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Unit74

Unit74

Final Approach
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Mar 8, 2014
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Unit74
Rant On

I'm inbound and descending 15 miles out and announce. I hear traffic at the uncontrolled airport but no clue what runway they are using. At 10 miles I call out to traffic and ask what runway he's using. No reply.

5 miles out I hear him call upwind 26... Great. I know what entry to make and call out intentions. I enter the 45 as he is turning base. I call all my legs out.

I fly my pattern and as I'm on a 1 mile final, numb nuts announces he is now back-taxing 8 and will stay in the pattern. I see him roll past the taxiway turn out and spin a U-turn. Now I'm on a short final and jack wad finally sees me. As I am going around, he finally comes on the radio and say I can hold here if you want to come in. HE's STILL ON THE ACTIVE RUN WAY!!!

I said, "I'll bring it back around and try this again." He taxis off by the gas pumps. I bring it in and he says this to me....

"Sorry, we are a student pilot and had the radio turned down." I said, "well I called for you several times from 15 miles out and heard nothing." Him: "yea, we had the radio down."

I said, "Well at least your not being asked to copy a number down." He laughs.

There were 2 other planes inbound when this was all going down. But the worst part is this guy is a CFI at the field. He knows there is traffic all day long on a Sat, especially today as it was a great day to fly. Not to mention his complete lack of situational awareness and poor demonstration of safety.

I know its an uncontrolled field and he doesn't need to talk to anyone, but this field is active and just an absolute poor demonstration of professionalism.

I speculate that what happened was since we are on unicom and no less than 4 other fields can be heard on the radio at pattern alt., he turned the radio down to talk and instruct since there were a lot of aircraft in the sky today. I say deal with it numb nuts, it's good training.

His see and avoid skills are also rather lacking as I could see him as I passed the numbers and he was on final. I was all lit up just for him as well.

Rant Off
 
Damn I hate when people behave legally but not the way I think they should. Get em up against the wall, if I had my I have all the fat people shot. Just disgusting the way some people are.
 
Before he realized his radio was turned-down, he was probably wondering why you never made any radio calls. Stuff happens, good job staying out of his way.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Damn I hate when people behave legally but not the way I think they should. Get em up against the wall, if I had my I have all the fat people shot. Just disgusting the way some people are.
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Doesn't really matter when we are both dead I guess... Since when is it OK to switch runway direction with planes in the pattern?

Your not a CFI in Central Arkansas are you? Might explain your rationale.
 
FastEddieB said:
Before I rant, I ask myself if I've ever in my career made exactly the same mistake.

I have, BTW.

More than once.

It happens.
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This.

With experience you'll learn not to get your blood pressure up over people doing stupid stuff in the pattern, on the runway, on the radio, etc. if you don't, you'll eventually stroke out. Your little "at least you didn't get a number" comment just sounds stupid and pompous. Are you the pattern police?

Go with the flow, folks, go with the flow.
 
If you didn't have a clue, you should have overflown the airport +500' and checked it out.
 
Unit74 said:
I fly my pattern and as I'm on a 1 mile final, numb nuts announces he is now back-taxing 8 and will stay in the pattern. I see him roll past the taxiway turn out and spin a U-turn. Now I'm on a short final and jack wad finally sees me. As I am going around, he finally comes on the radio and say I can hold here if you want to come in. HE's STILL ON THE ACTIVE RUN WAY!!!
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ClimbnSink said:
Damn I hate when people behave legally but not the way I think they should.
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The guy on the runway may not have been behaving legally, since he didn't exit the runway at the taxiway turnout and then made no attempt to get off the runway to make way for a landing aircraft:

14 CFR 91.113
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach
 
This isn't a legal problem, it's a courtesy problem. The CFI had his hat on training, and wasn't thinking about anything or anyone else. The sky, the pattern, the runway all belong to HIM and HIS student(we had the radio turned down), and everyone else will just have to accommodate HIM until HE is done with the facilities, and HE WILL THEN LET YOU KNOW.

We've all seen them, some of you(review your post) are them. Courtesy can't be legislated, you just need to account for the self-centered, left-lane hog, radio turned down, dipshytes of the world. They cost us time, money and on occasion safety, but no law was broken so I guess that makes it fine. This is the same guy who stands in the middle of the doorway, yakking to his buddy so that you can't get through. It's the same guy on his cell phone in the Subway line, ignoring the rest of the people behind him. It's the same guy who pushes your carry-on out of the overhead so he can get his 70Lb suitcase up there. Yup, some of them have pilots licenses as well.
 
Agreed he should have gotten off the runway or tried to scan for other airplanes in the pattern. But hey, thats why you practice go-arounds. A CFI should have a little more SA. If he turned it down when they were working in the area, he should add radio volume to whatever area checklist he uses(if he uses one at all). If it was on the ground, he should have checked the squelch after he turned the avionics on.

I remember my first go-around as a student pilot was cause some jackwagon just blatantly entered the runway to take-off while I was on short final. Think of what you did as defensive-flying :D
 
Unit74 said:
Doesn't really matter when we are both dead I guess...
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Come on, you were behind him in the pattern, you saw him on base and final. You saw him back taxiing on the runway and heard his transmissions. So how exactly were you both going to end up dead? :dunno:
 
docmirror said:
This isn't a legal problem, it's a courtesy problem. The CFI had his hat on training, and wasn't thinking about anything or anyone else. The sky, the pattern, the runway all belong to HIM and HIS student(we had the radio turned down)...
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I assumed he meant, but perhaps left unsaid, "We had the radio turned down by mistake".

When a CFI is "multi-tasking", it's not hard to do. Like I said, it happens - and I've even had it happen at towered airports. I'm not sure there exists an instructor with substantial hours instructing that has NOT had it happen at least once.

Anyway, my habit is to periodically reach up and defeat the auto squelch of the radio (if present) to hear the reassuring hiss that tells me we have the volume and audio panel set properly.

Reminds me of when I get behind some idiot on the freeway that has his or her turn signal on mile after mile. Before ranting, I always glance down to be sure mine isn't on as well!
 
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Oh c'mon. It's pretty obvious he wasn't intentionally ignoring you. The radio was down by accident. In fact, they were making radio calls, just unknowingly in the blind with the volume down. It happens. You'll do it one of these days too.
 
Silvaire said:
Come on, you were behind him in the pattern, you saw him on base and final. You saw him back taxiing on the runway and heard his transmissions. So how exactly were you both going to end up dead? :dunno:
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No, I didn't see him back taxi. He annoucced it on my short final as he passed the taxiway turn out and spun around. That's when I realized what he was doing. If he had not turn up his radio and continued his take off, we would had been head to head. I imagine he saw my landing light and was like awe crap....


What I find disturbing is some of the folks that are like, whatever no biggie.


I'm pretty easy going and have had to work around many pilots not doing what is correct or just good practice. Myself included. But the guy is a CFI with a student and I can only hope he debriefed the student and fell on his sword.
 
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is this some kind of acting exercise, to see how over-dramatic you can be ?

Let's rephrase: "I was on short final but another plane didn't clear the runway so I had to go around." Simply stated as the mundane facts they are, the episode doesn't even merit a mention during conversation at dinner, much less "both of you winding up dead"
 
Well, you must be the director then....thanks for playing.

Since when is it ok to violate the FAR then attempt to take off facing a landing aircraft?
 
There us no such thing as an active runway without a control tower. There is no foul here if you can't handle this I suggest bowling might be an activity you are better suited for.
 
ClimbnSink said:
There us no such thing as an active runway without a control tower. There is no foul here if you can't handle this I suggest bowling might be an activity you are better suited for.
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Wow...just wow. I hope your not a CFI. I'd Prolly ask for a refund if I was your student.
 
ClimbnSink said:
There us no such thing as an active runway without a control tower. There is no foul here if you can't handle this I suggest bowling might be an activity you are better suited for.
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Correct on both points.
 
The VFR system operated as designed, see and avoid. Nothing else here merits much discussion.
 
I'm seeing a minor annoyance here, but not a major one.
 
My instructor used to say, "fly your own airplane." I do understand the frustration but sure I have inconvenienced other people in the pattern at some point myself.
 
FastEddieB said:
I assumed he meant, but perhaps left unsaid, "We had the radio turned down by mistake".
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Assuming facts not in evidence, nor supported by the direct quote from the OP: "Sorry, we are a student pilot and had the radio turned down."

The "Sorry" and the reasoning of a student indicate to me that they purposely turned the radio down to effect training.

Also, how does one turn a radio down by mistake? I think every radio since Marconi has the common attribute of turning it CW to increase volume, and CCW to decrease. Do you think the pilot turned it CCW thinking he was increasing volume? Does not pass the smell test.
 
Unit74 said:
Well, you must be the director then....thanks for playing.

Since when is it ok to violate the FAR then attempt to take off facing a landing aircraft?
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Sadly, the fact is that as long as that plane is on that runway, it belongs to him to do as he pleases until he clears off it. Technically, they could sit there on the runway and debrief if the CFI wanted to, as long as he considers it part of the flight, and necessary. Of course, common sense be damned, but like I said, this isn't a legal issue it's an 'I am busy here, you folks can just wait'.
 
91.113 is pretty clear though. He was taxiing to take off, not on a roll out. Add on he was now reversing the pattern with other aircraft established in the pattern and it's a disaster waiting to happen. The runway was mine and he knew it. Tack on that he actually suggested he remain on the runway while I land was incredibly irresponsible for a "professional".

AIM 4-1-9 also says he has an obligation to monitor the CTAF and announce. The CFI only announced and was clueless as to what he was doing.

I don't really care about having to go around. What I care about is a careless pilot not following established procedure creating a hazard to other people. If he want to lawn dart himself, go right ahead. When he forces other people to be one subjected to his irresponsible operations, I take issue with that.
 
If you feel violated, then violate him. Write to; FAA, chief counsel. Wash DC. Discourteous? Sure, unsafe? Probably, didn't read/understand the AIM? Who knows, breach of FAR? I'm on the fence, but at this point doubtful. The chief counsel will let you know.

Oh, and the runway was not "yours" as long as his wheels are still on it. You alluded to that when you said you would not land with him on the runway surface, which was the correct decision.
 
Sounds more like you were "careless," in that it upset your ability to avigate, navigate, communicate.

It was a simple go around. Anger management?
 
DFH65 said:
Just beep your horn. :lol:
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I keep thinking that this might actually be a good idea. It would help get people out of your when doing a forced landing on the beach :yesnod:

Of course, tso'd it would cost $3500.
 
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docmirror said:
Also, how does one turn a radio down by mistake? I think every radio since Marconi has the common attribute of turning it CW to increase volume, and CCW to decrease. Do you think the pilot turned it CCW thinking he was increasing volume? Does not pass the smell test.
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I think it's commonplace to momentarily turn the radio volume down to effectively communicate a point to a student. What happens is that's followed by a distraction, whereby it does not get turned back up.

Happens all the time, as instructors juggle numerous tasks.

Monitor guard and you'll see even airline crews go "off frequency" with some regularity. Most probably do not involve turning the volume down, but I'll bet some do.
 
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Nice try at discrediting me, but it's clear I executed the proper actions. I went around and announced, reestablished myself and completed the landing when he exited the runway.

I was just fine and handled the situation as would anyone would have done. But thanks for trying to be a pot stirred. With people like you around, NTSB investigators remain gainfully employed.
 
FastEddieB said:
I think it's commonplace to momentarily turn the radio volume down to effectively communicate a point to a student. What happens is a distraction, whereby it does not get turned back up.

Happens all the time, as instructors juggle numerous tasks.

Monitor guard and you'll see even airline crews go "off frequency" with some regularity. Most probably do not involve turning the volume down, but I'll bet some do.
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OK, I can groc this. But that isn't what you said. You said it was "turned down by mistake", and now you are saying that it was turned down for a defined purpose(instruction). So, was the lowered volume a mistake, meaning he turned it the wrong way, or turned the tuning knob which has clicks and shows the freq change? Or was it intentional, meaning they turned the correct knob the correct way and they then left it down?
 
docmirror said:
OK, I can groc this. But that isn't what you said. You said it was "turned down by mistake", and now you are saying that it was turned down for a defined purpose(instruction). So, was the lowered volume a mistake, meaning he turned it the wrong way, or turned the tuning knob which has clicks and shows the freq change? Or was it intentional, meaning they turned the correct knob the correct way and they then left it down?
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Now you're just being pedantic.

I'll let others decide if my meaning was clear enough.
 
Then there is my local airport where I frequently use the crosswind runway. Now I don't do that if it is busy - hasn't been since gas went past $5. And I avoid confusing the folks on a busy.
But if you are just listening to me on the way in to determine the wind you may find yourself getting your xwind landing skills polished up nice and shiny since I do it even on a 20 knot day.
Took the airport manager out two days ago for a quick trip around the pattern - that turned into three trips. He said it is the first time in his life to land in three different directions inside of 15 minutes.
The seagulls complained loudly but I don't think they are calling the FSDO on me.
 
denverpilot said:
This. He wasn't even required to turn the radio on.
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Only one person has asserted the other plane did anything illegal, and it didn't have anything to do with the radio.

While anything not illegal is legal, that doesn't mean it is advisible, smart, courteous, safe, sensible or anything else.

We live and work in a cooperative environment. People who forget that make problems for others at a minimum.

I think the instructor screwed up. He relied on backups -- other people paying attention. Anyone with an ounce of sense gets nervous when depending on backups. Even though it is legal in most cases, it is not smart.
 
I don't think this post went the way the OP had wanted it to go....

In my very short 25 hours of flying I personally have left the radio turned down. It wasn't on accident I turned to down to talk to the CFI and then at some point we didn't turn it back up until I got to the runway and noticed it was down. (Uncontrolled Airport)

I've also had planes flying out there without radios or not responding, taking off or landing downwind, opposite of 'normal' pattern. All I can do is watch out for myself and if I see someone on the runway, facing downwind, not on the radio... I stay high and go around for another loop.
 
To everyone who thinks the OP is over-reacting, cross-check the first word he used in the thread title.
 
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