Logged time in un-airworthy plane and taking checkride soon

[Unregistered]

Hoping to get help with an issue I just discovered.

I co-own a plane and this year we were a month late on getting our annual done. No excuses, we just missed it. During that month, I made a couple of flights.

During the annual, the ELT was sent out for repair and was installed about a month later. Between the annual and ELT reinstall, I made another flight. I wasn't aware that the ELT had been removed (poor communication with co-owner but still my fault).

I have a commercial checkride scheduled in a couple of weeks. While none of these flights in question are necessary for me to meet the requirements, they do exist in my logbook.

Any suggestions on how to handle this? Do nothing and explain if asked? Proactively bring it up?

Thanks

 

[ja_user]

Explain what? How would anyone looking at your logbook know that any airplane you ever flew was airworthy when you got in it?

 

[ChrisK]

I wouldn't publish it.

 

[Unregistered]

Explain what? How would anyone looking at your logbook know that any airplane you ever flew was airworthy when you got in it?

Sure I'm probably thinking about 4 steps too far ahead but I'm envisioning the oral to be "show me how this plane is legal to fly today" and I point out: 1) the recent annual (agree, unlikely that the 13 vs 12 months from the prior year will be noticed let alone correlated with my log book) and 2) when the ELT test was done which is a separate and one month later entry from the annual entry (when it usually is combined).

 

[MAKG1]

ELTs are not an airworthiness issue, and are not required for all flights.

One of the exceptions is even for removal for repair.

See 14 CFR 91.207(f)

 

[Unregistered]

ELTs are not an airworthiness issue, and are not required for all flights.

One of the exceptions is even for removal for repair.

See 14 CFR 91.207(f)

Right you are! Seems like the kind of thing a commercial candidate ought to know for himself wouldn't you think?

 

[James331]

Well, are you taking your checkride in that plane?

Is the examiner a DPE or a Fed?

If you're worried about it just take your ride in another plane.

The longest part of my initial CPL ride was going through my logs, it's not out of the realm of possibility for the examiner to notice the flight that's past annual in the plane logs (which he'll also go through).

I could see this costing you a ride, with a fed worse.

It's a gamble, your call to roll the dice or not, I'd play it on the safe side and take the ride in another plane.

**A good idea, put your annuals, Pitot Static, BFR, etc Date into the calendar in your phone and or computer. Mine is set to go off 2 weeks out, 1 week out, 1 day before, and on the day of.

 

[RJM62]

If it was a training flight conducted within a 50 NM radius of the originating airport, the ELT was not required.

You can also operate an aircraft without an ELT if it's been removed for repair [FAR 91.207(f)(10)], but the removal would have had to be logged and the cockpit placarded during the time the ELT was removed [FAR 91.207(f)(10)(i)]. So if you're going to use that exemption, I'd leave out the "poor communication" explanation. It implies that either the removal for repair was not properly logged and placarded, or that you didn't bother checking, either of which would raise eyebrows, especially because you are a co-owner and therefore presumably the responsible "operator" of the aircraft for maintenance purposes. It would hint of a bit of sloppiness on your part as both the pilot and as the operator, in my opinion. It also wouldn't reflect brilliantly on the A&P/IA.

So in other words, if you're going to use the removal for maintenance exemption, just use it, citing FAR 91.207(f)(10), and leaving out the "poor communication" part. If it was a local training flight within 50 miles of the originating airport, you can also cite FAR 91.207(f)(3).

Rich

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I personally don't think it will be an issue. If it were me, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[evapilotaz]

Never mind

 

[frfly172]

Are you actually going to tell the DPE,what you just told this board? If you have more than enough hours,what's the problem. However when you get the comm rating,you should pay a little more attention,to the little things.

 

[James331]

Are you actually going to tell the DPE,what you just told this board? If you have more than enough hours,what's the problem. However when you get the comm rating,you should pay a little more attention,to the little things.

I think the issue would be the rating.

He's trying to become a commercial pilot, a professional pilots rating, there is a higher standard here.

Flying past a annual as PIC, in a plane he has access to the logs none the less, clearly demonstrates he is not ready to act as PIC as a pilot for hire to the public.

I'm not sure who your DPE is, or if you're using a Fed, but if you highlight this, or they find it, I don't think it's going to be a "ah shucks, careful next time" type of thing.

 

[Bob A]

We all know that you fly the plane, not the paperwork.

That said, the people who give you the papers to OK your flying tend to take their paperwork seriously. Interacting with them, it behooves you to do likewise.

Beyond all that, I find that an aircraft owner would forget an annual inspection a little troubling, especially if you aspire to a career as a commercial pilot. Failed ramp check, long conversation with a Fed, maybe not a risk you'd want to subject yourself to. Obviously posting anonymously indicates you have an idea that you overstepped the bounds, which is sensible.

Take your checkride in another aircraft. Do check the paperwork for that aircraft before the day of the ride. Do not offer any tales of reg-busting to the examiner.

Go forth and sin no more.

 

[Tim]

Put all your FAA certificates in an envelope and send them to the FAA in Ok city.

Just kidding I couldn't resist!

 

[timwinters]

Flying past a annual as PIC, in a plane he has access to the logs none the less, clearly demonstrates he is not ready to act as PIC as a pilot for hire to the public.

 

[Ted]

I personally don't think it will be an issue. If it were me, I wouldn't worry about it.

Yep. Nobody would care.

 

[James331]

Guess we just have diffrent standards and expectations for professional pilots.

 

[Henning]

The flights out of annual... You shouldn't have logged those... They could pose a problem. Don't bring them up, but if they get brought up, Mia Culpa is the best way to play it.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

An option would be to cut out the page with the invalid logged flights from your log book, and re-enter any valid flights. You might need to go back and get your CFI to re-sign some valid flights that were on the same page if there was required dual-logged that got cut out. Discuss with your CFI before doing this. There is no requirement to log every flight.

Hope you learned a valid lesson from this. BTW, you can legitimately have a "13-month" annual if it is signed off on the 1st day of the month, it would be due again until the 30th day of that month the following year.

 

[Richard]

An option would be to cut out the page with the invalid logged flights from your log book, and re-enter any valid flights. You might need to go back and get your CFI to re-sign some valid flights that were on the same page if there was required dual-logged that got cut out. Discuss with your CFI before doing this. There is no requirement to log every flight.

Hope you learned a valid lesson from this. BTW, you can legitimately have a "13-month" annual if it is signed off on the 1st day of the month, it would be due again until the 30th day of that month the following year.

I would line out the flight(s) before altering a bound log as suggested.

Now, speaking to all pilots, raise your hand if you've never flown an unairworthy aircraft not on a waiver. For you who raised their hands, How are you sure?

 

[James331]

Never flown one out of annual. I know because I have the date the annual was preformed.

It ain't that tuff to track kind of stuff.


To the OP, let us know how your ride goes and if the DPE catches those flights

 

[James331]

An option would be to cut out the page with the invalid logged flights from your log book, and re-enter any valid flights. You might need to go back and get your CFI to re-sign some valid flights that were on the same page if there was required dual-logged that got cut out. Discuss with your CFI before doing this. There is no requirement to log every flight.

Hope you learned a valid lesson from this. BTW, you can legitimately have a "13-month" annual if it is signed off on the 1st day of the month, it would be due again until the 30th day of that month the following year.

Having a page missing would be SUPER suspect, and I dont know many CFIs who would help cover an illegal flight like that up, especially in such a obvious way.

It's been said before, best way around it is to just take the ride in a different plane, and let those illegal flights be buried by time.

 

[Dead Stick]

Hoping to get help with an issue I just discovered.

I co-own a plane and this year we were a month late on getting our annual done. No excuses, we just missed it. During that month, I made a couple of flights.

During the annual, the ELT was sent out for repair and was installed about a month later. Between the annual and ELT reinstall, I made another flight. I wasn't aware that the ELT had been removed (poor communication with co-owner but still my fault).

I have a commercial checkride scheduled in a couple of weeks. While none of these flights in question are necessary for me to meet the requirements, they do exist in my logbook.

Any suggestions on how to handle this? Do nothing and explain if asked? Proactively bring it up?

It sounds to me like you are not ready to hold a commercial certificate. Real professionals don't make those kind of rookie mistakes.

 

[Palmpilot]

It sounds to me like you are not ready to hold a commercial certificate. Real professionals don't make those kind of rookie mistakes.

The way you get to be a real professional (in any profession) is by learning from your mistakes.

 

[\__[Ô]__/]

For whatever it is worth, I don't think the DPEs for any of my commercial checkrides would have caught something like this.

They wanted to see that the plane was airworthy and that I met the experience requirements. There wasn't a cross checking of flights in my logbook with the airplane records or a perusal of the airplane's past in search of gaps in the annual.

 

[woodchucker]

For whatever it is worth, I don't think the DPEs for any of my commercial checkrides would have caught something like this.

They wanted to see that the plane was airworthy and that I met the experience requirements. There wasn't a cross checking of flights in my logbook with the airplane records or a perusal of the airplane's past in search of gaps in the annual.

More or less this. It's not an investigation into your past. It's about the plane being airworthy on this particular day. If you have any lingering doubts, if you think you might say something stupid when the dpe brings up ELT requirements, you best get yourself a rental for the checkride.

 

[Dead Stick]

The way you get to be a real professional (in any profession) is by learning from your mistakes.

Truth!

That being said, being a professional isn't just about the certificate or even how well you fly the airplane - just about anyone can pass a commercial checkride with a bit of training. It's all about the approach and mindset that you have when it comes to flying. Apparently, the OP is quite lackadaisical when it comes to his approach to flying. It's going to bite him on the backside at some point if he doesn't make a change in his personal SOPs. Legalities aside, a responsible pilot knows the maintenance/inspection status of his airplane. I hope he learns from this, but honestly, it's a lesson that he should have learned back when he was working on his private. I'm sorry if I come off like a jerk, but it is what it is.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Having a page missing would be SUPER suspect, and I dont know many CFIs who would help cover an illegal flight like that up, especially in such a obvious way.

It's been said before, best way around it is to just take the ride in a different plane, and let those illegal flights be buried by time.

My log book doesn't have page numbers. It's pretty close to falling apart anyway. It wouldn't be at all obvious if something fell out (not that I've had this problem).

Your log book is YOUR log book. It could be stapled together notes on napkins and random envelopes and be perfectly legal. By removing the entries, you wouldn't be "covering it up", you would be choosing not to log a flight that could not be legally logged. There is no requirement to log every flight you make. There is no law that says you have to preserve this self-incriminating evidence (unless you've already been served papers). The only two legal options are to line out the entries and not count them, or remove them entirely from the log. Leaving them in with the time "counting" and waiting for the entries to be supposedly "inconsequential" is not legal. Your signature on your log book pages is that the entries are legal and accurate, but not that the represent all time flown.

 

[James331]

Meh, I just wouldn't dig the hole any deeper, he did it and that's that.

I would make sure to take the ride in another plane, if the OP feels he should be a CPL.

As for removing a entry, to what's even dumber, putting a line through it, just leave it.

If somehow stuff comes up, they back check a fuel receipt or flight following / IFR tract / etc and you get a call, or the examiner notices it had a recent annual and a flight between annuals is missing, or that date range page is missing, that takes a bad oops mistake situation and turns it into something VERY diffrent.


Just leave it alone, take the ride in another plane, let that flight get buried under other flights and time, most likely it'll never come up that way.

 

[ChrisK]

Meh, I just wouldn't dig the hole any deeper, he did it and that's that. or that date range page is missing, that takes a bad oops mistake situation and turns it into something VERY diffrent.

Am i the only one who doesn't always log flights in order?

 

[Fearless Tower]

You did screw up. It happens. Hopefully you learned a lesson.

I tend to agree with those that say most DPEs probably won't even catch it. I do know a few logbook nazis that might, but they are few and far between.

If you are really that concerned about it, then go rent a plane for your Checkride like James suggested.

Whatever you do, don't try to eliminate the entries. Cutting out a page, lining out or whiting out only will raise questions/draw attention. If the Examiner notices the flight in question, just be honest and admit you made a mistake and go from there.

 

[Palmpilot]

Your signature on your log book pages is that the entries are legal and accurate...

The signature block in my log book says "I certify that all information contained in this flight record is true." There's no mention of whether the flights were legal or not.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

The signature block in my log book says "I certify that all information contained in this flight record is true." There's no mention of whether the flights were legal or not.

There is no requirement to log "illegal flights".

Or any flight, for that matter, unless it is required to be logged by a specific rule.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Am i the only one who doesn't always log flights in order?

No, you're not.

Because my official logbook is kept in a safe, separate from the airplane flight log we keep in the plane (largely for accounting purposes, but I log flight details there usually), months can go by between when I reconcile the two. I will often have a photo on my phone of the flight log page, but it can sometimes be some time before my official log gets updated. However, if I find I need to have the official log updated for passenger or IFR currency, a few times I have gone into the log and entered just required flights if I'm pinched for time, before I can go back and fill in the rest.

Now, an important step we made 10 years ago at the beginning of our co-ownership to prevent the OPs mistake is at the top of each of our flight log pages we list the dates/hours for the annual and any required recurring inspections, in addition to the time to next oil change.

Jeff

 

[JHW]

Truth!

That being said, being a professional isn't just about the certificate or even how well you fly the airplane - just about anyone can pass a commercial checkride with a bit of training. It's all about the approach and mindset that you have when it comes to flying. Apparently, the OP is quite lackadaisical when it comes to his approach to flying. It's going to bite him on the backside at some point if he doesn't make a change in his personal SOPs. Legalities aside, a responsible pilot knows the maintenance/inspection status of his airplane. I hope he learns from this, but honestly, it's a lesson that he should have learned back when he was working on his private. I'm sorry if I come off like a jerk, but it is what it is.

I have flown airplanes that were missing various inspections, AD's, what have you, and missed it.

I have made mistakes on my tax returns and had to correct them and pay the penalties.

I have forgotten payments on utilities at some of our properties and gotten nasty calls from the utility company.

I have mixed up the spices that were supposed to go on our kabobs vs the kids' hamburgers and had some kids running for the water pitcher screaming.

I am not perfect. I make mistakes. None of these things are gaps in training or fundamental flaws, except for the flaw of being human. The OP also seems to suffer from this affliction.

I'd be willing to bet that mr/ms dead stick has some human tendencies as well, when s/he is not hiding behind a keyboard. Some people manage to be perfect in their own minds, but eventually there will be a gear-up or a bad icing encounter or something. Everyone screws up from time to time.

 

[Dead Stick]

I have flown airplanes that were missing various inspections, AD's, what have you, and missed it.

I have made mistakes on my tax returns and had to correct them and pay the penalties.

I have forgotten payments on utilities at some of our properties and gotten nasty calls from the utility company.

I have mixed up the spices that were supposed to go on our kabobs vs the kids' hamburgers and had some kids running for the water pitcher screaming.

I am not perfect. I make mistakes. None of these things are gaps in training or fundamental flaws, except for the flaw of being human. The OP also seems to suffer from this affliction.

I'd be willing to bet that mr/ms dead stick has some human tendencies as well, when s/he is not hiding behind a keyboard. Some people manage to be perfect in their own minds, but eventually there will be a gear-up or a bad icing encounter or something. Everyone screws up from time to time.

You're right, I did make a mistake once, I thought I had made a mistake and I hadn't.

 

[James331]

I have flown airplanes that were missing various inspections, AD's, what have you, and missed it

And that's why you're a hobby pilot.

You compare flying past annual to using the wrong spice on your kids hamburger.

For a professional pilot it's a little more serious.

 

[w_privett]

And that's why you're a hobby pilot.

You compare flying past annual to using the wrong spice on your kids hamburger.

For a professional pilot it's a little more serious.

Ahh yes, very serious. Failure is not an option. We are supermen, us professional pilots.

Except for when we aren't.

By that way that hobby pilot, back when he worked for me, flew this route in a pilot's seat 7 times a month and spent the time in between exercising his other hobby license as a maintenance engineer.

 

[MAKG1]

The way you get to be a real professional (in any profession) is by learning from your mistakes.

That's a bit overstated.

I won't become a "real professional" pilot by flying into ice and stalling the elevator on final.

I prefer to learn from others' mistakes.

 

[Palmpilot]

There is no requirement to log "illegal flights".

True, but I thought we were talking about illegal flights that have already been logged. It sounded like you were saying that your signature in the logbook attests that all the flights in it were legal.