Logging PIC with no BFR

Katamarino

Katamarino

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Katamarino
I have a friend who is fully legal to fly (licence, medical etc), except he is out of BFR currency. Can he log PIC on that portion of the flight where he is sole manipulator of the controls, if I am in the other front seat (and am fully current, rated, and insured to fly the aircraft)?

My interpretation was yes.
 
I supposed under the "you can log anything you want" category he can, but he isn't legal to act as PIC.
 
If your not a CFI ,he's not legal,a safety pilot doesn't make it.
 
Well, I see people who have no clue what they are talking about are chiming in again.

The amount of dumb astounds me.

Yes he can log as sole manipulator. ********, you people are ****ing morons. If you don't know the answer - and it's obvious you don't. Shut. The. ****. Up. Post #2 and the original poster not included.

61.51(e)(1)(i)

Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

Bolded, enlargened, and emphasized because some of you are ****ing retards.
 
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Caramon13 said:
Who was sitting left seat? Was he just along for the ride or was he a safety pilot? Who owns the plane? Just because you're insured to fly it may not make it legal for you to be PIC of it (club planes for example).

As sac already said, he's not legal to log PIC so he should have been right seat and basically a passenger.
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This is not a flight that has happened, this is just a "what-if". I don't think the seat, or owner, makes any difference in the eyes of the FAA (and in my example, this would be an aircraft that I can, and do, legally fly PIC).

No simulated IFR or anything either. Just day VFR, two pilots, one of whom has a current BFR and one of whom does not. If we fly for 1 hour, and he is sole manipulator of controls for 30 minutes (while I cross my arms and chat, or whatever), could he legally log those 30 minutes?

I was inspired to ask by a thread about students acting as PIC on an IFR flight plan, when they don't have an IR; the answer there was that they could log it as PIC.
 
EdFred said:
Yes he can log as sole manipulator.
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Thanks for the rather large reference, Ed. That's indeed where I came to my conclusion of "yes" in the original post.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I supposed under the "you can log anything you want" category he can, but he isn't legal to act as PIC.
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The question isn't about acting as PIC. It is about logging PIC. You have been around here long enough to know there is a difference and that what the OP is asking is legal.
 
frfly172 said:
If your not a CFI ,he's not legal,a safety pilot doesn't make it.
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Ron, I don't know where you are coming from. The other pilot does NOT have to be a CFI for the one pilot to log PIC as Sole Manipulator.
 
EdFred said:
Well, I see people who have no clue what they are talking about are chiming in again.

The amount of dumb astounds me.
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Ed, I agree with you 100% but I would respectfully ask that you edit your post to make it more, well, friendly for those that have issues with it. LOL
 
EdFred said:
Well, I see people who have no clue what they are talking about are chiming in again.

The amount of dumb astounds me.
Click to expand...

I'm never astounded by sheer quantity of dumb. There's plenty to go around. But I do get surprised by clearly-wrong information being repeated over and over again.
 
JeffDG said:
Wow...

Here's the title:

When Can I Log PIC Time?
by Mark Kolber, CFI
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I'll check it out from home; just a silly mis-categorisation of sites by our work firewall I imagine!
 
EdFred said:
Well, I see people who have no clue what they are talking about are chiming in again.

The amount of dumb astounds me.

Yes he can log as sole manipulator. ********, you people are ****ing morons. If you don't know the answer - and it's obvious you don't. Shut. The. ****. Up. Post #2 and the original poster not included.

61.51(e)(1)(i)

Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

Bolded, enlargened, and emphasized because some of you are ****ing retards.
Click to expand...

100% correct, and 100% off the handle. If incorrect information on the internet is causing that much stress for you, might I recommend going a walk or taking a yoga class?
 
Lindberg said:
I'm never astounded by sheer quantity of dumb. There's plenty to go around. But I do get surprised by clearly-wrong information being repeated over and over again.
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I don't generally have a huge problem with people imply being dumb. I do have a huge issue with dumb people spouting off their dumb information to other people as if they actually know what they're talking about. It's one thing to be dumb, realize you're dumb, and keep your mouth shut, and another to going around spreading your dumb to other people.
 
JCranford said:
You mean you got EdFred all wound up over a HYPOTHETICAL!?
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Well, if a hypothetical has the right answer it can turn into an actual :) My friend is coming out for a flying trip, but won't have time to get a BFR before we depart. I'll be next to him at all times, so while I am legally PIC, looks like he can log PIC while he's flying.
 
Katamarino said:
Well, if a hypothetical has the right answer it can turn into an actual :) My friend is coming out for a flying trip, but won't have time to get a BFR before we depart. I'll be next to him at all times, so while I am legally PIC, looks like he can log PIC while he's flying.
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Absolutely correct.

However...unless he is wearing a vision restricting device, you cannot log PIC time, despite the fact you'll be acting as PIC.
 
JeffDG said:
Absolutely correct.

However...unless he is wearing a vision restricting device, you cannot log PIC time, despite the fact you'll be acting as PIC.
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Absolutely; one or the other, not both at once.
 
Katamarino said:
Absolutely; one or the other, not both at once.
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If he has foggles on, yep, it can be both at once.

Particularly if you (right seater) are the only legal PIC in the aircraft...no need to parse the "was there an agreement for the right seater to be PIC argument.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
I was gonna point you to Ed Freds flowchart but he already posted it here.

Here is another explanation.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ogram/media/LOGGING PILOT-IN-COMMAND TIME.pdf
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This reference seems to suggest that this is NOT allowed to be logged as PIC time.

However, two pilots may not
simultaneously log PIC when one pilot is
sole manipulator of the controls and the
other is acting as pilot-in-command if the
regulations governing the flight do not
require more than one pilot.
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This could be read two ways. The first is that the PIC must relinquish logging PIC even though he remains PIC while the out-of-date pilot is flying and logging PIC. Or it means that it's not allowed, which seems the more reasonable interpretation.

Of course, this isn't regulatory. It is out of a FSDO, though, so any disagreement with it may take a lawyer to sort out.
 
Katamarino said:
I have a friend who is fully legal to fly (licence, medical etc), except he is out of BFR currency. Can he log PIC on that portion of the flight where he is sole manipulator of the controls, if I am in the other front seat (and am fully current, rated, and insured to fly the aircraft)?

My interpretation was yes.
Click to expand...

Why doesn't he just do the flight review? Problem solved.
 
arnoha said:
...This could be read two ways. The first is that the PIC must relinquish logging PIC even though he remains PIC while the out-of-date pilot is flying and logging PIC. Or it means that it's not allowed, which seems the more reasonable interpretation.

Of course, this isn't regulatory. It is out of a FSDO, though, so any disagreement with it may take a lawyer to sort out.
Click to expand...


ACTING versus LOGGING!!!! :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Ed...you were right in more ways than one!
 
arnoha said:
This could be read two ways. The first is that the PIC must relinquish logging PIC even though he remains PIC
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Yes. Per the regulations, the acting PIC is acting, but unless there is some instructing or safety piloting going on, that person can not log since they are not manipulating.

while the out-of-date pilot is flying and logging PIC.
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Which, as sole manipulator, is an appropriate thing to do.


Or it means that it's not allowed, which seems the more reasonable interpretation.
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It may seem more reasonable that the acting pilot would be the logging pilot, but it would be contrary to the regulations on LOGGING time as PIC.

Of course, this isn't regulatory. It is out of a FSDO, though, so any disagreement with it may take a lawyer to sort out.
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Seems pretty straight forward to me. Manipulating = logging (if rated), not manipulating = not logging (except when instructing or as a required crew member (safety pilot also acting)).
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Yes. Per the regulations, the acting PIC is acting, but unless there is some instructing or safety piloting going on, that person can not log since they are not manipulating.


Which, as sole manipulator, is an appropriate thing to do.



It may seem more reasonable that the acting pilot would be the logging pilot, but it would be contrary to the regulations on LOGGING time as PIC.


Seems pretty straight forward to me. Manipulating = logging (if rated), not manipulating = not logging (except when instructing or as a required crew member (safety pilot also acting)).
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Makes sense. Thank you.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Seems pretty straight forward to me. Manipulating = logging (if rated), not manipulating = not logging (except when instructing or as a required crew member (safety pilot also acting)).
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It all makes perfect sense if you think about the purpose and significance of logging. In single-pilot ops, the "acting" PIC could be reading a book, sleeping, or joining the mile-high club while someone else is the sole manipulator. Meanwhile, the sole manipulator, is solely manipulating the plane. So who's getting the plane-flying experience?
 
Yes, in the wacky world of the FAA and airplane can have any number of PICs, from zero to 900 (the maximum number of seats that can be stuffed into an A380).
 
Greg Bockelman said:
The question isn't about acting as PIC. It is about logging PIC. You have been around here long enough to know there is a difference and that what the OP is asking is legal.
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Yes I get it.
 
arnoha said:
You're an unfriendly one, aren't you? :D
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Keep in mind that, aside from the wording of the regulation, FAA has answered this question and taken the position that logging PIC and acting as PIC are different very specifically and very consistently for about 35 years

Section 61.51 is a flight-time logging regulation, under which PIC time may be logged by one who is not actually the pilot in command (i.e., not "ultimately" responsible for the aircraft) during that time. This is consistent with the purpose of Section 61.51, which as stated in 61.51(a) is to record aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of Section 61.
***
Accordingly, two or more pilots may each log PIC time for the same flight time. For example, a pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he or she is rated may log that time as PIC time under 61.51(c)(2)(i) while receiving instruction, and the instructor may log that same time as PIC time under 61.51(c)(2)(iii).
​
That's from March 1980. Note that the specific paragraph identifiers have changed through the decades, but not their meaning.

Despite that the question gets asked again and again and again, the wrong answer gets repeated again and again and again, and the correct answer gets challenged again and again and again. Not the fault of someone new who asks, since it's not exactly the most intuitive thing in the world, but it can be a bit frustrating.
 
So (not to sidetrack things here), based on what you're saying Mark (and what I'm reading from other posts) if I was in actual IMC on an IFR flight plan as an instrument student I could log PIC as sole manipulator, but the actual PIC would be the CFII in the seat next to me?
 
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