Little freaked on my lesson

[RotorDude]

so how do you actually measure the AOA? I am not up for stall training yet, but from what I read, at certain weight and airspeed too much bank or pitch will let you cross the Critical AOA. do you just guess it and the guess becomes more and more accurate as you fly? or is there a scientific way of measuring it (without an AOA indicator)

Have you bought "Stick and Rudder"? That is one timeless book that tells it like it is. It is of course dated (and focuses on "conventional gear" because that was the convention back then), but is still very relevant today, esp. when it comes to pattern flying, landing, stalling, etc. Highly recommended for any aspiring pilot.
(And they had no AOA indicators in those days.)

 

[MAKG1]

When you get to practicing stalls, especially power on stalls, you'll be SHOCKED at how far you have to take it before a plane like a 172 or 140 will stall on you. The 172 will hang on the prop for a while before it actually breaks.

It's even more fun trying to MAKE a 182 stall power-on, especially loaded lightly. You generally have to reduce power (say, to 20 inches) in order to keep the pitch angle close to sane.

It is substantially easier to stall an airplane when you are already flying slow. Though you can indeed stall at any airspeed and any attitude (basically, by yanking the elevator hard enough), it's a lot easier to upset the aircraft in slow flight.

 

[MAKG1]

so how do you actually measure the AOA? I am not up for stall training yet, but from what I read, at certain weight and airspeed too much bank or pitch will let you cross the Critical AOA. do you just guess it and the guess becomes more and more accurate as you fly? or is there a scientific way of measuring it (without an AOA indicator)

Your stall horn is a kind of rough AOA indicator. It bleeps above a given AOA.

There are basically two kinds of AOA probes. The simplest to understand is just a rotating vane hanging off the wing that measures the relative wind. AOA = wing angle - relative wind angle, by definition. Another kind has no moving parts -- just two ports at different angles -- and measures differential pressure between them. It looks a lot like a Piper pitot tube, with two ram ports instead of one.

 

[WannFly]

Have you bought "Stick and Rudder"? That is one timeless book that tells it like it is. It is of course dated (and focuses on "conventional gear" because that was the convention back then), but is still very relevant today, esp. when it comes to pattern flying, landing, stalling, etc. Highly recommended for any aspiring pilot.
(And they had no AOA indicators in those days.)

I did and have started reading it.. a few chapters in and I already love the way its explained there.. like how wings fly, makes a lot of sense than all kind of theories that I read in king school. I went back to king school to get a few chapters in, but plan to finish stick and rudder as soon as I can

 

[JoseCuervo]

Always be thinking about where to put the plane down if the engine quits.

They all do instrument ratings, if that's what you are referring to, and they are all also career pilots. I trust them. It's not that they told me to glue my eyes to the ground and off the flight instruments, just take a glance every few minutes

Ok, you have now gone from "always be thinking" to "just take a glance every few minutes". Those are quite different behaviours, and, quite different pieces of advice, both to you, and from you.

My question to you on your Instrument Instuctors (CFI-I) was what do the three you have flown with advise for their students when in the clouds, or on top of the clouds. Do they still want them to "always be thinking" or to "just take a glance every few minutes", and, if so, how do they advise that get accomplished?

I think Jose was focusing on CFII's, not "instrument rated CFI's") and was curious to know if they tell their instrument students to "constantly keep an eye outside for an emergency landing spot if the engine quits".

Thanks. I may not have been clear.

It is kind of like the old trick the Designated Examiners will use on checkrides, where they suddenly pull the throttle, watch the student scramble to try and line up to land on a road/field, etc, when, there was actually a small airport 1 mile behind. And the Examiner feels all smug because they knew something the student didn't know. And they just reinforce bad instruction habits to the student's CFI, as that is what the DE is going to spring on the student. When, in fact, there are some other skills the student would be better served by, than constantly looking at the ground for landing spots.

 

[MAKG1]

that's what I hear, not up for stall yet and to be very honest not looking forward to it, but I know I have to cross that bridge...

Stalls are kinda fun, actually.

Once you learn how to control the airplane in a stall (hint: RUDDER), it's not scary at all.

 

[Vance Breese]

Dang that is horrible advice, and a horrible way to have to fly.

I can't think of anything that takes the joy out of flying than it would to "always be thinking about where to put the plane down if the engine quits".

At this stage, he should be thinking about learning how to fly, what it looks like when straight and level. How turns look, etc. The last thing he needs to be looking at is which direction rows are in corn fields 3000 feet below him.

I feel landing is an important part of flying and in my experience it does not always happen according to plan.

I feel there would be fewer dead pilots if they had a plan B for landing.

If you don’t want to think about it fly high enough to reach an airport when the engine gets quiet.

I demonstrate power off flight in my first flight with a new client.

 

[WannFly]

Your stall horn is a kind of rough AOA indicator. It bleeps above a given AOA.

There are basically two kinds of AOA probes. The simplest to understand is just a rotating vane hanging off the wing that measures the relative wind. AOA = wing angle - relative wind angle, by definition. Another kind has no moving parts -- just two ports at different angles -- and measures differential pressure between them. It looks a lot like a Piper pitot tube, with two ram ports instead of one.

I was hoping I could figure that out before I hear the stall horn.. guess without actually facing a stall its kinda garbled in my head

 

[iamtheari]

Sorry, but incorrect again. Even if you are perfectly coordinated, do nothing abruptly, and have lots of speed (e.g. on that infamous base-to-final turn) you may still stall if you bank too steeply and hold pitch. Why? Because you exceeded the maximum angle of attack. So instead of focusing on speed, think "angle of attack". You won't stall if you keep it below the stalling angle, under any flight condition.

I think we are on different wavelengths here, as I can't find anything I said that actually disagrees with what you said after "incorrect again." (And don't be sorry. As I said, I'm here to learn and don't assume someone who disagrees with me on the Internet is automatically attacking my legitimacy as a human being.) I have never claimed that the plane will not stall when the critical angle of attack is exceeded or that it will stall prior to that point. If you bank too steeply and hold pitch, you will indeed exceed the wing's critical angle of attack and stall. But won't that happen at an airspeed that, in a light plane, you can calculate from the bank angle? If you are banked 60 degrees and flying in coordinated, level flight at more than 1.4 times the stall speed, how do you exceed the critical angle of attack without doing something abrupt or inappropriate?

My point has been this: The wing stalls at a certain AOA, but the airspeed indicator is the only indication that all airplanes have from which the plane's margin below the critical angle of attack can be determined. That determination depends a lot on bank angle, a lot on wing contamination, and, in small planes, a little on weight.

Again, a pilot absolutely should understand angle of attack, especially in terms of not inadvertently doing anything to the airplane that will result in exceeding the critical angle of attack, such as pulling back hard on the yoke to save a late base-to-final turn. What other thoughts about angle of attack do you suggest a new pilot have in his mind to keep the airplane flying?

I agree with what you're saying, unless it's to ignore airspeed for purposes of stall awareness/avoidance, which I don't think you are.

Have you bought "Stick and Rudder"? That is one timeless book that tells it like it is. It is of course dated (and focuses on "conventional gear" because that was the convention back then), but is still very relevant today, esp. when it comes to pattern flying, landing, stalling, etc. Highly recommended for any aspiring pilot.
(And they had no AOA indicators in those days.)

I second the book recommendation. I don't think it directly answers the question of whether there is "a scientific way of measuring" AOA, but it's a must-read book.

 

[MAKG1]

I was hoping I could figure that out before I hear the stall horn.. guess without actually facing a stall its kinda garbled in my head

The current ACS treats the stall horn like a real stall. IMO, that's a big mistake; it's a good thing for a student to experience real stalls and just how much warning the stall warning gives. For simple, straight ahead stalls, it's a lot. For skidding stalls, it may not be.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I feel landing is an important part of flying and in my experience it does not always happen according to plan.

I feel there would be fewer dead pilots if they had a plan B for landing.

If you don’t want to think about it fly high enough to reach an airport when the engine gets quiet.

I demonstrate power off flight in my first flight with a new client.

Do you limit your flights only to places with suitable Plan B landing spots?

I fly backcountry a fair bit. I would lose a ton of utility of my plane if I was limited to flying only when I have a Plan B. And what about in the clouds?

 

[Vance Breese]

Do you limit your flights only to places with suitable Plan B landing spots?

I fly backcountry a fair bit. I would lose a ton of utility of my plane if I was limited to flying only when I have a Plan B. And what about in the clouds?

I try to limit my flight over unsuitable landing areas.

This does limit my flying and also causes me to seldom fly direct.

I probably don’t need as big a landing zone as you do.

I have a terrible glide ratio.

I fly VFR.

 

[mscard88]

Not sure which 4:1 you mean. The Phantom glides at 5:1. The R-22 and space shuttle glide at 4:1.
.

F-4 is what I meant.

 

[RotorDude]

I think we are on different wavelengths here, as I can't find anything I said that actually disagrees with what you said after "incorrect again."
...
My point has been this: The wing stalls at a certain AOA, but the airspeed indicator is the only indication that all airplanes have from which the plane's margin below the critical angle of attack can be determined.

I quoted the part that was incorrect, so I don't think it's a "wavelength" issue. You said that if you fly fast and coordinated and make no abrupt inputs, you won't stall, which is wrong (e.g. in a tight turn).
Regarding your above highlighted statement, it's also incorrect.
First, some airplanes do have an AoA indicator, though it's only recently become available for the lower tier (which is most of us here). Second, something as simple as the position of your stick/yoke will tell you a lot about your AoA. If you never pull back on it, you'd probably never stall in most airplanes, since the position of the elevator is strongly correlated to AoA in most planes, but that's something you have to learn about each plane you fly. Also, you can deduce it from all other parameters.

 

[iamtheari]

The current ACS treats the stall horn like a real stall. IMO, that's a big mistake; it's a good thing for a student to experience real stalls and just how much warning the stall warning gives. For simple, straight ahead stalls, it's a lot. For skidding stalls, it may not be.

The point that WannFly seems to have missed in your previous post is that the stall horn goes off BEFORE the wing stalls. A person COULD set up slow flight with the stall horn blaring and fly that way all day long (as long as he doesn't want to turn much). It would definitely be better for the ACS to require all pilots to learn not just how to make the stall horn go off and how to stop it, but also how much margin they have between the horn sounding and the wing stalling in each of the types of stalls that get taught.

To WannFly: You'll learn a LOT when you work on slow flight and on stalls with your instructor. One thing you'll learn is how much warning you have before the plane actually stalls. And I don't mean from a red light or a horn. You absolutely will understand from the feel of the airplane that you are approaching a stall. In most training airplanes, that will occur long before it actually stalls. Don't be intimidated by these lessons. These are the airplane equivalent of learning how to start moving forward on a bicycle, except probably safer.

 

[MAKG1]

The point that WannFly seems to have missed in your previous post is that the stall horn goes off BEFORE the wing stalls. A person COULD set up slow flight with the stall horn blaring and fly that way all day long (as long as he doesn't want to turn much). It would definitely be better for the ACS to require all pilots to learn not just how to make the stall horn go off and how to stop it, but also how much margin they have between the horn sounding and the wing stalling in each of the types of stalls that get taught.

To WannFly: You'll learn a LOT when you work on slow flight and on stalls with your instructor. One thing you'll learn is how much warning you have before the plane actually stalls. And I don't mean from a red light or a horn. You absolutely will understand from the feel of the airplane that you are approaching a stall. In most training airplanes, that will occur long before it actually stalls. Don't be intimidated by these lessons. These are the airplane equivalent of learning how to start moving forward on a bicycle, except probably safer.

Could be.

I learned to fly in 2011, and at that time, "slow flight" was considered to be flying around with the stall horn going off continuously. You can do quite a lot like that without stalling the airplane, even gentle to moderate level turns. Nearly six years and over 500 hours, I have yet to unintentionally stall an airplane, though I go out for slow flight (WITH the stall horn sounding) at least a few times per year.

 

[iamtheari]

I quoted the part that was incorrect, so I don't think it's a "wavelength" issue. You said that if you fly fast and coordinated and make no abrupt inputs, you won't stall, which is wrong (e.g. in a tight turn).

I actually did not say that. You quoted some of my words and then disagreed with other words, which were not mine. In any event, can you explain how the angle of attack will exceed the critical angle of attack if you are in a stabilized, level turn flying in excess of Vso times the square root of the load factor and do not make an abrupt change in the control surfaces?

Regarding your above highlighted statement, it's also incorrect.
First, some airplanes do have an AoA indicator, though it's only recently become available for the lower tier (which is most of us here).

Again, you are disagreeing with something that I did not actually say. The highlighted statement was, in context, "the airspeed indicator is the only indication that all airplanes have..." (underlining mine). Of course, some airplanes do have an AOA indicator. But some airplanes do not, and therefore it is not accurate to say that "all" airplanes do have one. And what I said is that the airspeed indicator is the only thing that "all airplanes have."

Second, something as simple as the position of your stick/yoke will tell you a lot about your AoA. If you never pull back on it, you'd probably never stall in most airplanes, since the position of the elevator is strongly correlated to AoA in most planes, but that's something you have to learn about each plane you fly. Also, you can deduce it from all other parameters.

I certainly should have used the word "measurement" rather than "indication." There are many things that will tell you something about the AOA while you are flying, and a person could call those "indications." But you seem to be resisting all requests to help us understand ways to measure your actual AOA other than an AOA indicator, which few small planes have, and the airspeed indicator, which all planes have.

 

[RotorDude]

I actually did not say that. You quoted some of my words and then disagreed with other words, which were not mine. In any event, can you explain how the angle of attack will exceed the critical angle of attack if you are in a stabilized, level turn flying in excess of Vso times the square root of the load factor and do not make an abrupt change in the control surfaces?


Again, you are disagreeing with something that I did not actually say. The highlighted statement was, in context, "the airspeed indicator is the only indication that all airplanes have..." (underlining mine). Of course, some airplanes do have an AOA indicator. But some airplanes do not, and therefore it is not accurate to say that "all" airplanes do have one. And what I said is that the airspeed indicator is the only thing that "all airplanes have."


I certainly should have used the word "measurement" rather than "indication." There are many things that will tell you something about the AOA while you are flying, and a person could call those "indications." But you seem to be resisting all requests to help us understand ways to measure your actual AOA other than an AOA indicator, which few small planes have, and the airspeed indicator, which all planes have.

Regarding the Vso and square root of load factor part, this is the first time I see you mention it. My point regarding AoA vs. Speed is that in flight you can't calculate square roots and probably don't know your load factor, so that technique is impractical. OTOH, either you have an AoA indicator (ideal), or you don't pull back on the yoke/stick (easy, but requires knowing your airplane well), or deduce your AoA from other parameters, which requires experience. The bottom line is that speed is not a magic cure, and assuming blindly that if you are flying fast (e.g. in the pattern) you won't stall is dangerous.

Regarding your statement that "airspeed is the only instrument that all airplanes have", I guess I misunderstood it to imply that no airplane has other ways to determine AoA.

Anyway, bottom line again, my issue was with your implication that all you need is to fly fast and you won't stall, and that can be a very dangerous mindset. I suspect many of the pilots who crashed and burned on the turn from base to final believed that to be true, yet it didn't help them. Had they been thinking "watch your AoA, you idiot!", I think many would be alive today, even if they had no AoA gauge per se.

 

[iamtheari]

Regarding the Vso and square root of load factor part, this is the first time I see you mention it. My point regarding AoA vs. Speed is that in flight you can't calculate square roots and probably don't know your load factor, so that technique is impractical. OTOH, either you have an AoA indicator (ideal), or you don't pull back on the yoke/stick (easy, but requires knowing your airplane well), or deduce your AoA from other parameters, which requires experience. The bottom line is that speed is not a magic cure, and assuming blindly that if you are flying fast (e.g. in the pattern) you won't stall is dangerous.

Regarding your statement that "airspeed is the only instrument that all airplanes have", I guess I misunderstood it to imply that no airplane has other ways to determine AoA.

Anyway, bottom line again, my issue was with your implication that all you need is to fly fast and you won't stall, and that can be a very dangerous mindset. I suspect many of the pilots who crashed and burned on the turn from base to final believed that to be true, yet it didn't help them. Had they been thinking "watch your AoA, you idiot!", I think many would be alive today, even if they had no AoA gauge per se.

Thus my comment about wavelength. I never meant to imply that all you need is to fly fast and you won't stall. A little more clarity on that point in any of my posts above would have probably shortened our conversation significantly. And yes, when you are turning base to final in particular, you should be thinking about AOA because, whether you can measure it or not, that is the mindset that will keep you alive. I hope that anyone reading this and, in particular, the OP will take that away from the conversation: Airspeed is how you set up best glide, approach speed, slow flight, and stall practice. AOA is what determines whether you fly or stall. The relationship between airspeed and AOA is one of the fundamental things that failing to understand will result in unintentional stalls.

 

[mscard88]

Great discussion! Everyone following along?

 

[abqtj]

I'm pretty sure this thread isn't mine anymore

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

I'm pretty sure this thread isn't mine anymore

Happens a lot on POA. Sorry!

 

[iamtheari]

Happens a lot on POA. Sorry!

No kidding. Even the thread a while back about posting a random thread about nothing as the best way to get the actual answer to the guy's question got derailed, if I remember right. Maybe check there for help on the lesson jitters.

 

[TylerSC]

Yesterday was my second official flight lesson.

I did my first take off, wasn't pretty or coordinated, but got straightened out fairly quickly. Headed out to the practice area and did some turns and such. Then before we were heading back my instructor pulled the throttle to idle to simulate loss of power.

Got pretty nervous, but he was calm as can be the whole time. Talked through our procedures, pitched for desired airspeed, determined a landing spot, etc. Maneuvered to line up for the road we chose (after some discussion on him explaining why this one would be better than the one I chose initially). We kept descending as if to land, then once he felt like we were sure we could make it, put power back in and we climbed out of there.

Whole time I couldn't believe how well the plane can handle without power. Really demonstrates that planes don't just fall from the sky I guess.

After this, we headed back and did one touch and go then a landing. I took the second landing (my first also). Again, not pretty, but no parts left on the runway and the plane was in good shape when we parked it

Flying is awesome! Soon you will be up there by yourself, wondering how things got to this point. There is always something new to learn, and I find learning each step to be very rewarding. I am doing solo cross-country flights now, and I like to always have some kind of plan for engine trouble. Of course, I started out as a glider pilot so I might have a little different perspective!

 

[denverpilot]

Could be.

I learned to fly in 2011, and at that time, "slow flight" was considered to be flying around with the stall horn going off continuously. You can do quite a lot like that without stalling the airplane, even gentle to moderate level turns. Nearly six years and over 500 hours, I have yet to unintentionally stall an airplane, though I go out for slow flight (WITH the stall horn sounding) at least a few times per year.

I haven't met any instructors (yet) who aren't going to teach both what I'll now dub "minimum controllable airspeed" (MCA) flight with the stall horn blaring and the airplane at the point where any reduction in power or increase in pitch will result in a stall, as well as the "new" ACS slow flight standards.

Just because you won't need the former for a checkride doesn't mean it won't be taught. It MUST be. It'll just be called something other than "slow flight" so as not to be accidentally misunderstood by ACS-graded candidates.

Even if your examiner doesn't require you to demonstrate it on a checkride, you'll still have to demonstrate it for me...

You must know what the aircraft feels like and acts like, flying that slow. You must also learn that all it takes at that point is more back pressure and being uncoordinated (yaw) and it's going to try to spin, and that you must use rudder pressure and NO aileron input, to stop it.

As far as intro to stalls goes, INTRO to stalls need not be violent or abrupt in any way at all, and introducing them roughly to a timid or frightened student who's afraid of the WORD "stall" but who's never SEEN one, is a good way to make them more scared instead of less scared. All you have to do is set up an idle power glide and then pitch to attempt to hold altitude.* It'll happen all nice and smooth and recovery is just a release of back pressure in that setup.

* In the multiengine at this altitude we do have the problem that stall may be above Vmc in certain conditions so we have to watch out for the setup in power on conditions or for any yaw in power off conditions -- at the first sign of buffet, directional control loss, or stall horn, we HAVE to recover it for safety -- but that's a different topic altogether from where the person with the fear of stalls in a single is at in training.

You can take the single all the way past the buffet to a real break and just keep it wings level with rudder and demo just how benign a stall can be for someone worried about it, and save the slightly more abrupt power on stuff (and need for "more right rudder! The minute by minute mantra of every instructor... LOL!) for the next flight or later in the "intro to stalls" flight, well after the timid person has seen a few stalls and realizes their mental image of what a "stall" is, doesn't match the relatively gentle reality.

Media coverage of crashes, other more experienced pilots, all sorts of folks inadvertently make the word "stall" sound scary. It doesn't have to be at all. Introducing them like they're some sort of roller coaster ride to someone timid/scared of them, just shows a lack of finesse and respect for the student, and lack of thoughtfulness on the part of the instructor.

That said, if the OP hasn't told their instructor that they're nervous about it, the instructor can't guess that. Make sure you're sharing this fear with them. They're not going to be able to read your mind.

 

[Volitation]

I'm a a hair over 20 hours, and we've spent quite a bit of time the last couple of lessons working on power out descents to a suitable field, key points, etc., then actual landings at the home field. Two things have really stood out- when set up for best glide, the plane DOES seem happy! Second, it was eye opening to me, with any altitude at all, once the glide is set up how much time there really is to locate a field, work the memory items, decide how to get where I have to be, etc.

For me, it's actually reassuring learning that the thing isn't about to fall out of the sky!

 

[GRG55]

An airplane needs three things to fly: Airspeed, airspeed, and airspeed.

...

And all this time I was under the misunderstanding it was: Money, money and more money. See what you miss when you don't pay attention during ground school...

 

[mscard88]

As far as intro to stalls goes, INTRO to stalls need not be violent or abrupt in any way at all, and introducing them roughly to a timid or frightened student who's afraid of the WORD "stall" but who's never SEEN one, is a good way to make them more scared instead of less scared. All you have to do is set up an idle power glide and then pitch to attempt to hold altitude.* It'll happen all nice and smooth and recovery is just a release of back pressure in that setup..

Exactly how I always introduce a stall to my students Nate. As a student and even PP I hated stalls. So once I got my CFI I related my hates/fears to my student's and tried to come up with ways to ease their (students) apprehension about maneuvers, techniques, whatever it was.

 

[iamtheari]

And all this time I was under the misunderstanding it was: Money, money and more money. See what you miss when you don't pay attention during ground school...

Money is just airspeed squared.

 

[denverpilot]

Exactly how I always introduce a stall to my students Nate. As a student and even PP I hated stalls. So once I got my CFI I related my hates/fears to my student's and tried to come up with ways to ease their (students) apprehension about maneuvers, techniques, whatever it was.

I can't take any credit. It's direct from Kerschner's book. I just think it makes sense not to scare the bejeebus out of new aviators.

Seriously though, they'll scare themselves (and the instructors - like Rod Machado says, they train us to sweat only on one side of our faces) plenty, without forcing the issue.

Many people have horrible ideas about "stalls" and "spins" and other scary words before they begin flight training, that adding to their discomfort and feeling out of control, isn't the brightest idea -- if one wants their confidence and skill to go up, instead of down. Scared people don't learn things very well, if at all. They're busy being scared.

@jesse says the interesting part is figuring out just how far you can let them go when they're scaring the instructor -- so they can see the results -- without letting them go so far as to get you both in trouble.

I haven't had the "joy" of that, yet. LOL.

 

[mscard88]

I can't take any credit. It's direct from Kerschner's book.

Might be where I got it from. I was big on Kerschner books BVTOE (before video took over everything).

 

[Escandalo]

Yesterday was my second official flight lesson.

I did my first take off, wasn't pretty or coordinated, but got straightened out fairly quickly. Headed out to the practice area and did some turns and such. Then before we were heading back my instructor pulled the throttle to idle to simulate loss of power.

Got pretty nervous, but he was calm as can be the whole time. Talked through our procedures, pitched for desired airspeed, determined a landing spot, etc. Maneuvered to line up for the road we chose (after some discussion on him explaining why this one would be better than the one I chose initially). We kept descending as if to land, then once he felt like we were sure we could make it, put power back in and we climbed out of there.

Whole time I couldn't believe how well the plane can handle without power. Really demonstrates that planes don't just fall from the sky I guess.

After this, we headed back and did one touch and go then a landing. I took the second landing (my first also). Again, not pretty, but no parts left on the runway and the plane was in good shape when we parked it

Hi, I realize this thread is old and this is a bit off-topic, but I'm seriously considering relocating to ABQ for flight training, and I was wondering if you had any insight into Del Sol vs. Bode? I saw you wrote Bode was a bit difficult to get in to, and not super friendly, but obviously this was 6+ years ago. Anyway, any insight is appreciated. I'm looking to go "zero to hero" and ABQ seems like a great place to do it. Thanks for any insight!

 

[Dana]

Hi, I realize this thread is old and this is a bit off-topic, but I'm seriously considering relocating to ABQ for flight training, and I was wondering if you had any insight into Del Sol vs. Bode? I saw you wrote Bode was a bit difficult to get in to, and not super friendly, but obviously this was 6+ years ago. Anyway, any insight is appreciated. I'm looking to go "zero to hero" and ABQ seems like a great place to do it. Thanks for any insight!

I suggest you start a new thread with a descriptive title instead of piggybacking on a seven year old thread.

 

[Dudley Henriques]

Sorry, but incorrect again. Even if you are perfectly coordinated, do nothing abruptly, and have lots of speed (e.g. on that infamous base-to-final turn) you may still stall if you bank too steeply and hold pitch. Why? Because you exceeded the maximum angle of attack. So instead of focusing on speed, think "angle of attack". You won't stall if you keep it below the stalling angle, under any flight condition.

Angle of attack is really the only TRUE reference for stall. All the others are variables such as airspeed.
Actually the airplane is the best indicator for stall. For this reason I never soloed a student without first having them fly the airplane with the ASI covered. Teaching the student to "Feel" the aircraft is unfortunately neglected way too much by many instructors. The aircraft is the best stall indicator you will ever have.
Many instructors place WAY too much emphasis on the 1g GW stall condition. The markings on the ASI are not good indicators of actual stall speed anyway as a flight progresses and fuel is burned, GW changes as does stall speed. But teaching that stall can occur at any airspeed but always at the critical angle of attack has saved many lives. And teaching pilots to "listen" to their aircraft is an important part of that learning process.
Dudley Henriques

 

[bflynn]

I suggest you start a new thread with a descriptive title instead of piggybacking on a seven year old thread.

I dunno, there's been older.

Hey @abqtj, what are you up to these days?

 

[Dudley Henriques]

so how do you actually measure the AOA? I am not up for stall training yet, but from what I read, at certain weight and airspeed too much bank or pitch will let you cross the Critical AOA. do you just guess it and the guess becomes more and more accurate as you fly? or is there a scientific way of measuring it (without an AOA indicator)

AOA indicators are fine but they should never be your final indicator for an approaching stall. Thinking about stall you are totally correct in referencing it to angle of attack. You can stall at any airspeed or in any attitude. You just need to exceed your critical angle of attack.
Then how is knowing when the critical angle of attack has been reached?
The AIRCRAFT will tell you. If you listen the aircraft will literally speak to you about stall and when you are getting close to where you should REALLY be paying attention.
The airplane is the best flight instructor you will ever have as a pilot. Given enough practice you should be able to cover the ASI and maneuver the airplane. Regardless of what you are doing with the airplane when you are approaching your critical angle of attack the plane will let you know. There will be signs.......possibly some buffet.....it could be slight or heavy......it depends on the wing and the rate at which you are approaching stall. Just listen........feel.....and you will know when it's time to unload the wing. Yes I said UNLOAD the wing. Stall recovery regardless of stall type,1g, accelerated, cross controlled, ALWAYS involves reducing the angle of attack.
A word of advice. There is NOTHING at all to be afraid of or nervous about when it comes to learning about stalls. It's unfortunate that much of our training about stalls centers on stall avoidance. Not that there is anything wrong with avoiding a stall. After all, that's the whole purpose. But a much better way to approach the subject of stall is to welcome your study and practice involved with learning about stalls. Once you feel comfortable with stall your senses will relax and you will become much more susceptible to being around stall. Stalls will simply become one more in-flight maneuver to be practiced and comfortable with while engaged in the learning process.
Once you reach that level of comfort you will never again be nervous around stalls.
Learn to fly with instructors who teach you to fly beyond the flight test requirements.


Dudley Henriques