logging approaches as safety pilot?

rbridges

rbridges

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rbridges
I sat through 3 approaches last night as safety pilot in a cherokee 180. I know that I can log the time he's under the hood as PIC, but do I get credit for the approaches as far as currency is concerned?

I did a quick search, so don't beat me over the head if it's been asked recently. :dunno:
 
No, you cannot log those approaches as safety pilot. You cannot log the time for anything other than SIC unless you agreed, and where able to act as PIC.
 
No. You didn't maneuver the plane solely by reference to instruments which is the purpose of the currency requirement.
 
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Read the reg:
(1) Use of an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship for maintaining instrument experience. Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations in an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship, as appropriate, for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained in actual weather conditions, or under simulated conditions using a view-limiting device that involves having performed the following--
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The Chief Counsel has made clear that except for an instrument instructor giving training in actual instrument conditions, "performed" means sole manipulator of the controls. Merely being the safety pilot while another pilot manipulates the controls is not sufficient.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...9/carpenter - (1999) legal interpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ald b. levy - (2008) legal interpretation.pdf
 
Since those approaches would not have counted for currency if you flew them in visual conditions without a view limiting device, I really have to ask: what led you to think that watching someone else fly an approach while you can see out the window in visual conditions might count? :confused:

That question is really out of curiosity and confusion and not an implicit flame.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Since those approaches would not have counted for currency if you flew them in visual conditions without a view limiting device, I really have to ask: what led you to think that watching someone else fly an approach while you can see out the window in visual conditions might count? :confused:

That question is really out of curiosity and confusion and not an implicit flame.
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No offense taken at all. I thought I'd heard or read that somewhere. Nothing I was certain about, so I thought I'd ask. I figured there were a lot of people here that would know for sure.

Thanks again for everyone's help.
 
When I fly (part of a required crew of 2) I log all the IMC whether I'm PF or not and only the approaches where I'm PF and I'm IMC past the FAF.
 
How did sitting in the right seat make you a better, more proficient pilot? If watching makes you better, watch some sports on TV and sign up for a team.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
How did sitting in the right seat make you a better, more proficient pilot? If watching makes you better, watch some sports on TV and sign up for a team.

Bob Gardner
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:rolleyes2:

it actually did help to watch and listen to his radio calls. I've got a new instrument ticket, so every little bit helps.
 
rbridges said:
:rolleyes2:

it actually did help to watch and listen to his radio calls. I've got a new instrument ticket, so every little bit helps.
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I appreciate that and understand its value. Can't extend that to logging approaches, however.

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
How did sitting in the right seat make you a better, more proficient pilot? If watching makes you better, watch some sports on TV and sign up for a team.

Bob Gardner
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I don't know about that one, Bob. Watching someone else fly, whether they do it right or wrong, does tend to make one a better pilot. It's one of the side-benefits for CFIs of teaching, and having a student in the back seat is a good teaching technique for the back-seat student.
 
Brad Z said:
No, you cannot log those approaches as safety pilot. You cannot log the time for anything other than SIC unless you agreed, and where able to act as PIC.
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Do not both pilots log PIC while the PF is under the hood?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Do not both pilots log PIC while the PF is under the hood?
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Only if the PNF is qualified to act as legal PIC from the right seat under whatever rules the renter and insurer have and if both parties have agreed beforehand that the PNF is the legal PIC and will take the fall for any FAA violations. Be a good idea to put that in the logbook BEFORE the flight.
 
alfadog said:
Only if the PNF is qualified to act as legal PIC from the right seat under whatever rules the renter and insurer have
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The renter and insurer rules are irrelevant to this question. Only the FAA rules matter as far as logging. The renter and insurer rules may have other impacts, but not on the legality of logging.
 
Ron Levy said:
The renter and insurer rules are irrelevant to this question. Only the FAA rules matter as far as logging. The renter and insurer rules may have other impacts, but not on the legality of logging.
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True. Not my intent to imply otherwise.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't know about that one, Bob. Watching someone else fly, whether they do it right or wrong, does tend to make one a better pilot. It's one of the side-benefits for CFIs of teaching, and having a student in the back seat is a good teaching technique for the back-seat student.
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Would your answer be the same if I had inserted "instrument" between "proficient" and "pilot"?

Bob
 
rbridges said:
this forum is very helpful. it clears up a bunch of wrong info I may pick up around the FBO.
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Two of the best places to pick up erroneous information are "around the FBO" and from your instructor. Don't believe anything that cannot be confirmed by consulting official documentation.

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
Two of the best places to pick up erroneous information are "around the FBO" and from your instructor. Don't believe anything that cannot be confirmed by consulting official documentation.

Bob
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Some guy on the internet???
 
Jaybird180 said:
Do not both pilots log PIC while the PF is under the hood?
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8994.gif
 
Yeah, but if you note the date on the flow chart, which is a revised date, there's no reason anyone on this board that's been here any length of time should have confusion about logging PIC time.

I think it's even been put in a publication.

Hence the frustration.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Do not both pilots log PIC while the PF is under the hood?
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Ron Levy said:
The renter and insurer rules are irrelevant to this question. Only the FAA rules matter as far as logging. The renter and insurer rules may have other impacts, but not on the legality of logging.
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Actually, not irrelevant at all. The PNF can log PIC under certain circumstances (as per EdFred) if both pilots agree that the PNF will be the legal PIC for the flight. Renter and/or insurance rules will factor into whether they agree on that or not. My point is that you do not "automatically" get PIC time by virtue of sitting in the right seat of an airplane that you are otherwise qualified to fly as PIC. They can also choose to disregard the renter and/or insurance requirements of who may act as PIC and do whatever the heck they want. That is always an option, also.
 
alfadog said:
Actually, not irrelevant at all. The PNF can log PIC under certain circumstances (as per EdFred) if both pilots agree that the PNF will be the legal PIC for the flight. Renter and/or insurance rules will factor into whether they agree on that or not. My point is that you do not "automatically" get PIC time by virtue of sitting in the right seat of an airplane that you are otherwise qualified to fly as PIC. They can also choose to disregard the renter and/or insurance requirements of who may act as PIC and do whatever the heck they want. That is always an option, also.
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Technically, the rental place has no say in what someone can log. It isn't the rental place's logbook. Yes, if something happens on that flight, and the FAA and rental asks to see the safety pilot's logbook, they could go after the guy "acting" as PIC. But they (the rental place) still can't say "no you can't log this."

And most people don't go through the whole "will you agree to PIC?" discussion. Sure there's a few people with an entire forest up their anus, that will need to have that discussion, because anal doesn't even come close to describing them. But, for the most part it's..

"Hey, wanna safety pilot?"
"Sure."

after the flight...

"Was I PIC or you?"
"I dunno. I flew, you sat there, sure, you need PIC time right, log it."
"Sweet. Only 173 more hours to commercial."
 
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EdFred said:
Technically, the rental place has no say in what someone can log. It isn't the rental place's logbook. Yes, if something happens on that flight, and the FAA and rental asks to see the safety pilot's logbook, they could go after the guy "acting" as PIC. But they (the rental place) still can't say "no you can't log this."

And most people don't go through the whole "will you agree to PIC?" discussion. Sure there's a few people with an entire forest up their anus, that will need to have that discussion, because anal doesn't even come close to describing them. But, for the most part it's..

"Hey, wanna safety pilot?"
"Sure."

after the flight...

"Was I PIC or you?"
"I dunno. I flew, you sat there, sure, you need PIC time right, log it."
"Sweet. Only 173 more hours to commercial."
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If my club says (which it does) that, other than a club CFI, the legal PIC must be the PF and sit in the left seat, I would think it a slap in the face of the club to disregard that. It is not worth it to me. Someone else might feel differently.
 
alfadog said:
If my club says (which it does) that, other than a club CFI, the legal PIC must be the PF and sit in the left seat, I would think it a slap in the face of the club to disregard that. It is not worth it to me. Someone else might feel differently.
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I would bet if you check logbooks of safety pilots who have ridden along with other club members you will find PIC time for those flights.
 
alfadog said:
If my club says (which it does) that, other than a club CFI, the legal PIC must be the PF and sit in the left seat, I would think it a slap in the face of the club to disregard that. It is not worth it to me. Someone else might feel differently.
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Might be a slap in the face of the club, but the FAA really couldn't care less as long as the FAA's rules are obeyed, and logging is strictly an FAA issue.
 
If my club says (which it does) that, other than a club CFI, the legal PIC must be the PF and sit in the left seat, I would think it a slap in the face of the club to disregard that.
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That's between you and the club, but it probably also has to do with whatever insurance policy the club has.
 
Ron Levy said:
Might be a slap in the face of the club, but the FAA really couldn't care less as long as the FAA's rules are obeyed, and logging is strictly an FAA issue.
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Horse. Dead. LOL.
 
Just so happens Ron has a good article on safety pilots in this month's IFR Refresher. Lots of valuable info in it.
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, but if you note the date on the flow chart, which is a revised date, there's no reason anyone on this board that's been here any length of time should have confusion about logging PIC time.

I think it's even been put in a publication.

Hence the frustration.
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I mean wrong as in OMG EWWWW WTF EWWW.
 
EdFred you da man - that's the best illustration of the frustration felt by us "old timers" on these boards, and on the general knowledge level of GA in general...

However, the OP is a newbie, and like most new pilots, have not been trained in reading regs, and neither was I when I was a newbie, I did what my instructor told me, and he never told me (forced me) to read and understand, on my own, the regulations, and other stuff. That's what this guy is just now beginning to learn.

But I love your frustration illustration, or whatever you call it. How do you do dat? PM me if you want on how to pull up these pics. Really, I got nuthin' else to do.
 
Nosehair, Ed was upset at me not the OP. I was attempting to steer the collective down the beaten path to the right answer, as I know this is an ad infinitude topic and I'm certain the search engines will pick it up. Best we keep it clear.

Ed thank for adding it to your signature. I needed it once and could not find it, but now it should be a permanent memorial.
 
Jay - it's been in my signature for 6 years. Before it said Can I log it as PIC? But I think my map that used to be in my sig distracted from it.

NH - For that one I just searched for bang head keyboard gif as I had seen it before. And as Jay mentioned, yes it was directed at him. Sorry, Jay. :rofl:
 
EdFred said:
Jay - it's been in my signature for 6 years. Before it said Can I log it as PIC? But I think my map that used to be in my sig distracted from it.

NH - For that one I just searched for bang head keyboard gif as I had seen it before. And as Jay mentioned, yes it was directed at him. Sorry, Jay. :rofl:
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I'd say your constantly changing avatars are distracting, especially the current one.:D
 
bobmrg said:
Would your answer be the same if I had inserted "instrument" between "proficient" and "pilot"?

Bob
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Yes.

For a very simple example, there is nothing I've seen that corrects a tendency in an instrument pilot to overcorrect better than watching someone else overcorrect.
 
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