Logging Taildragger time with no endorsement

dell30rb

dell30rb

Final Approach
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Ren
I am filling out an insurance form for a quote, my question is - can I log time as PIC in a cub with no tailwheel endorsement?

I have about 3 hrs in the airplane as sole manipulator of the controls, with a high tailwheel time private pilot on board to instruct and keep us on the runway :)
 
The dirty little secret is that insurance companies are not the FAA and you can tell them whatever you want.

They'll be very interested if you should have a claim, however, which may apply a rigor unknown to bare minimum, little-white-lie types.
 
dmccormack said:
The dirty little secret is that insurance companies are not the FAA and you can tell them whatever you want.

They'll be very interested if you should have a claim, however, which may apply a rigor unknown to bare minimum, little-white-lie types.
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Fully aware, which is why I want to clarify this before I put 3 hours of time on my insurance form, or in my logbook. I don't guess it will make much of a difference but I figure it looks better than zero.

I know I can log time as PIC for sole maniuplator in anything I am rated.. technically I have the rating to fly the plane but is the endorsement required as well
 
I've always heard this line about insurance companies not honoring claims, but have yet to see or even hear about an actual case of an insurance company actually doing so. It seems a bit counterintuitive; I can't see an insurance company trying to rip off someone in a community as small and erudite as ours.
 
Ren, heck yeah!

The Cub is a single-engine land aircraft, and you have an SEL rating, so you can log the time. FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) applies:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Of course, as others have hinted, it wouldn't be wise to solo without the endorsement if you care about insurance coverage. :)
 
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whifferdill said:
Ren, heck yeah!

The Cub is a single-engine land aircraft, and you have an SEL rating, so you can log the time. FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) applies:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
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Thanks, i'll go ahead and log the time we flew. Craig sent me an insurance form for the cub today, hopefully the premium increase is not so bad, though from talking to you on Sunday it sounds like it will not break the bank!

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The FAA Chief Counsel wrote a long time ago that "ratings" are the category and class listed in 61.5, and types from other FAA Orders, which are printed on your pilot certificate, and that 61.31 additional training endorsements in your logbook are not "ratings." To log PIC time under 61.51(e)(1)(i), you need only be "rated," not "endorsed." You only have to be "endorsed" to act as PIC, not to log PIC time.

That said, what they insurance company will accept is entirely up to the insurance company, not the FAA, so if it really matters for that application, ask the insurance company.
 
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As the others have said, if you are ASEL rated, and sole manipulator you can log PIC.
 
dell30rb said:
I am filling out an insurance form for a quote, my question is - can I log time as PIC in a cub with no tailwheel endorsement?

I have about 3 hrs in the airplane as sole manipulator of the controls, with a high tailwheel time private pilot on board to instruct and keep us on the runway :)
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Is the insurance company actually asking for PIC tailwheel time...or just tailwheel time?

I have AVEMCO for my 170 and they only ever cared about tailwheel in general.
 
not PIC, just time in general

One more question, does an instrument checkride count as a BFR. I have not even been flying long enough to need one yet.
 
Anything that adds a new rating to your certificate acts as a flight review...you can restart the clock.
 
bgfyankee said:
Anything that adds a new rating to your certificate acts as a flight review...you can restart the clock.
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Not sure what that has to do with this discussion, but it's only your pilot certificate. Additional ratings to your flight instructor certificate do not.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not sure what that has to do with this discussion, but it's only your pilot certificate. Additional ratings to your flight instructor certificate do not.
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The form asks when my last BFR was. I've never had one, not sure if I should put the date of my last checkride there or not.

Its AOPA insurance fyi
 
No, and 3 hrs won't make a difference to your insurance rates, takes a minimum of 25 in type for that to start.
 
dell30rb said:
not PIC, just time in general

One more question, does an instrument checkride count as a BFR. I have not even been flying long enough to need one yet.
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In a practical sense, yes, any check ride outside an instructor ride resets the calendar for when a flight review is done.
 
Henning said:
No, and 3 hrs won't make a difference to your insurance rates, takes a minimum of 25 in type for that to start.
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25 does seem to be a magic number, but I would ad that I saw my first drop in rates when I hit 25 overall tailwheel, not in type. Got another drop when I hit 50.
 
Fearless Tower said:
25 does seem to be a magic number, but I would ad that I saw my first drop in rates when I hit 25 overall tailwheel, not in type. Got another drop when I hit 50.
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At 100 you typically bottom out on the big cuts. With tail daggers they often require 25 in type before pax, typically 15 dual and 10 solo, if you have a small amount of other TW time like for a rating before you buy, and they give you the same discount.
 
I have no tail wheel endorsement and can ACT as PIC in a Cub all day long.


Of course, I soloed in a Cub in 1970, so I'm a grandfather. :D
 
You may want to add a new column to your log book when you put in the tailwheel stuff. That's what the CFI did when I had a taildragger lesson.
 
"Conventional Gear" is how my column is titled. Even though it's far from the convention these days. ;)
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
You may want to add a new column to your log book when you put in the tailwheel stuff. That's what the CFI did when I had a taildragger lesson.
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My tailwheel CFI just did it without asking, and I'm not too happy about it. I had something else lined up for that column, but I think I can make it work anyway.

I typically just log the class/category of aircraft in my paper log. Then my digital logbook has all the other goodies. Complex, HP, Tailwheel, etc...
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
My tailwheel CFI just did it without asking, and I'm not too happy about it. I had something else lined up for that column, but I think I can make it work anyway.

I typically just log the class/category of aircraft in my paper log. Then my digital logbook has all the other goodies. Complex, HP, Tailwheel, etc...
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There is nothing preventing you from making an end of column notation on one page and starting a new heading on the next.
 
denverpilot said:
Or getting a bigger logbook. Heh heh. More columns!
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There's a counter school of thought to this issue. With many small log books, if the come under review, you can limit your exposure to examination. Those dudes can go through a log book like you wouldn't believe tracking duty times in their head even as they scan pages.
 
Henning said:
There's a counter school of thought to this issue. With many small log books, if the come under review, you can limit your exposure to examination. Those dudes can go through a log book like you wouldn't believe tracking duty times in their head even as they scan pages.
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Unless you fly professionally, duty time isn't an issue, and if you are, there are plenty of other records they can use. There are plenty of non-FAA reasons for tracking all sorts of time, including tailwheel, retractable, high performance, instrument training given, you name it. If you have to go back through a stack of old logs to find that data when the question comes up on an insurance or job application, you'll appreciate having all those extra columns used and totaled.
 
Ron Levy said:
Unless you fly professionally, duty time isn't an issue, and if you are, there are plenty of other records they can use. There are plenty of non-FAA reasons for tracking all sorts of time, including tailwheel, retractable, high performance, instrument training given, you name it. If you have to go back through a stack of old logs to find that data when the question comes up on an insurance or job application, you'll appreciate having all those extra columns used and totaled.
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No reason columns totaled can't carry book to book, that's what the people I know do, and the insurance is just fine with your word or a page print from an electronic log.
 
Henning said:
There is nothing preventing you from making an end of column notation on one page and starting a new heading on the next.
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I like to have a clean, neat logbook. Nothing bugs me more than people who are constantly scratching stuff out. I'll just let it ride, it's not that big of a deal. I only needed that column for either LTA-Free Balloon or Gyrocopter.
 
I love my log book just the way it is. It was neat until I took over (my CFI was super strict about that). Now I write stories and have other pilots sign and stuff. I have David White Airlines and Tim Winters Airlines in there, for ****s and giggles.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
You may want to add a new column to your log book when you put in the tailwheel stuff. That's what the CFI did when I had a taildragger lesson.
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My electronic logbook will break that out in a report for me. No extra column needed. I use LogBook Pro.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I love my log book just the way it is. It was neat until I took over (my CFI was super strict about that). Now I write stories and have other pilots sign and stuff. I have David White Airlines and Tim Winters Airlines in there, for ****s and giggles.
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It's your logbook, many pilots use it as a diary. No major issues unless you are planning to go pro, and then it may not matter anyway.
 
dell30rb said:
The form asks when my last BFR was. I've never had one, not sure if I should put the date of my last checkride there or not.

Its AOPA insurance fyi
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Use your last check ride date for a pilot certificate or instrument rating if it is within 2 years.
Check rides for CFI or CFII or renewals do not count.
 
BillTIZ said:
It's your logbook, many pilots use it as a diary. No major issues unless you are planning to go pro, and then it may not matter anyway.
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I was asked for my log book for one job, they looked at the last 3 pages for a minute, photocopied the last and that was that.
 
I'm sure there must be people who do, but I've never heard of a pilot logging their duty time. The company has those records, though.
 
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