that 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B) says "That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure".

A point of landing. It does not specify that it be 50 NM between landings, just that a landing be made more than 50 NM from the original point of departure. You can do as many stops as you like between the two and it all counts.



That is not true. See below.



Exactly. It all counts.



That is NOT true.



That is because that particular definition is in 61.1.

I appreciate the reference. And, if I understand you correctly I can fly 57C-RFD, pick up passengers and then fly to C55 for a landing (or touch-and-go?)... and then fly back to RFD for lunch. Later, I can fly back to 57C and it all counts as XC for the purposes of the instrument rating.

I'm picking up some hesitant passengers at RFD, and a quick flight out to C55 and back would be perfect for them... but I thought I'd have to go to C55 first.

This way I get to log all of the time without going out of my way to get in the landing at C55 before picking them up (resulting in less $$ spent).

Thanks for the help!

 

[ntbjounin]

ive been told by many sources the same thing. For the purposes of attaining a new rating or certification, only 50nm or more counts as XC. However, for logging purposes other than that any flight including a landing at an airport different from departure counts. I believe the 135 ops count that as xc, but i've heard that 121s only count >50nmers.

personally, my logbook has 2 XC sections. one for "all xc" and one for 50nm or more.

and yes i thoroughly agree that if you stop for lunch or even for the night... you can take off again and still count that as the same flight. thats more of a judgment call though.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

For the purposes of attaining a new rating or certification, only 50nm or more counts as XC.

Just to be clear, there does not need to be a leg that is more than 50 nautical just so long as there is a point of landing that is more than 50 from the original departure point. You can do a bunch of legs less than 50 and still have it count.

 

[EdFred]

Easy way: Take your sectional. Draw a 50nm radius circle around whatever airport you are going to start from. If you make ANY landing outside that circle, you may log THE ENTIRE FLIGHT as XC towards a rating.

You could have a 20 leg flight with 19 landings inside the circle, and the 20th landing outside the circle. All the time from your first takeoff (and included taxi time) until that 20th landing counts as XC time for a rating.

 

[poadeleted20]

Stay overnight at any point and it's still all XC for the Pvt/IR/Comm purpose. The FAA's Flight Standards people have already said, "The 'original point of departure' does not change with a new day or delay," and the FAA Counsel has yet to disagree.

 

[SkyHog]

Stay overnight at any point and it's still all XC for the Pvt/IR/Comm purpose. The FAA's Flight Standards people have already said, "The 'original point of departure' does not change with a new day or delay," and the FAA Counsel has yet to disagree.

Not trying to ornery, but wouldn't that mean that after one makes their first cross country flight, every flight from then on could be considered a cross country flight?

 

[poadeleted20]

Not trying to ornery, but wouldn't that mean that after one makes their first cross country flight, every flight from then on could be considered a cross country flight?

Not after one returns to the original point of departure.

That said, you can get pretty wacky with how you work this. If you do, the Flight Standards folks will apply the "duck test" to decide if it should count or not. Yes, you can argue all you want, but at the end of the day, the FAA gets to interpret its own rules, and based on the writings of the people who wrote this one, you'd best take a common sense approach to the matter of when the XC starts and ends.

 

[Ted]

When we were going over my logbook for my PPL, we pulled out a copy of the FARs and looked it up. The wording was as follows:

To log XC time for purposes of earning your private endorsement, the two airports must be at least 50 nm apart. After you have your PPL, it said that you can log any two airports more than 25 nm apart as XC time, however I didn't recall if that was time that counted towards your IR (i.e. XC for IR was only counted if the two airports were more than 50 nm apart). I can't see where there would be a distinction.

For IR, you need 50 PIC XC hours. That's not a big deal, really, especially if, as part of your IR training, you do various XCs to airports at least 50 nm away (and you need 40 instrument hours total to get your IR). This is a logical thing to do, as it will allow you to practice more approaches under different kinds of scenarios. Remember, once you have your PPL any time with an instructor, including towards your IR, counts as both dual received and PIC, so those are PIC XC hours.

Personally, if it's under 50 nm, I don't log it as XC time simply because if the FAA ever comes down on me for some reason, I don't want them complaining about me having claimed time that was not legitimate, and thus my ratings being invalid. Then again, I end up flying enough (and it's generally long enough distances) that I'm not worried about meeting that 50 hour requirement by the time I'm ready for my checkride. Realistically? It probably doesn't matter, this is just what my instructor and I found in the FARs, and it was worded in such a way that I've just decided I'm sticking to >50 nm for any time I want to log as XC. Most of my trips are longer than that, anyway.

 

[EdFred]

Ted, you may want to read the 25 and 50nm rule a bit more carefully. But, I, like you only log anything over 50 as XC.

 

[Skip Miller]

You could have a 20 leg flight with 19 landings inside the circle, and the 20th landing outside the circle. All the time from your first takeoff (and included taxi time) until that 20th landing counts as XC time for a rating.

Correct. And to take this to the end of logic and perhaps beyond, you can launch on your X-C, fly 50.1 miles and do one touch and go, return to home base and do as many more touch and gos as your fuel supply permits. Start to finish it is all X-C time. But I do think that this may not pass the Duck Test if the DPE gets deep into your log book.

When you fly your x-c's, pull the throttle back and fly at 55% power (or low cruise, whatever that is). Why race through when you are trying to build time?

-Skip

 

[TMetzinger]

On the subject of 135/121 operators reviewing your logbook, do they even bother about X/C time? Given that if you're going to be a 121 captain you need to have the ATP (with it's X/C requirements), do they even pay attention to X/C time or do they focus more on PIC time, instrument time, and time in type(s)?

I only log X/C as 50 NM+ as well, even though my next cert will be the ATP. I've got enough X/C time as it is and don't see any value in logging the shorter flights.

 

[poadeleted20]

When we were going over my logbook for my PPL, we pulled out a copy of the FARs and looked it up. The wording was as follows:

To log XC time for purposes of earning your private endorsement, the two airports must be at least 50 nm apart. After you have your PPL, it said that you can log any two airports more than 25 nm apart as XC time, however I didn't recall if that was time that counted towards your IR (i.e. XC for IR was only counted if the two airports were more than 50 nm apart).

I really don't think that was the wording. Rather, it think it was as follows:

(3) Cross-country time means—
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B ) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B ) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B ) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101(c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under §61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

For most of us here, the only relevant subparagraphs are i and ii, and a few more advanced types will be interested in vi. Even so, there is a definite difference between what I quoted and what Ted wrote.

For IR, you need 50 PIC XC hours. That's not a big deal, really, especially if, as part of your IR training, you do various XCs to airports at least 50 nm away (and you need 40 instrument hours total to get your IR). This is a logical thing to do, as it will allow you to practice more approaches under different kinds of scenarios. Remember, once you have your PPL any time with an instructor, including towards your IR, counts as both dual received and PIC, so those are PIC XC hours.

Assuming you do a landing more than (not just "at least") 50 nm from your original point of departure, and just shooting an approach to a low approach won't fill that square -- your wheels must touch the ground.

Personally, if it's under 50 nm, I don't log it as XC time simply because if the FAA ever comes down on me for some reason, I don't want them complaining about me having claimed time that was not legitimate, and thus my ratings being invalid.

I wouldn't worry about that as long as the hours you claimed for the Pvt/IR/Comm were legitimate, and you're shorting yourself hours which could be used to qualify as a PIC under Part 135.

 

[poadeleted20]

On the subject of 135/121 operators reviewing your logbook, do they even bother about X/C time?

For 135 operators, you betcha, since you need 100 XC to be a VFR captain and 500 XC to be an IFR captain. Note, however, that this XC time need only meet the basic XC rule, not the 50nm landing requirement for Pvt/IR/Comm.

 

[Ted]

I really don't think that was the wording. Rather, it think it was as follows:

Hmm, now that makes me wonder where the 25 nm came from. I definitely remember seeing it in there. Either way, if that's the FAR then I suppose I stand corrected.

Assuming you do a landing more than (not just "at least") 50 nm from your original point of departure, and just shooting an approach to a low approach won't fill that square -- your wheels must touch the ground.

Good point. For me that's not really a big deal, I have a tendency to go places because I want to land there.

I wouldn't worry about that as long as the hours you claimed for the Pvt/IR/Comm were legitimate, and you're shorting yourself hours which could be used to qualify as a PIC under Part 135.

Well, while Part 135 might be a goal someday, I'm a good ways off on that. The amount of flying I do, and the fact that it all tends to be mission-oriented (i.e. I have a destination) makes none of this a big concern for me. The number of trips I make that are <50 nm are few and far between, anyways.

 

[SkyHog]

Hmm, now that makes me wonder where the 25 nm came from. I definitely remember seeing it in there. Either way, if that's the FAR then I suppose I stand corrected.

Look at Helicopter regs...I'll bet y'all got confused

61.109(c)(4)(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

 

[TMetzinger]

Ted, I imagine that your flying is somewhat like mine, by the time you have the 1200 total to be a 135 IFR PIC, you'll have way more than 500 X/C, all over 50 NM.
At 1141 total, I've got 812 X/C.

Anybody know any eastern 135 operators hiring for weekend work?

 

[Ted]

Ted, I imagine that your flying is somewhat like mine, by the time you have the 1200 total to be a 135 IFR PIC, you'll have way more than 500 X/C, all over 50 NM.

You got it. If I have under 500 XC over 50 nm by the time I hit 1200 TT, it will have indicated a drastic change in my flying habits, and one that I just don't foresee occurring. I'd believe it taking me a while to get to 1200 TT, though.

Got my bill for last month's use of the Archer... 18 hours. That includes at least one XC where the destination was 200 nm away. That's pretty standard for my flying.

 

[ActiveAir]

Sorry to bring this up again, as I see it's been discussed quite a bit, but I have a different scenario that I couldn't find had been discussed. The scenario:

I do the following without a break other than to pick up a passenger;

1. take off at A and fly 10nm to B and land (or preferrably touch and go)
2. take off at B and fly 55nm to C, full stop, pick up passenger
3. take off at C and fly 45 nm back to A.

How do I (can I) log it in order to qualify for IFR training/rating reqs.? A, my original point of takeoff is only 45 nm "straight line" from my final destination, C. Only my second leg is 50+ nm:

1. Log all time as x-cntry
2. Log only B-C and return C-A as x-cntry, and A-B on sep. line(s)
3. Log only B-C as x-cntry, and other legs on sep. lines
4. Something different and that would be....

I'm thinking of doing this tomorrow, and probably many times in the future. I hoping the adding the initial 10nm, will qualify it for x-cntry. Direct fly is 5 nm short..... Unless, the total there and back (=90nm) would cut it, but I don't think it will. I'll be using pilotage and navaids.

 

[RMCN172RG]

This is not XC since C is only 45 nm from A the original departure

 

[ActiveAir]

This is not XC since C is only 45 nm from A the original departure

This makes no sense to me. So, if I spend the night or week at B, then B-C is x-cntry?

The flight is 110nm total, w/one leg at 55nm. That w/pilotage, navaid should qual. (although, I wasn't asked my op. when the regs. were written).

 

[RMCN172RG]

This makes no sense to me. So, if I spend the night or week at B, then B-C is x-cntry?

The flight is 110nm total, w/one leg at 55nm. That w/pilotage, navaid should qual. (although, I wasn't asked my op. when the regs. were written).

B-C is cross country if B is your point of origin. To be XC from point A you have to land at least 50 nm from point A.

 

[mjburian]

1. take off at A and fly 10nm to B and land (or preferrably touch and go)
2. take off at B and fly 55nm to C, full stop, pick up passenger
3. take off at C and fly 45 nm back to A.

How do I (can I) log it in order to qualify for IFR training/rating reqs.? A, my original point of takeoff is only 45 nm "straight line" from my final destination, C. Only my second leg is 50+ nm:

1. Log all time as x-cntry
2. Log only B-C and return C-A as x-cntry, and A-B on sep. line(s)
3. Log only B-C as x-cntry, and other legs on sep. lines
4. Something different and that would be....

Any chance you can use the time it will take to fly the 10nm to A and find a place 5nm further than B to land at (either before or after you land at B, doesn't matter)? That seems like the best option, because then you can log the entire flight (all 3 legs) as cross country for the purposes of the IR.

Basically, land at a point that is at least 50nm from A and the whole thing counts. Otherwise, I think you could log B-C as XC... but nothing more.

Somebody please correct me if I have this wrong.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I believe the 135 ops count that as xc, but i've heard that 121s only count >50nmers.

Part 121 counts any trip from one airport to the next as cross country.

 

[ActiveAir]

Any chance you can use the time it will take to fly the 10nm to A and find a place 5nm further than B to land at (either before or after you land at B, doesn't matter)? That seems like the best option, because then you can log the entire flight (all 3 legs) as cross country for the purposes of the IR.

Basically, land at a point that is at least 50nm from A and the whole thing counts. Otherwise, I think you could log B-C as XC... but nothing more.

Somebody please correct me if I have this wrong.

It appears that I may have to do this, although a 50+nm leg should count. Hoping to get some answers. It is not convenient for me to fly just 5nm past the airport, as I then get into more rugged terrain.

 

[ActiveAir]

So, I should drive my car to point A, and rent from there, so that it can be my point of origin? Seems non-sensical. What if I land full stop at B, list A-B on one line as a separate flight, then B-C and C-A on another line as x-cntry? Lame. I guess it's about the definition of "point of origin".

 

[Skip Miller]

although a 50+nm leg should count.

No it shouldn't. Why do you think it should?

The reg clearly says 50 miles from the OPD. It does not say one leg greater than 50 miles.

-Skip

 

[ActiveAir]

No it shouldn't. Why do you think it should?

The reg clearly says 50 miles from the OPD. It does not say one leg greater than 50 miles.

-Skip

Because 50 nm would require pilotage and perhaps navaid. What's the difference between 50 nm from the PO and a 50nm leg? Wouldn't the same skill be involved? Was the initial rule written with the thought in mind that there would only be one destination? It seems to me that time and miles covered offer up the same, if not more, in the way of experience. The only argument is that "it is just the way it is written". It that's the final argument, then it is what it is, while not making much sense to this confused and annoyed PP.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sorry to bring this up again, as I see it's been discussed quite a bit, but I have a different scenario that I couldn't find had been discussed. The scenario:

I do the following without a break other than to pick up a passenger;

1. take off at A and fly 10nm to B and land (or preferrably touch and go)
2. take off at B and fly 55nm to C, full stop, pick up passenger
3. take off at C and fly 45 nm back to A.

How do I (can I) log it in order to qualify for IFR training/rating reqs.?

You can't, because you never made a landing more than 50 nm from the original point of departure (Point A). Reference 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B ). End of story unless you want to lie.

 

[ActiveAir]

You can't, because you never made a landing more than 50 nm from the original point of departure (Point A). Reference 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B ). End of story unless you want to lie.

Grrr.......thanks, Ron. I guess it is what it is. Lying is not an option, so I will figure out how to make those 45nm trips a little longer from the PoO to meet/surpass the regs. even when I have more than 50nm in any one of the legs....

 

[sheldon957]

2. Log only B-C and return C-A as x-cntry, and A-B on sep. line(s)

Bingo! Except I would log the B-C & C-A on one line.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Bingo! Except I would log the B-C & C-A on one line.

Might not stand up under close scrutiny. However, if one just didn't log A-B...

 

[poadeleted20]

Might not stand up under close scrutiny. However, if one just didn't log A-B...

...you'd still be making a deceptive, if not false, entry. In any event, you would not be accomplishing what the FAA wants accomplished as part of your training and experience. Even if it means going a bit farther out on your way to pick up your buddy and doing a T&G there before backtracking to B, I think you'll live happier with the clear conscience that comes of knowing you did it right.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

...you'd still be making a deceptive, if not false, entry. In any event, you would not be accomplishing what the FAA wants accomplished as part of your training and experience.

Why is that any different than if I just drove to B and rented from there to go to C?