Log my time as safety pilot ?!

[Fearless Tower]

Nope, because he is really the pilot in command, with the responsibilities that entails.

But if you understand the FAA's viewpoint on the requirements for a safety pilot to log PIC, then you would realize that the safety pilot must be the legal PIC and accept all the responsibilities for the flight that go with that AND both pilots must agree to that areangement. If the safety pilot PIC is not accepting the responsibilities of PIC, the yes, they have no business logging it.

You're right about one thing: You can log whatever you want and the OP can too. But you can't have it both ways as some in this thread seem to want. You can't say you don't care about how others log their time and call their time 'illegitimate'.

 

[Alexb2000]

Let's be real, the math says that MANY beginning commercial pilots have fabricated log books. They have the ratings, they fly some, but when 10 hours of flying a pen saves $3300 and you need, say 500 hours of multi or about $165,000 worth, you better believe a lot is made up. Ironically, I doubt the safety pilot stuff is, I mean why lie about that.

 

[Captain]

But if you understand the FAA's viewpoint on the requirements for a safety pilot to log PIC, then you would realize that the safety pilot must be the legal PIC and accept all the responsibilities for the flight that go with that AND both pilots must agree to that areangement. If the safety pilot PIC is not accepting the responsibilities of PIC, the yes, they have no business logging it.

You're right about one thing: You can log whatever you want and the OP can too. But you can't have it both ways as some in this thread seem to want. You can't say you don't care about how others log their time and call their time 'illegitimate'.

Why not? It's logical that I don't care what you put in your book AND if I'm asked for an opinion I state it. A pilot can log their drive to work and even try to present it for a rating and I don't care. But if you ask me ill tell you I don't think driving to work should count towards PIC.

 

[0luke1]

I had to wrestle the controls away from a guy who outranked me when he got vertigo shooting an a approach under the hood. We were low and over a ridge line. After he calmed down, it was very quiet in the aircraft, he looked at me and said "what now?" I said get back under the hood and finish the approach.

Since I signed for the aircraft, I did count all the time as PIC.

 

[poadeleted20]

Since I signed for the aircraft, I did count all the time as PIC.

Under 14 CFR 61.51, the fact that you "signed for the aircraft" does not by itself allow you to log "all the time as PIC" if by "all the time" you mean the entire flight time as defined in the regulations. You'd need to qualify to log the entire flight as PIC time under some other clause of 14 CFR 61.51(e) if the only reason you could log PIC time was that you were PIC while the pilot flying was hooded.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I had to wrestle the controls away from a guy who outranked me when he got vertigo shooting an a approach under the hood. We were low and over a ridge line. After he calmed down, it was very quiet in the aircraft, he looked at me and said "what now?" I said get back under the hood and finish the approach.

Since I signed for the aircraft, I did count all the time as PIC.

Interesting. I have a lot of Navy Helo pilot coworkers and friends and every single one of them has gotten vertigo at some point. None of them had trouble acknowledging the fact and fighting the other pilot for the controls. I'm not saying I don't believe you, just surprised that he fought you.

 

[ChitDisturber]

Let's be real, the math says that MANY beginning commercial pilots have fabricated log books. They have the ratings, they fly some, but when 10 hours of flying a pen saves $3300 and you need, say 500 hours of multi or about $165,000 worth, you better believe a lot is made up. Ironically, I doubt the safety pilot stuff is, I mean why lie about that.

Uhh, maybe in India lol!

I've never BSed time, never seen or know of anyone who has ether.

Really DUMB idea, especially if you're BSing large amounts of time.

When someone notices that your skills and logbook don't make sense to each other (due to a incident or accident or just sucking at multi, tailwheel, etc) it's really easy to find out if you rented the plane or not, between the mx books, rental time sheet, receipts compared to your logbook.

Once that comes to light, your permanently F'd.

As all those dumb a$$ Indians that got busted a year or so ago.

 

[Alexb2000]

Uhh, maybe in India lol!

I've never BSed time, never seen or know of anyone who has ether.

Really DUMB idea, especially if you're BSing large amounts of time.

When someone notices that your skills and logbook don't make sense to each other (due to a incident or accident or just sucking at multi, tailwheel, etc) it's really easy to find out if you rented the plane or not, between the mx books, rental time sheet, receipts compared to your logbook.

Once that comes to light, your permanently F'd.

As all those dumb a$$ Indians that got busted a year or so ago.

You're telling me you can tell the difference between someone with 100 hours in an Apache and 600 hours conclusively by the way they fly? Come on man we all know pilots come with all kinds of skills not directly coupled to hours. In fact you argued that exact point here. My friend just picked up a new co-pilot with an ATP of course. He was amazed because the guy can't even talk on the radio or copy down a clearance correctly. Needless to say his flying is crap also.

We have a unique situation where someone is hired based on a log book that they solely maintain with NO over site. If they own an aircraft there isn't even a way to audit their flight history. Given the dollars at stake, i'll say it again, MANY to MOST pilots paying their own way into a job have cheated.

 

[ChitDisturber]

You're telling me you can tell the difference between someone with 100 hours in an Apache and 600 hours conclusively by the way they fly? Come on man we all know pilots come with all kinds of skills not directly coupled to hours. In fact you argued that exact point here. My friend just picked up a new co-pilot with an ATP of course. He was amazed because the guy can't even talk on the radio or copy down a clearance correctly. Needless to say his flying is crap also.

We have a unique situation where someone is hired based on a log book that they solely maintain with NO over site. If they own an aircraft there isn't even a way to audit their flight history. Given the dollars at stake, i'll say it again, MANY to MOST pilots paying their own way into a job have cheated.

What about all the money at stake if you get busted??

To be honest I've heard of people adding a tenth or two to a cross country to avoid having to fly another x-country, but straight making up entire flights and BSing hours.. Hundreds... That's outside of any pilots I have worked with, any of the students Ive trained, that's just asking for trouble IMO

And yes, if you BS enough hours you better be Hoover, because if something happens it's not that hard to find fake hours if you look, even more so if you're BSing 500hours in a multi (like you said).

And if they own their aircraft it's not hard to audit, compare the pilots log to the MX logs.

Are you Indian or something Alex, I find it odd, in the pilot groups I've been in its not done, only people I have heard of where its a semi-common practice are Indians.

 

[Alexb2000]

What about all the money at stake if you get busted??

To be honest I've heard of people adding a tenth or two to a cross country to avoid having to fly another x-country, but straight making up entire flights and BSing hours.. Hundreds... That's outside of any pilots I have worked with, any of the students Ive trained, that's just asking of trouble IMO

And yes, if you BS enough hours you better be Hoover, because if something happens it's not that hard to find fake hours if you look, even more so if you're BSing 500hours in a multi (like you said).

And if they own their aircraft it's not hard to audit, compare the pilots log to the MX logs.

Are you Indian or something Alex, I find it odd, in the pilot groups I've been in its not done, only people I have heard of where its a semi-common practice are Indians.

I'm talking about economic reality, not something race specific (I don't know where you are going with that Indian thing). There are a lot of young struggling pilots working their tails off, borrowing from family and friends to pursue their dream of being a professional pilot. The reality is that the bar is really high for a first job. We don't have check haulers, banner towers, etc. like we used to. Plus we have the new ATP and tighter insurance requirements. I know a guy that hires entry level commercial pilots. He won't interview below 1200 hours, period. That's his insurance requirement. He pays about $14K per year. so someone with 700 real hours, real ratings, could either scrimp and save to earn another 500 hours X $150 or $75000 working at McDonalds for another 10 years or start their career tomorrow. What are they going to do if they get caught? Nothing, but perhaps pull the tickets. What does that matter if the alternative to not cheating is 10 years flipping burgers.

Audit maintenance logs... OK, right.

 

[ChitDisturber]

. He won't interview below 1200 hours, period. That's his insurance requirement. He pays about $14K per year. so someone with 700 real hours, real ratings, could either scrimp and save to earn another 500 hours X $150 or $75000 working at McDonalds for another 10 years or start their career tomorrow. What are they going to do if they get caught? Nothing, but perhaps pull the tickets. What does that matter if the alternative to not cheating is 10 years flipping burgers.

Audit maintenance logs... OK, right.

OK, I thought you were in the industry for a second, so here is how it works for working pilots.

First off, I've never worked for 14k a year, not even my first flying job at just over 250tt.

So how does that pilot with 700tt get to 1200tt, HE GETS A F'ING JOB FLYING ANS BUILDS THEM, heck he'll probably make more then that crap 14k with only 700tt.

There are still banner ops if you have some tailwheel, work at a DZ, etc.
As for MX logs, hours at one mx event (annual, plugs, etc), hours recorded for for next mx event, take the hours between mx events compared to hours logged at the same time in his pilots log, aint rocket surgery!

Long and short if the pilot is too stupid or sleazy to get a entry job flying (which will probably pay more then the crap 14k your buddy pays) and build hours, he's doomed anyway and should stick to flipping those burgers.

 

[Alexb2000]

OK, I thought you were in the industry for a second, so here is how it works for working pilots.

First off, I've never worked for 14k a year, not even my first flying job at just over 250tt.

So how does that pilot with 700tt get to 1200tt, HE GETS A F'ING JOB FLYING ANS BUILDS THEM, heck he'll probably make more then that crap 14k with only 700tt.

There are still banner ops if you have some tailwheel, work at a DZ, etc.
As for MX logs, hours at one mx event (annual, plugs, etc), hours recorded for for next mx event, take the hours between mx events compared to hours logged at the same time in his pilots log, aint rocket surgery!

Long and short if the pilot is too stupid or sleazy to get a entry job flying (which will probably pay more then the crap 14k your buddy pays) and build hours, he's doomed anyway and should stick to flipping those burgers.

Have you ever been asked to show up at an interview with the maintenance logs of aircraft you've flown? Of course not, you wouldn't even have access to them unless you currently owned the aircraft. It's just a silly premise. Why not just interview them, check the FAA records, give them a check ride, and make up your mind? Leave the questions of honesty to the FAA and avoid getting sued by an applicant.

$14k is crap, especially in this area for cost of living. He has a stack of resumes 2' high at all times. Every once in awhile he just sides the pile into the trash when it gets too high. He would be the first to tell you that he would rather hire a guy with the right attitude, with only a comm and 200 hours, make him a copilot airplane washer for a year or two, train him/her to really fly, and then let them go do the job. Unfortunately, those days are in the past. Insurance decides what will or won't happen in an airplane and they set the floor at 1200 hours. It really isn't a problem, he has lots of applicants with thousands of hours.

Other than being an instructor I can't think of a single entry level commercial job you can get with much less time in this area.

 

[ChitDisturber]

Have you ever been asked to show up at an interview with the maintenance logs of aircraft you've flown? Of course not, you wouldn't even have access to them unless you currently owned the aircraft. It's just a silly premise..

I think we had a failure to communicate there.

It's not on the interview, it's when your 500hr pilot who BSed up a ATP worth of hours has a accident or incident and someone gets a wild hair that someone who states they have 1500hrs and 500multi, 300IMC shouldn't have made that type of rookie mistake, that's when someone might have a little looksie.

Or if he p1sses off someone who knows him and his real hours

And that's when this guys career will come to a screeching and long lasting halt.

$14k is crap, especially in this area for cost of living. He has a stack of resumes 2' high at all times.

And I'm sure any pilot with 1200hrs who sent in his CV to work for 14k is worth exactly that. It's cheaper to hire good pilots and pay them properly then deal with a lawsuit or repairs cleaning up after the dregs of cheap whore pilots. YMMV

Other than being an instructor I can't think of a single entry level commercial job you can get with much less time in this area.

Drop zone? Banners? Tow gliders? Photo pilot? Pipeline? Pt91 Corp? Etc
Get on climb to, will fly for food, flight level jobs, 350, barnstormers, etc

If your area doesn't offer good opportunities you move to somewhere that does, kinda in the job description for a sucessfull pilot, lawyer, doctor, or really anyone.

 

[Alexb2000]

I think we had a failure to communicate there.

It's not on the interview, it's when your 500hr pilot who BSed up a ATP worth of hours has a accident or incident and someone gets a wild hair that someone who states they have 1500hrs and 500multi, 300IMC shouldn't have made that type of rookie mistake, that's when someone might have a little looksie.

Or if he p1sses off someone who knows him and his real hours

And that's when this guys career will come to a screeching and long lasting halt.

We've discussed this on other threads. You can buy a real beater twin with a pencil whip annual for say $15K. Put it at some way out of the way sleepy airport. End of the year scrap it for say $5K and destroy the logs or put it in a container and send it overseas. You've logged 600 hours of multi, you cannot be caught, case closed. Of course I'm not advocating this, but it is obvious.

Why would someone do this? 600 hours X $300 (multi time rental in my area) or $180,000. OR $15K -$5K scrap equals $10K plus one annual and some gas $5k, or $15K TOTAL. This is just so obvious, it blows my mind. Of course it's wrong but we're talking about saving enough money to buy a house and that will always mean it happens. Besides its not like drug smuggling, you don't go to prison.

Given the number of pilots, how much enforcement of log books has been done? How many certificate actions? Not many except perhaps for the example you cited, which was just morbid stupidity. When something like certificate action based on log book cheating is this rare and it's so easy, does that mean it doesn't happen? If we really wanted to stop this, add a lie detector test to the medical.

 

[ChitDisturber]

We've discussed this on other threads. You can buy a real beater twin with a pencil whip annual for say $15K. Put it at some way out of the way sleepy airport. End of the year scrap it for say $5K and destroy the logs or put it in a container and send it overseas. You've logged 600 hours of multi, you cannot be caught, case closed. Of course I'm not advocating this, but it is obvious.

Why would someone do this? 600 hours X $300 (multi time rental in my area) or $180,000. OR $15K -$5K scrap equals $10K plus one annual and some gas $5k, or $15K TOTAL. This is just so obvious, it blows my mind. Of course it's wrong but we're talking about saving enough money to buy a house and that will always mean it happens. Besides its not like drug smuggling, you don't go to prison.

Given the number of pilots, how much enforcement of log books has been done? How many certificate actions? Not many except perhaps for the example you cited, which was just morbid stupidity. When something like certificate action based on log book cheating is this rare and it's so easy, does that mean it doesn't happen? If we really wanted to stop this, add a lie detector test to the medical.

Or, or, you could like hold up a airliner, demand the pilot give you dual instruction, then demand air to air refueling, then once you've logged enough 777 time you perform some Jedi mind tricks so no one remembers you, you jump out and open your parachute. You sit back thinking how AWSOME you are now that you have enough hours to finally work for some deadbeat in TX for 14k a year.


....while we are talking fantasy



OR, you just build up your hours like the last generation after generation of pilots have done.

 

[0luke1]

Interesting. I have a lot of Navy Helo pilot coworkers and friends and every single one of them has gotten vertigo at some point. None of them had trouble acknowledging the fact and fighting the other pilot for the controls. I'm not saying I don't believe you, just surprised that he fought you.

He was brand new to the squadron after a shore tour and a disassociated sea tour - roughly 6 years with minimal stick time. I think he was absolutely having trouble acknowledging the fact that he had vertigo - and really became fixated. I literally had to hit him in the shoulder to get him to let go of the controls, we were exceeding never exceed airspeed.

That's why I think it's legit to log the time - a safety pilot is really important.

Btw, almost all of my navy time is dual, never had that happen before or after. He was rattled after the fact, but the two crew and I kept our mouths shut. He was a good guy who had a bad day. I had him finish the approach and he did fine. I haven't told that story until now - it happened in the 1980s, so everyone involved is out/retired/deceased by now.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

The latest on APC are guys who are thinking of having 3 pilots logging PIC time in a twin. The left seat guy flying, the right seat safety pilot and an instructor providing instruction from the back seat.

I've known folks who fudged numbers back in the 1980's, so it's not like this is something new.

I don't feel sorry for the guys who are whining about the "new" requirements. Everyone I knew had to instruct to get enough time to even get a 135 cargo job. The regionals today, even with the new ATP requirement, hire folks with less time then when I got hired on flying cancelled checks in a Cherokee 6.

Will guys get caught? I don't know. With pressure to fill new hire class seats, I doubt it.

 

[JeffDG]

The latest on APC are guys who are thinking of having 3 pilots logging PIC time in a twin. The left seat guy flying, the right seat safety pilot and an instructor providing instruction from the back seat.

I've known folks who fudged numbers back in the 1980's, so it's not like this is something new.

I don't feel sorry for the guys who are whining about the "new" requirements. Everyone I knew had to instruct to get enough time to even get a 135 cargo job. The regionals today, even with the new ATP requirement, hire folks with less time then when I got hired on flying cancelled checks in a Cherokee 6.

Will guys get caught? I don't know. With pressure to fill new hire class seats, I doubt it.

Actually, the Pilot Flying + Safety Pilot + CFI for 3 logging PIC has been around for a while. Will they get caught? For logging time within the regulations? What they're doing is within the language of the regulations, there's nothing for them to "get caught" doing.

 

[poadeleted20]

That's also how a no-medical CFI-I can give instrument training, and a rather good way of giving a CFI trainee some real instructing practice (CFI trainee right front acting as PIC, CFI in the back teaching the CFI trainee, and "training dummy" in the left seat receiving simulated training from the CFI trainee in the right seat). Note, however, that in all these cases, the only time the right front seater can log PIC time is when the left front seater is hooded or they're in a 2-pilots-required aircraft. Otherwise, the right front seater is not required and not sole manipulator.