Logging Time

[mhockey21]

I have a question regarding logging time with some friends of mine. I'm the only one with a high performance endorsement and were looking to take the 182T up this weekend. We will be flying IFR and I wanna do some time under the hood, can the person sitting in the right seat log time as SIC I'm 100% sure they can't log PIC correct? I'm really unfamiliar with SIC because I have never dealt with it. Part of me says they can and part of me says they can't, so can someone clarify for me?

 

[mantakos]

The only way a safety pilot can log PIC is if he is acting PIC while you're flying under the hood. If the safety pilot isn't endorsed for HP then he can't be acting PIC.

My understanding is that a safety pilot may log SIC, but if you're flying under an IFR clearance, he would need to have an IR.
-harry

 

[mhockey21]

So given my friends are IR they would be good to log SIC then?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have a question regarding logging time with some friends of mine. I'm the only one with a high performance endorsement and were looking to take the 182T up this weekend. We will be flying IFR and I wanna do some time under the hood, can the person sitting in the right seat log time as SIC I'm 100% sure they can't log PIC correct? I'm really unfamiliar with SIC because I have never dealt with it. Part of me says they can and part of me says they can't, so can someone clarify for me?

So given my friends are IR they would be good to log SIC then?

One question: Are you instrument rated? It's not entirely clear from the question.

If the answer is no, then you can't do the flight under IFR at all: If you don't have an instrument rating, and your friends don't have high performance endorsements, then you have nobody who can legally act as PIC.

Now - Assuming you ARE instrument rated, I'll move on to the logging question. To clarify the situation, you are instrument rated and current, high performance endorsed, and legal to act as PIC in every other way and you will be acting as PIC for the flight. You're going to fly a 182 IFR and do some hood work.

One final assumption here is that you will be the only person flying the airplane, and not letting anyone else touch the controls?

On to the questions:

First of all, you're correct that they can't log PIC, but it has nothing to do with their lack of a high performance endorsement and everything to do with the fact that they're not actually flying the airplane.

Second of all, yes they can log SIC for the time you are under the hood, under FAR 61.51(f)(2):

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

The "or" at the end of (f)(1) makes it irrelevant, so only (f)(2) needs to be satisfied. Since "the regulations under which the flight is being conducted," namely 91.109(b)(1) requires a safety pilot, two pilots are required and thus your friend can log SIC.

b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

Note also that this reg does NOT specify that the safety pilot be qualified to act as pilot in command, thus the safety pilot does not need a high performance endorsement, they simply need at least a Private Pilot certificate and Airplane Single Engine Land category and class.

Finally, the safety pilot DOES need a valid medical certificate (61.23(a)(3)(i)).

In review: You are at least a private pilot with ASEL and instrument rating, high performance endorsement, current medical certificate, with currency on instruments, flight review, and 90-day takeoffs and landings and you are qualified to act as PIC. You are also the sole manipulator of the flight controls. Your friend is private ASEL with instrument rating and current medical. You're flying IFR in a 182.

You will be the acting PIC and you can log the entire flight as PIC as sole manipulator of the controls under 61.51(e)(1)(i). Your friend can log SIC for the time you are under the hood under 61.51(f)(2).

(OK CFI's, how'd I do?)

 

[JeffDG]

One other thing...

If you are operating under IFR (rules, not conditions), then if you have the hood on, the right seater must be instrument rated.

 

[n12365]

First of all, you're correct that they can't log PIC, but it has nothing to do with their lack of a high performance endorsement and everything to do with the fact that they're not actually flying the airplane.

I think you are confusing acting as PIC and logging PIC. If the safety pilot meets all of the requirements to act as PIC and both pilots agree that the safety pilot is going to act as PIC, then both the safety pilot and the pilot under the hood can log PIC time. Since his friend is IR, the only thing preventing him from being PIC is the lack of a high performance endorsement (assuming he meets all of the other requirements for being PIC).

 

[poadeleted20]

I think you are confusing acting as PIC and logging PIC. If the safety pilot meets all of the requirements to act as PIC

He's already said his friends lack the HP endorsement, and thus do not meet those requirements, so they can neither act as PIC at any time nor log PIC time while the OP is flying the plane.

 

[poadeleted20]

So given my friends are IR they would be good to log SIC then?

The issue of logging the SIC time is independent of having the IR. If you're flying under instrument flight rules with a vision restricting device on, your safety pilot must have an instrument rating regardless of whether you're in VMC or IMC. If you're doing it under VFR (that's flying under the VFR rules, not IFR in VMC), your safety pilot need not have an IR. Either way, they can log the time you're under the hood as SIC time (assuming the meet the other safety pilot requirements of the relevant category/class ratings on their Private or higher and a valid medical certificate).

 

[EdFred]

Loads gun.
Holds against my head.
Pulls trigger.

 

[n12365]

He's already said his friends lack the HP endorsement, and thus do not meet those requirements, so they can neither act as PIC at any time nor log PIC time while the OP is flying the plane.

I agree. My point was that it is the HP endorsement that is preventing it, not that they're "not actually flying the airplane".

Ryan

 

[JeffDG]

I agree. My point was that it is the HP endorsement that is preventing it, not that they're "not actually flying the airplane".

Ryan

But that's not correct. Someone without an HP endorsement can LOG PIC in a HP plane when they are actually flying it.

 

[ntbjounin]

I think you are confusing acting as PIC and logging PIC. If the safety pilot meets all of the requirements to act as PIC and both pilots agree that the safety pilot is going to act as PIC, then both the safety pilot and the pilot under the hood can log PIC time. Since his friend is IR, the only thing preventing him from being PIC is the lack of a high performance endorsement (assuming he meets all of the other requirements for being PIC).

Sorry to disappoint, but your second point is incorrect. You are right about the difference in Logging vs Acting PIC. Safety pilots must be appropriately RATED in the aircraft. This has nothing to do with the endorsements... He may log PIC but not ACT as PIC for that time he is a safety pilot.

It's a clear question of Loggable vs Acting... One requires endorsements, one doesnt.

yes someone will tell me to post a quote from the FAR backing it up... Well, this doesnt affect me, but when it did I looked very carefully and I'm 100% sure on this.... so i dont feel like looking it up...

 

[JeffDG]

Sorry to disappoint, but your second point is incorrect. You are right about the difference in Logging vs Acting PIC. Safety pilots must be appropriately RATED in the aircraft. This has nothing to do with the endorsements... He may log PIC but not ACT as PIC for that time he is a safety pilot.

It's a clear question of Loggable vs Acting... One requires endorsements, one doesnt.

yes someone will tell me to post a quote from the FAR backing it up... Well, this doesnt affect me, but when it did I looked very carefully and I'm 100% sure on this.... so i dont feel like looking it up...

A safety pilot who is not flying cannot log PIC time unless they are also Acting as PIC.

Look at the logging rules. You can log PIC is you are the sole manipulator of the controls (and have category, class and type) or if you are acting as PIC in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot (which while the hood is on, the safety pilot qualifies).

 

[ntbjounin]

sorry jeff. the FAR differentiates between logging and acting.. and it is in this scenario where both can log PIC..... but oh well, no point in arguing...

 

[Fearless Tower]

Hmmm, this is getting ugly.....maybe we should change the discussion to whether or not you should lean your engine on the ground? Or perhaps three points vs wheel landings? Anyone???

 

[poadeleted20]

He may log PIC...

...but only while he is actually flying the plane (sole manipulator). The rest of the time the PIC is hooded, all he can log is SIC, and he can never act as PIC (due to lack of HP endorsement). The relevant reg is 61.51(e).

Of course, if you think there is some clause of 61.51(e) which permits a non-instructor safety pilot not acting as PIC to log PIC time while not flying the plane (sole manipulator), I'd be interested to see which one you think it is. Just highlight it from the choices below in your reply.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided--
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B ) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation--
(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Takeoff and departure;
(4) In-flight maneuvers;
(5) Instrument procedures;
(6) Landings and approaches to landings;
(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;
(8) Emergency procedures; and
(9) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds--
(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.
(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.]
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot--
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under Sec. 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating

 

[N801BH]

How about what would happen if you put a plane on a treadmill and tried to take off ??

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Hmmm, this is getting ugly.....maybe we should change the discussion to whether or not you should lean your engine on the ground? Or perhaps three points vs wheel landings? Anyone???

I prefer wheel landings myself. Particularly with a crosswind since I spend less time "floating" over the runway. Put the mains down.

 

[JeffDG]

sorry jeff. the FAR differentiates between logging and acting.. and it is in this scenario where both can log PIC..... but oh well, no point in arguing...

Oh, I fully understand the difference between the two.

The logging reg is clear about when you can log PIC, and Ron's quoted it above. If you're not flying the plane, you must be acting as PIC to log PIC.

If you're the one flying, then there's no need to be acting as PIC to log it.

 

[ntbjounin]

Oh, I fully understand the difference between the two.

The logging reg is clear about when you can log PIC, and Ron's quoted it above. If you're not flying the plane, you must be acting as PIC to log PIC.

If you're the one flying, then there's no need to be acting as PIC to log it.

bah i see what your saying..... i dunno why that wasnt sinking into my head... i just landed from a 3 hr flight 2.6 in the soup... i was pooped... now i have had a nap, and actually comprehend what you're saying!
my bad... yes the way you worded it just now clears it up, and i wont argue with that.
sorry bout that... i woke up at 4am..

 

[JeffDG]

bah i see what your saying..... i dunno why that wasnt sinking into my head... i just landed from a 3 hr flight 2.6 in the soup... i was pooped... now i have had a nap, and actually comprehend what you're saying!
my bad... yes the way you worded it just now clears it up, and i wont argue with that.
sorry bout that... i woke up at 4am..

 

[poadeleted20]

The logging reg is clear about when you can log PIC, and Ron's quoted it above. If you're not flying the plane, you must be acting as PIC to log PIC.

Not always -- an instructor can log PIC time without being the PIC. 61.51(e)(3). Of course, under the Hamre doctrine, the instructor will be held responsible as though s/he were the PIC if anything goes wrong, but that's another story entirely. And the new subparagraph (e)(iv) only requires that you be "perform[ing] the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command," not that you be sole manipulator at all times -- one theorizes that you could be supervising the flying of your simulated SIC while logging PIC time under this clause.

If you're the one flying, then there's no need to be acting as PIC to log it.

Right. There are other stipulations, but being the PIC isn't necessary if you meet them.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think you are confusing acting as PIC and logging PIC. If the safety pilot meets all of the requirements to act as PIC and both pilots agree that the safety pilot is going to act as PIC, then both the safety pilot and the pilot under the hood can log PIC time. Since his friend is IR, the only thing preventing him from being PIC is the lack of a high performance endorsement (assuming he meets all of the other requirements for being PIC).

No, I'm not. OP said their friend does not have a HP endorsement, therefore the friend cannot act as PIC. The question was whether the friend could log SIC, and the reason I put in the passage you quoted was because they also asked if the friend could log PIC. The answer would be "No, unless they are sole manipulator of the controls for a portion of the flight." The friend could log PIC despite the lack of a high performance endorsement if they were sole manipulator of the controls. 61.51(e)(1)(i).

 

[JeffDG]

Not always -- an instructor can log PIC time without being the PIC. 61.51(e)(3). Of course, under the Hamre doctrine, the instructor will be held responsible as though s/he were the PIC if anything goes wrong, but that's another story entirely. And the new subparagraph (e)(iv) only requires that you be "perform[ing] the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command," not that you be sole manipulator at all times -- one theorizes that you could be supervising the flying of your simulated SIC while logging PIC time under this clause.

Right. There are other stipulations, but being the PIC isn't necessary if you meet them.

Good catch on the CFI one...but under Hamre, in order to log the PIC it has to be instructional, and if it's instructional, the CFI is de facto acting as the PIC as far as the FAA is concerned (whether they're de jure acting as PIC or not)

 

[n12365]

No, I'm not. OP said their friend does not have a HP endorsement, therefore the friend cannot act as PIC. The question was whether the friend could log SIC, and the reason I put in the passage you quoted was because they also asked if the friend could log PIC. The answer would be "No, unless they are sole manipulator of the controls for a portion of the flight." The friend could log PIC despite the lack of a high performance endorsement if they were sole manipulator of the controls. 61.51(e)(1)(i).

But in this case, the friend is acting as a safety pilot, not manipulating the controls.

I think that I am starting to agree with Ed on this issue. The pdf he links in his signature does a great job of simplifying what you can log.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

But in this case, the friend is acting as a safety pilot, not manipulating the controls.

Right. So he can't log PIC.

The reason I put that in there was that the OP implied the friend wouldn't be logging PIC because he didn't have the high performance endorsement. I was trying to clarify that the friend wouldn't be logging PIC, but not for that reason - The friend wouldn't be logging PIC because he was not sole manipulator of the controls.

 

[mhockey21]

Thanks for all the help guys, didn't know I would be starting such a big debate!

 

[poadeleted20]

...but under Hamre, in order to log the PIC it has to be instructional, and if it's instructional, the CFI is de facto acting as the PIC as far as the FAA is concerned (whether they're de jure acting as PIC or not)

Hamre only deals with who may be held accountable for violations of the FAR's. It does not address logging PIC time, and it does not change the fact that under certain circumstances, an instructor can give flight training without being fully qualified and current to act as PIC.

 

[poadeleted20]

But in this case, the friend is acting as a safety pilot, not manipulating the controls.

If the non-HP-endorsed friend is not manipulating the controls, then the friend can only log SIC time.

 

[poadeleted20]

Right. So he can't log PIC.

The reason I put that in there was that the OP implied the friend wouldn't be logging PIC because he didn't have the high performance endorsement. I was trying to clarify that the friend wouldn't be logging PIC, but not for that reason - The friend wouldn't be logging PIC because he was not sole manipulator of the controls.

...and not acting as PIC for the flight (because s/he is not qualified to do so by lack of the HP endorsement).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

...and not acting as PIC for the flight (because s/he is not qualified to do so by lack of the HP endorsement).

Exactly - But I think I've said that about three times already.

I think Jay might have been right about his reading comprehension comment a couple weeks ago...

 

[ajstoner21]

The safety pilot needs to be rated for the category and class aircraft to be a safety pilot. Airplane Single Engine Land. It is my understanding that, although it is a high performance aircraft, which you are endorsed to fly, you are acting as PIC. If your safety pilot is appropriately rated and endorsed, they can log PIC time as well. However, since your safety pilot is not endorsed for high performance, they can not log PIC time, however, they can be a safety pilot.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The safety pilot needs to be rated for the category and class aircraft to be a safety pilot. Airplane Single Engine Land. It is my understanding that, although it is a high performance aircraft, which you are endorsed to fly, you are acting as PIC. If your safety pilot is appropriately rated and endorsed, they can log PIC time as well. However, since your safety pilot is not endorsed for high performance, they can not log PIC time, however, they can be a safety pilot.

Careful - If the safety pilot were rated and endorsed, they could log PIC time too, IF they were the PIC. Just having the endorsement does not make them PIC.

 

[JeffDG]

Hamre only deals with who may be held accountable for violations of the FAR's. It does not address logging PIC time, and it does not change the fact that under certain circumstances, an instructor can give flight training without being fully qualified and current to act as PIC.

I know...what I'm saying is that it becomes a distinction without a difference. You have all the liabilities of a PIC whether you're qualified to act as PIC or not.

Hamre essentially says "Yeah, we know you couldn't legally be PIC, but we're going to just treat you as if you were PIC anyways and slap you around some, OK?" That's what I mean by being the de facto PIC but not de jure PIC.

 

[poadeleted20]

The safety pilot needs to be rated for the category and class aircraft to be a safety pilot. Airplane Single Engine Land. It is my understanding that, although it is a high performance aircraft, which you are endorsed to fly, you are acting as PIC. If your safety pilot is appropriately rated and endorsed, they can log PIC time as well.

There are two ways the safety pilot can log PIC time:

1. The safety pilot is rated and endorsed and otherwise fully qualified to act as PIC for the flight with a passenger, and acting as PIC. In that case, the safety pilot can log PIC time for the time the flying pilot is hooded. However, unless the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is acting as PIC, the safety pilot cannot log PIC time as long as the other pilot is flying.
2. The safety pilot is rated and is actually flying the plane (sole manipulator) -- whether qualified to act as PIC or not, and whether acting as PIC or not. In that case, the safety pilot can log PIC time for the time s/he is flying the plane, and it doesn't matter which pilot is acting as PIC.

However, since your safety pilot is not endorsed for high performance, they can not log PIC time, however, they can be a safety pilot.

Since the safety pilot is "rated," s/he can still log PIC time for any time s/he has the controls (i.e., is the sole manipulator). That might only be the time it takes for the hooded pilot to don/doff the hood, or takes a break for a drink of water or whatever, and it might only be a tenth or two somewhere during the flight, but it would be loggable as PIC time even though the safety pilot lacks the HP endorsement and isn't acting as PIC.

 

[poadeleted20]

I know...what I'm saying is that it becomes a distinction without a difference. You have all the liabilities of a PIC whether you're qualified to act as PIC or not.

Yup -- which is why I carry appropriate insurance (non-owned hull/liability, and AOPA Legal plan for CFI's) and make sure the trainee understands I will not allow them to do anything for which my certificate may be taken whether I'm designated as PIC or not. Some folks may not care to accept that, and they can find another instructor. However, every trainee I've ever flown with has been happy to accept that.

Hamre essentially says "Yeah, we know you couldn't legally be PIC, but we're going to just treat you as if you were PIC anyways and slap you around some, OK?"

I like your description.

 

[ajstoner21]

Cap'n Ron - Thanks! You have definitely cleared up some of my confusion. What you wrote out makes a lot of sense.