Logging Of An Aircraft's Flights / Journeys

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the_doc

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BritPilot
I could really do with advice and to find out what is considered "normal" in relation to keeping of an aircrafts flight/journey records under the FARs.

I fly a US-registered light twin, in the UK. I have read the FARs and thought I had a reasonable understanding of this area.

I have made sure I carry appropriate documents on board at all times (ARROW), and that the aircraft logs (airframe, 2x engine & 2x prop) are always updated following maintenance, with appropriate wording (for the work / inspections carried out) and the appropriate released back to service record. In day to day operations I keep a file, logging journey information relating to the aircraft (referred to as a tech log - European habit) - so there is a record of all flights, flight times, dates, landings, tach times etc. I also keep my own personal pilot's log book.

I have operated like this for 7 years, and this year changed maintenance outfit. My new A&P has insisted that what I am doing is wrong and that I should be logging every flight, within 48 hours, in the aircraft logbook (the small glovebox size ASA Airframe logbook, I have only ever seen used for maintenance entries). He is most insistent and states I am in breach of the FARs if I don't do as he says.

My understanding is that there is no need to keep a journey log as such, but that the owner operator of a US-reg aircraft should obviously be able to account for that machines flight time of course and that flight time should be noted in the maintenance logs when work or inspections are carried out.


My question: What do all you owner/operators do to log your aircraft's flights and is it necessary to copy these into the aircraft maintenance logs? Is there an aircraft journey log I should be using, or is my A&P correct?


Thanks in advance for any help for this confused Brit Pilot!!
 
the_doc said:
I could really do with advice and to find out what is considered "normal" in relation to keeping of an aircrafts flight/journey records under the FARs.

I fly a US-registered light twin, in the UK. I have read the FARs and thought I had a reasonable understanding of this area.

I have made sure I carry appropriate documents on board at all times (ARROW), and that the aircraft logs (airframe, 2x engine & 2x prop) are always updated following maintenance, with appropriate wording (for the work / inspections carried out) and the appropriate released back to service record. In day to day operations I keep a file, logging journey information relating to the aircraft (referred to as a tech log - European habit) - so there is a record of all flights, flight times, dates, landings, tach times etc. I also keep my own personal pilot's log book.

I have operated like this for 7 years, and this year changed maintenance outfit. My new A&P has insisted that what I am doing is wrong and that I should be logging every flight, within 48 hours, in the aircraft logbook (the small glovebox size ASA Airframe logbook, I have only ever seen used for maintenance entries). He is most insistent and states I am in breach of the FARs if I don't do as he says.

My understanding is that there is no need to keep a journey log as such, but that the owner operator of a US-reg aircraft should obviously be able to account for that machines flight time of course and that flight time should be noted in the maintenance logs when work or inspections are carried out.


My question: What do all you owner/operators do to log your aircraft's flights and is it necessary to copy these into the aircraft maintenance logs? Is there an aircraft journey log I should be using, or is my A&P correct?


Thanks in advance for any help for this confused Brit Pilot!!
Click to expand...

The requirement for a "tech log" for part 91 does not exist in the US FARs.
If your mechanic insists that any rule is being breached, he should be able to give you the rule number.
 
I don't log my journeys in an aircraft or engine log. Just my pilot logbook... for me. That has nothing to do with the airplane. The only thing about the airplane that I log is required VOR checks.

The airframe, prop, engine, and avionics logs are for alterations, repairs, or inspections related to those systems, not for ordinary journeys.

That said, I have seen such logs from other countries...

I had a C172 whose engine had been operated in a different airframe... in Costa Rica. The engine log for that airplane did document every single flight, including times and several engine parameters like oil temp, cht, oil pressure, etc. It was astonishingly detailed.

That airframe (the one operated in Costa Rica) was damaged in a wind storm and the engine found its way to my airframe whose original engine had blown up. That degree of logging was NOT required by the FARs. I've never heard of any requirement to log flights in either the engine or airframe log under the FARs.
 
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I asked for a rule number as I can't find reference to this, oddly he can't provide one...

The european system generally works with a tech log being kept detailing the aircraft's movements, then these being copied into the maintenance book for the airframe, at least in the UK. As you can imagine the airframe log book is considerably larger than an FAA compliant one, and I always seem to age appreciably following completion of the post-flight paperwork :rolleyes2:


Forgot to add, I have a cover sheet in my "tech log" file I keep in the aircraft detailing the 30 day VOR checks and also the dates / hours of next inspection, planned oil changes, altimeter/transponder/static 24mth checks etc. as well.

I was just curious to see how the average FAA (genuine American!) pilot owner / operator runs their show, and to check I'm not missing something here.

Appreciate your comments.
 
My flights are only in my personal log, and I can count the people who have seen that log on one hand.

I keep nothing personal, minus my signature for pilot MX, in my planes logs, even have my tail number blocked from tracking.


As for VOR and nav data cards, I keep that stuff in a pocket sized journal with a list of all my other due dates (oil, annual, pitot static, etc) in the glove box.
 
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Your mechanic is wrong. I will add however that I own a 1946 Luscombe and have all of the logbooks for it from day one and back in the beginning they did log every flight. There were actually specific fields in the logbook for that purpose and the logbook came with the airplane with a Luscombe logo on the front. So, although it may have been standard practice at one time it was never a FAR requirement.
 
Like others, I keep a personal log book for my flights. I update that when I can. Usually I'll just log my time in on myflightbook.com after a flight or the next day. I'll copy all of those flights to my paper logbook during lunch or over a weekend.

Maintenance records go in their appropriate logbook when done. Most times those have tach time, date, time since overhaul and station name in them as well as a description of the work done and a signature.

I keep a small notebook in the plane for vor checks. I'm not THAT diligent about doing those as I fly VFR most of the time, but I do my best to get them done every 30 days as required. The VOR testing location at my airport is almost on the opposite side of the field so, it's kinda a pain to do it as I have to taxi quite a bit and then usually they clear me for the other side runway...pic attached.

That's it though. I'm dubious of people spouting off my "violation" of FARs without showing me some hard evidence. If the mechanic cannot show you where it says in writing that you are in violation, then he should keep his mouth shut and worry about areas in which he IS knowledgeable.

Oh and original logbooks stay locked away, I never keep them in the plane. I fly with my actual logbook since it has my medical in it.
 
Yeah, me too. I've heard of "journey logs" for non-US-registered aircraft, but never seen one. I log my own flight hours in my own logbook, whenever I get around to it. I keep a spreadsheet listing airports I've visited, but only because I'm a geek and want to know how many different places I've gone. Even there, each airport is only listed once . . .

Keep a list in the plane of everywhere it's ever been, updated within 48 hours of landing? Required by FARs? Bull hockey! Never heard of such a thing, never heard of anyone doing it. I do know people, though, who update their personal logbook every few months based on their portable GPS records.

The logbook is to track hours, landings and instrument approaches for ratings, currency, etc. I also know people who only log enough to prove 3 landings in 90 days to be current for carrying passengers, and don't care about tracking their hours.
 
the_doc said:
I asked for a rule number as I can't find reference to this, oddly he can't provide one...
Click to expand...

Because it doesn't exist (for Part 91).
But of course there isn't a rule that says you can't keep such a log. :D
 
the_doc said:
I asked for a rule number as I can't find reference to this, oddly he can't provide one...
Click to expand...

In that case I'd kindly tell him to shut up:wink2:

I do keep a journey log of my airplane, but it's for my own personal enjoyment, not because it's required by the FARs(it's not).
 
Thanks for the reassurance I am not misunderstanding things here.

Unfortunately, over here in the UK, I need to be careful not to "upset" the A&P too much as he is the only one working with my european maintenance shop, and it would be a right royal pain in the butt to have to move maintenance provider elsewhere.

As far as I am concerned then, I will add a single line entry in the airframe maintenance log, just prior to any inspections he (or an IA) has to carry out, detailing to that date, number of flights, current tach time, total airframe hours, total number of landings since last inspection, and that is all he is getting - and not that this has to placed in there at all but to try to form a compromise ... :mad2:

(Can you imagine what a buyer would say when they see an airframe maintenance logbook being used like a journey log?!)


On another note of interest, there are some European Countries (e.g France) who require any aircraft arriving to carry a movements or journey log, so over here a number of us carry the "tech log" folder I have to ward off their local officials if ever ramp checked. I too, like some of you here, am a bit "geeky" and like the idea of keeping a record of all movements of the aircraft anyway. It gets used by a friend very occasionally and so my personal pilot's logbook alone might not contain all of the aircraft's flights I guess otherwise.


I want to say a big thank you to everyone out there who has replied and reassured me :thumbsup:
 
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the_doc said:
Thanks for the reassurance I am not misunderstanding things here.

Unfortunately, over here in the UK, I need to be careful not to "upset" the A&P too much as he is the only one working with my european maintenance shop, and it would be a right royal pain in the butt to have to move maintenance provider elsewhere.

As far as I am concerned then, I will add a single line entry in the airframe maintenance log, just prior to any inspections he has to carry out, detailing to that date, number of flights, current tach time, total airframe ours, total number of landings since last inspection, and that is all he is getting - and not that this has to placed in there at all but to try to form a compromise ... :mad2:

(Can you imagine what a buyer would say when they say an airframe maintenance logbook being used like a journey log?!)


On another note of interest, there are some European Countries (e.g France) who require any aircraft arriving to carry a movements or journey log, so over here a number of us carry the "tech log" folder I have to ward off their local officials if ever ramp checked. I too, like some of you here, am a bit "geeky" and like the idea of keeping a record of all movements of the aircraft anyway. It gets used by a friend very occasionally and so my personal pilot's logbook alone might not contain all of the aircraft's flights I guess otherwise.


I want to say a big thank you to everyone out there who has replied and reassured me :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

One thing to consider is automation, which is how I do it nowadays.
Yes, it's not legally required, but still a good idea if you own an aircraft to keep a detailed trip log for it.
So what I do now is to use a combination of the engine monitor log (EDM-700 in my case), plus a GPS tracking app on my Nexus 7. I have it set up such that both devices transmit their data to Dropbox after every trip, and my home-based server then grabs it, processes it, and posts the data to a private website that shows all the plane's trips, including departure/arrival times, engine temperature plots plus other info (e.g. hottest CHT, hottest EGT, highest shock cooling rate), Google Earth KML of the flight (position, speed and altitude profile), etc. I use this automated log to enter flights into my personal pilot log, but I can imagine if someone had a legitimate need for seeing the trip log, I could make it partially or fully available to them.
 
Where you fly has nothing to do with the hours you put on the airplane,with the Hobbs and tach,you have more than enough information. I use myflightbook on every flight and then transcribe the info to my paper log. Also include notes. Makes for good reading when you can't fly.
 
And this is the type of GA system our government will put us into if we allow them.
 
I must say, for a lot of things, the FAA do have a very much "can do" attitude and appear to apply common sense.

Sadly on this side of the Atlantic, we do seem to have some silly rules. Recently our CAA have started taking a look at GA, pretty much the Part 91 type, operations and are trying to deregulate and balance rules in a proportionate manner.
 
I keep a maintenance sheet where I log each flight, recording tach and Hobbs time. For me, this is a holdover from when I was an aircraft manager in a flying club. In the remarks column I add where I flew to, as a memory jogger to update my pilot logbook with the details (I update my pilot logbook every few weeks or months).

In my airplane's first airframe log, the owner of the time logged detailed accounts of his flights and who he flew with. Kinda funny looking at it now. It it's on a 1975 airplane so this wasn't at long ago.
 
Basically it's your logbook and you could put whatever you want in it. There are rules about specific maintenance actions that must be recorded but not set rules as to the format and no rules as to what NOT to include.

I think that back in the late 40's and early 50's people just had no concept of how cluttered a logbook would become if every flight over a period of 60 years were entered. They were certain we'd be in flying cars by the 21st century and their shiny new airplane would have long since met the scrap pile.
 
I keep a Journey Log for the plane even though I can grab the information manually from devices and engine monitor.

In addition to Hobbs/Tach time I also add the following n longer flights: engine parameters, fuel flow, power setting, ect. as a type of snapshot (usually one hour into the flight) and this allows me to see instantaneously if something is not right, compared to previous flights, rather than waiting to find out on the ground at a later time. I also log VOR checks, oil changes and any squaks as they happen on the same page.

Obviously this isn't required by the regs. However, when I sell the plane I do pass on the notebook (if wanted) to the next owner who can see how the plane was flown. I'm sure it doesn't add value to the plane but allows prospective buyers know that I took care of the engine and possibly making it easier to sell the plane :dunno:

I keep a copy of these journey logs for myself and I find it very interesting to go back and see how I have changed my flying in terms of engine wear as I have learned more over the course of 20+ years of aircraft ownership.
 
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