Local News Story this morning.

[ollopa]

In other words he didn't know how to switch tanks properly? I was taught that pump always goes on when switching tanks, not just in an emergency. I feel sorry for him because this happens to a lot of people, but it sure does sound like a whole lot of fail on the pilot's part.

I'm about 95% Cessna and 5% Cherokee by hours so this thread really piques my interest. I had a pretty short checkout on the Cherokee but it was drilled into my head that I should expect to one day run a tank dry due to my own carelessness and if the engine ever quits, it's pump on, switch tanks, then do the normal troubleshooting.

... Fixed tricycle gear Cessnas are so easy to fly

 

[Sac Arrow]

Well the scuttlebutt is that he tried switching tanks, but didn't turn the boost pump on like the POH says. I'm not sure I believe that, though I suppose the lines could be vulnerable to vapor lock like that. It wasn't a particularly warm night as I remember, though.

That could be the key right there. More than nine times out of ten if you forget to turn the boost pump on when you switch tanks (or start up, or take off) it won't make a difference but if you run the fuel out of the system by running a tank dry then all bets are off.

Not all Pipers have turning the fuel pump on as a checklist item when switching tanks. The Turbo Arrow has a two position fuel pump, but it isn't used in normal operation, it's just there in case vapor lock occurs.

 

[docmirror]

More than nine times out of ten if you forget to turn the boost pump on when you switch tanks (or start up, or take off) it won't make a difference but if you run the fuel out of the system by running a tank dry then all bets are off.

Not all Pipers have turning the fuel pump on as a checklist item when switching tanks. The Turbo Arrow has a two position fuel pump, but it isn't used in normal operation, it's just there in case vapor lock occurs.

For all aircraft certified under CAR and later regs, a certificated plane has to demonstrate that it can run out of fuel on a tank, switch tanks and restart again without touching any power/mixture controls. However, there are some requirements regarding boost pumps that are plane by plane dependent. So, if he had followed the emer checklist and switched tanks, then left the boost pump on, by demo under the regs, it will restart. I've tested this on a Piper 140, Bonanza, Varga Kachina, Grumman AA5. I have high confidence that it would have restarted on this plane as well.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Well, first there is an investigation done by the NTSB. Next the local police conduct a thorough investigation as well. After that is complete, the local EPA office comes in to make sure no lizards or bug-eye-yellow-bellied-sap-suckers were harmed as a result of the two previously mentioned investigations. After that, CalTrans comes out to do a road survey to accurately ascertain whether or not the surface of the roadway was in any way deformed from the previously mentioned investigations. Once that is complete, the NTSB fills out its reports. Once that is complete, the local police ask for the NTSB reports to fill out their reports. Once THAT is complete, the local EPA office asks the local police for the NTSB reports and the local police reports to fill out THEIR reports. After that, CalTrans checks for spelling errors and inappropriate use of the oxford comma. After that is completed, the PIC is asked to come to the local permit office to apply for a temporary-use permit to pull over at that particular portion of highway and retrieve the airplane. Once that permit is processed and approved, the now 92 year old pilot asks his great-grandchildren to drive him there so he can pick up that last piece of the airplane that has not yet deteriorated.


But that's just a cliffnotes version of events...

^^^^

 

[MAKG1]

The thing that gets me is that this Archer is equipped with a 430 with the 30 minute nag timer. How the HELL can you forget to switch tanks?

 

[Fearless Tower]

The thing that gets me is that this Archer is equipped with a 430 with the 30 minute nag timer. How the HELL can you forget to switch tanks?

Simple- you don't use/pay attention to the timer.

 

[asicer]

The thing that gets me is that this Archer is equipped with a 430 with the 30 minute nag timer. How the HELL can you forget to switch tanks?

He's a Cessna pilot unfamiliar with Pipers. He's probably also a steam gauge pilot unfamiliar with GPS. Good thing he wasn't flying a retract.

 

[MAKG1]

He's a Cessna pilot unfamiliar with Pipers. He's probably also a steam gauge pilot unfamiliar with GPS. Good thing he wasn't flying a retract.

Doubtful.

That airplane has a Sandel HSI. If you're into steam gauges, you take the Warrior right next to it, or one of the two 182s on the other side.

 

[asicer]

Doubtful.

That airplane has a Sandel HSI. If you're into steam gauges, you take the Warrior right next to it, or one of the two 182s on the other side.

A Warrior's iffy with 4 aboard and the 182s require an HP endorsement plus probably a club checkout, which he may or may not have.

 

[frcabot]

I had a chat with the manager this afternoon, and that is EXACTLY what happened. One tank was empty and the other full to the tabs.

No damage at all to the airplane, and the pilot is very lucky to be alive. There is a nearby electrical substation and a lot of transmission lines in the area, and he missed every one. The site was the Metcalf exit off 101 on the south side of San Jose.

No idea if the pilot is still allowed to rent.

Dear lord no. Here i was thinking we had Sully Jr. Instead we have that Colgan Air pilot jr.

 

[frcabot]

In other words he didn't know how to switch tanks properly? I was taught that pump always goes on when switching tanks, not just in an emergency. I feel sorry for him because this happens to a lot of people, but it sure does sound like a whole lot of fail on the pilot's part.

I'm about 95% Cessna and 5% Cherokee by hours so this thread really piques my interest. I had a pretty short checkout on the Cherokee but it was drilled into my head that I should expect to one day run a tank dry due to my own carelessness and if the engine ever quits, it's pump on, switch tanks, then do the normal troubleshooting.

... Fixed tricycle gear Cessnas are so easy to fly

I'm embarrassed to say but I ran a tank dry before. (I also found out at the same time that my L tank fuel low annunciator was inop - ie it illuminated during the light test but not irl when warranted). Scared the heck out of me because I wasn't paying attention but sure enough instinctively I went boost bump on, mix full rich, switch tanks and the engine came back to life. I also declared an emergency and then undeclared. When I flew out the next day, Tracon asked me whether I was the guy who had declared an emergency the night before. Lulz

If what's being reported is true, whoever signed this pilot off for the checkout is equally at fault.

 

[Stevel]

If what's being reported is true, whoever signed this pilot off for the checkout is equally at fault.

A person may perform perfectly in one instance, perhaps a checkout, and screw up the next time. The instructor may have done an inadequate checkout, but also may have done everything right. I'm not ready to place the blame on the instructor without more evidence.

 

[asicer]

A person may perform perfectly in one instance, perhaps a checkout, and screw up the next time. The instructor may have done an inadequate checkout, but also may have done everything right. I'm not ready to place the blame on the instructor without more evidence.

Yes, it's one thing to have an instructor next to you evaluating your every move and another to have 3 passenger buddies with an unknown quantity of drinks among them.

 

[frcabot]

A person may perform perfectly in one instance, perhaps a checkout, and screw up the next time. The instructor may have done an inadequate checkout, but also may have done everything right. I'm not ready to place the blame on the instructor without more evidence.

Ya but this seems pretty basic. Emergency procedures and checklist usage should be drilled in.

 

[Palmpilot]

I'm embarrassed to say but I ran a tank dry before...

I came close. About twenty years ago, as I was approaching the destination airport in an Archer, one of my pilot-passengers suggested switching tanks. I decided not to do so, on the theory that the fuel selector could fail at a relatively low altitude. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! After we landed, he looked in the tank and couldn't see any fuel.


The point I failed to consider is that pilots run tanks dry a lot more often than fuel selectors fail.

 

[StinkBug]

I've run a tank dry in my Mooney before, on purpose though. Up very high. I watched the fuel pressure needle drop about 30 seconds before the engine quit. Flipped on the switch, turned the handle and it restarted instantly. It's really a non-event as long as you have fuel in the other tank. I know a lot of guys who will run a tank dry on a long cross country so that they have all of their reserve fuel in one tank rather than just a few gallons sloshing around in each.

 

[ollopa]

I was also advised not to switch tanks during or just prior to critical phases of flight on the theory that one should stick with a known reliable fuel delivery system. The POH would have me switch to the fullest tank just before takeoff and landing, for example, whereas the advice was to switch before taxi and stick with that tank until climbout and to switch tanks on approach to the airport but before entering the pattern.

Hmmm... So the question is what to do if you find yourself just about to take off and realize you forgot to switch to the fullest tank. This has the makings of another epic POA "debate"

 

[Palmpilot]

The instructor I occasionally fly with recommends switching tanks before the runup, because if you do it after, there may not be enough time, and enough fuel usage, for a problem to make itself evident before the takeoff roll.

 

[dell30rb]

I'm a big believer in running tanks dry. Unless I have new passengers.

The first couple times you do it it always catches you off guard and its somewhat disconcerting.

After a while you just become conditioned to immediately go to the fuel tank switch when the engine loses power. In the event of a real power failure you would not be flustered by suddenly losing power, and your first instinct would be to check the fuel, which is the #1 cause of airplanes losing power.

The other benefit is you know exactly how much fuel you have burned out of a tank when it goes dry.

 

[MAKG1]

I was also advised not to switch tanks during or just prior to critical phases of flight on the theory that one should stick with a known reliable fuel delivery system. The POH would have me switch to the fullest tank just before takeoff and landing, for example, whereas the advice was to switch before taxi and stick with that tank until climbout and to switch tanks on approach to the airport but before entering the pattern.

Hmmm... So the question is what to do if you find yourself just about to take off and realize you forgot to switch to the fullest tank. This has the makings of another epic POA "debate"

Actually, the POH is misleading for at least some PA28s.

It says to switch to the "desired" tank before takeoff, not the fullest tank.

I'd argue that the "desired" tank is the one you're already using, unless it's almost empty.

It does say to switch to the fullest tank in the pre-landing checklist (and I think that's late, too). I've moved it to the descent checklist, as I'd rather discover a problem with 4000 feet below me instead of 800.

There are certain places I won't switch tanks, unless it's really dire.

1. All movement areas prior to takeoff, including run-up (I will switch it during or before taxi, though, to make sure both positions work -- generally start on the lower tank, then switch after getting taxi clearance or when ready to taxi).
2. Below 2000 AGL.
3. Over hostile terrain.

In almost all cases, the tank switch can be delayed a few minutes for better conditions.