Light Sport training questlon

Greg Bockelman

Greg Bockelman

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Greg Bockelman
61.89(c)(i) states:

(c) A student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate must comply with the provisions of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section and may not act as pilot in command—

(1) Of an aircraft other than a light-sport aircraft;
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It is clear that a person without a medical cannot solo a plane OTHER than a Light Sport. But a co-worker and I have a difference of opinion on whether a Sport Pilot student can solo a plane other than Light Sport if that person has a medical. My contention is that if that student pilot has a medical/student pilot certificate, that pilot can solo in a non Light Sport airplane (Cessna 150). My co-worker sites the bolded portion of the regulation quoted above and interprets it to mean that since that person is working toward a Sport Pilot certificate, he cannot solo in a Cessna 150 even if he has a medical.

I cannot believe that just because a person states he is working on a Sport Pilot Cert, he cannot solo in a Cessna 150 if he has a medical/student pilot certificate. But the above quoted regulation, if taken at face value, makes it pretty clear that a "A student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate must comply with the provisions of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section and may not act as pilot in command..."

How can I convince my co-worker that it is OK for a student pilot to solo a Cessna 150 if he has a medical even though he is ultimately working on the Sport Pilot cert?

Or am I all wet? (I don't think so.)
 
Why the medical if he wants to come to a full and complete stop at SP?

Does the medical say SP?

Since I comes down to intent, he/she/it could make a valid claim that they are after a PP but plan to take the SP ride as part of the process.
 
Maybe he can "work toward a PPL" and just stop after meeting sport pilot requirements? Assuming the medical/student pilot licence isn't limted to SP?
 
By "student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate" they MAY (again, MAY) mean someone with a student pilot certificate only as opposed to the student/medical certificate. Best bet is to call the FSDO.
 
TMetzinger said:
By "student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate" they MAY (again, MAY) mean someone with a student pilot certificate only as opposed to the student/medical certificate. Best bet is to call the FSDO.
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That's probably their only way of enforcing it. I mean, if we think about it, if the student were ramp checked, what wouldn't check out? He would say he's a student pilot going for a solo flight. All completely normal. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with the checkride he's ultimately planning to take. What if you wanted to switch partway through from private to SP?

Interestingly enough, when I went to the FSDO to get my student pilot certificate for my sport training, they typed out an additional limitation that said, "Sport Pilot Only." Clearly with that, I wouldn't be able to solo a 150. But I didn't have a medical either, so I would bet that it would be okay. But as said above...calling the FSDO is definitely the best bet.
 
jpower said:
Interestingly enough, when I went to the FSDO to get my student pilot certificate for my sport training, they typed out an additional limitation that said, "Sport Pilot Only." Clearly with that, I wouldn't be able to solo a 150. But I didn't have a medical either, so I would bet that it would be okay. But as said above...calling the FSDO is definitely the best bet.
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Wow, I wonder why they did that. And again, I am not sure the FSDO is the right place to start.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
ROTFLMAO. Are you KIDDING? If I haven't learned ANYTHING ELSE on these forums, I HAVE learned that an opinion of the FSDO isn't worth the paper it is written on.
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Actually (not kidding), isn't the usual problem that you can't find anyone with the authority to actually put it ON PAPER at most FSDOs nowadays?

The lawyers run their shop. They let 'em take over.
 
What are the differences in training requirements to endorse a student pilot for solo flight with aspirations of obtaining a sport pilot certificate? According to FAA guidance, the endorsement certifies that the instructor has given training in accordance with 61.87 which is identical to that given to a student pilot seeking a private certificate.

How does the FAA know that the student is ultimately going to obtain a sport pilot or a private pilot certificate since he/she holds a valid medical certificate? A student is a student.

A sport pilot student I would presume, would not hold a medical certificate (in most cases).
 
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HPNPilot1200 said:
What are the differences in training requirements to endorse a student pilot for solo flight with aspirations of obtaining a sport pilot certificate? According to FAA guidance, the endorsement certifies that the instructor has given training in accordance with 61.87 which is identical to that given to a student pilot seeking a private certificate.

How does the FAA know that the student is ultimately going to obtain a sport pilot or a private pilot certificate since he/she holds a valid medical certificate? A student is a student.

A sport pilot student I would presume, would not hold a medical certificate (in most cases).
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One aspect is that the hours logged & signed by a Sport Only Instructor are not applicable to the PP. But if the hours are logged and signed by a CFI, even if in an LSA, then those hours are applicable to the PP.
 
I agree with Tim -- if the person has a combined medical and student pilot certificate, and a CFI-ASE fills all the proper 61.87 squares and endorsements, there's no problem.

As for the differences, a Student Sport Pilot has to know the restrictions applicable to them in addition to the regular Student Pilot restrictions -- that affects the written test among other things. Also, as noted above, the required training and endorsements for a Student Pilot to fly something other than an LSA must be from a CFI-ASE, not just a CFI-SP.

Finally, I don't see much point in calling the FSDO -- the regs are pretty clear on what you as an instructor have to do to let someone solo either an LSA or a "regular" aircraft.
 
I'm probably making a huge mistake here by applying common sense to something controlled by the FAA, but:

If you have a medical certificate and a full CFI endorses your logbook for solo REGARDLESS of what your flying certification goal might be, WHY would it be illegal to solo?
 
MBDiagMan said:
I'm probably making a huge mistake here by applying common sense to something controlled by the FAA, but:

If you have a medical certificate and a full CFI endorses your logbook for solo REGARDLESS of what your flying certification goal might be, WHY would it be illegal to solo?
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That was the point I was trying to make earlier. It doesn't matter what certificate you're seeking as long as the instructor signing you off has CFI-A privileges.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
That was the point I was trying to make earlier. It doesn't matter what certificate you're seeking as long as the instructor signing you off has CFI-A privileges.
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That is my point, too. But, playing Devil's Advocate, how do you respond to someone who insists that if a person is training for Light Sport, that person MUST comply with the Light Sport rules, as quoted in my Original Post? Even if they have a valid medical?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That is my point, too. But, playing Devil's Advocate, how do you respond to someone who insists that if a person is training for Light Sport, that person MUST comply with the Light Sport rules, as quoted in my Original Post? Even if they have a valid medical?
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Show me where in Subpart C Student Pilots of Part 61 how the trainee's original intent trumps the training given in accordance with Subpart C, i.e., where it says that someone who did some training for Sport Pilot is thereafter ineligible to solo a non-LSA aircraft. And where it says on their certificate "Student Sport Pilot" as opposed to just "Student Pilot."
 
Ron Levy said:
Show me where in Subpart C Student Pilots of Part 61 how the trainee's original intent trumps the training given in accordance with Subpart C, i.e., where it says that someone who did some training for Sport Pilot is thereafter ineligible to solo a non-LSA aircraft. And where it says on their certificate "Student Sport Pilot" as opposed to just "Student Pilot."
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Thanks, Ron.
 
And for some more devil's advocate...

Ron Levy said:
And where it says on their certificate "Student Sport Pilot" as opposed to just "Student Pilot."
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Mine did. They typed it on. When I went into the FSDO to get my student pilot certificate (because I didn't go through a medical examiner) I had to check the box for "Sport" on the application / info form and they put the limitation on my student certificate.

But I still think that as long as that box wasn't checked on the info form and there was no limitation like mine (which is almost certain because it went through an AME), there's no reason I can see that a student couldn't solo something other than a light sport.
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't find anything in 61.313 that says solo training toward a SP/Airplane Certificate has to be done in a Light Sport Aircraft. If the student has a medical and is signed off by CFI-A to solo a C150, he could still intend to obtain SP, right?
 
PW_Plack said:
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't find anything in 61.313 that says solo training toward a SP/Airplane Certificate has to be done in a Light Sport Aircraft. If the student has a medical and is signed off by CFI-A to solo a C150, he could still intend to obtain SP, right?
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The answer to that is a bit complicated. First, their pre-solo and solo XC training and endorsements would have to come from a CFI-A rather than a CFI-SP. Second, as soon as the applicant was issued the Sport Pilot certificate, s/he would no longer be legal to fly that C-150 unless the instructor involved also entered a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement to solo that C-150.
 
Can't find anywhere in part 61 does it talk about "intent".
If the student meets the requirements and the CFI giving the endorsement can legally do so. They can solo in what ever plane they are endorsed for.

Just my .02
 
jpower said:
And for some more devil's advocate...



Mine did. They typed it on. When I went into the FSDO to get my student pilot certificate (because I didn't go through a medical examiner) I had to check the box for "Sport" on the application / info form and they put the limitation on my student certificate.

But I still think that as long as that box wasn't checked on the info form and there was no limitation like mine (which is almost certain because it went through an AME), there's no reason I can see that a student couldn't solo something other than a light sport.
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Yes, and you got a DIFFERENT student pilot certificate than the hypothetical student in this thread.
 
TMetzinger said:
Yes, and you got a DIFFERENT student pilot certificate than the hypothetical student in this thread.
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Yes yes I understand. I was just responding to what someone had said previously that the student certificate is always identical. Hence my playing "devil's advocate" :)
 
I concur with the folks who've said it's a non-issue. If your student has a regular student pilot certificate (no LSA restriction, didn't even know that existed) and an FAA medical, I see absolutely no reason why you couldn't sign him or her off to solo in a non-LSA aircraft assuming all the requirements of 61.87 are satisfied. There isn't even any regulation that requires you to decide what certificate you'll ultimately apply for before you solo.
 
Really glad this post is here, as my wife is interested in a Sport Pilot certificate. Our preferred instructor is a private individual who owns a 150.
 
matthammer said:
If your student has a regular student pilot certificate (no LSA restriction, didn't even know that existed)...
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There is nothing I can find in the regulations or FAA Order 8900.1 which either requires or authorizes a "LSA restriction" to be placed on a Student Pilot certificate.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
61.89(c)(i) states:



It is clear that a person without a medical cannot solo a plane OTHER than a Light Sport. But a co-worker and I have a difference of opinion on whether a Sport Pilot student can solo a plane other than Light Sport if that person has a medical. My contention is that if that student pilot has a medical/student pilot certificate, that pilot can solo in a non Light Sport airplane (Cessna 150). My co-worker sites the bolded portion of the regulation quoted above and interprets it to mean that since that person is working toward a Sport Pilot certificate, he cannot solo in a Cessna 150 even if he has a medical.

I cannot believe that just because a person states he is working on a Sport Pilot Cert, he cannot solo in a Cessna 150 if he has a medical/student pilot certificate. But the above quoted regulation, if taken at face value, makes it pretty clear that a "A student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate must comply with the provisions of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section and may not act as pilot in command..."

How can I convince my co-worker that it is OK for a student pilot to solo a Cessna 150 if he has a medical even though he is ultimately working on the Sport Pilot cert?

Or am I all wet? (I don't think so.)
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I'm with you, as long as they have the Student Pilot cert & 3rd class or higher medical signed on it, they are good in whatever. You are always good for the highest rating you hold and have a current medical for. If you have a CP and no medical(expired), you're still good for SP; pick up the medical and your good as CP again. As long as the medical is valid he's good to go in any aircraft a Student with a medical can fly.
 
Henning said:
I'm with you, as long as they have the Student Pilot cert & 3rd class or higher medical signed on it, they are good in whatever.
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With Student Pilots, that's not entirely true. A Student Pilot signed off for solo in a C-150 can get a quick checkout in an LSA airplane and, with the instructor's signature on the certificate for make/model and the 90-day type check endorsement in the logbook, go solo. For a Student Pilot training for Sport Pilot with a CFI-SP in an LSA, soloing a C-150 would require filling all the pre-solo training squares again with a CFI-ASE.
 
Ron Levy said:
With Student Pilots, that's not entirely true. A Student Pilot signed off for solo in a C-150 can get a quick checkout in an LSA airplane and, with the instructor's signature on the certificate for make/model and the 90-day type check endorsement in the logbook, go solo. For a Student Pilot training for Sport Pilot with a CFI-SP in an LSA, soloing a C-150 would require filling all the pre-solo training squares again with a CFI-ASE.
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Requisite training and authority for the operation is a given. The question was are you allowed to train and solo them in a 152 if they are working on an SP, and the answer is yes so long as they have a valid medical with the STudent Pilot cert.
 
Concur with Henning. And Ron is also correct that for whatever aircraft we're talking about, the proper training and endorsements need be present.
 
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Ron Levy said:
There is nothing I can find in the regulations or FAA Order 8900.1 which either requires or authorizes a "LSA restriction" to be placed on a Student Pilot certificate.
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I had never seen or heard of such a thing till I read this thread. Yet, apparently, that's exactly what jpower's FSDO issued to him. I'd be curious to know whether the FAA would actually consider that limitation binding, were jpower to also obtain a valid medical -- or if it was just a case of a FSDO out stepping its own legal boundaries.
 
For what it is worth, I looked at a copy of one of our student's Student Pilot cert, and it made no mention of Sport Pilot. In fact, if they all use the same form, one would have to go way out of the way to put Sport Pilot Only on one.
 
matthammer said:
I had never seen or heard of such a thing till I read this thread. Yet, apparently, that's exactly what jpower's FSDO issued to him. I'd be curious to know whether the FAA would actually consider that limitation binding, were jpower to also obtain a valid medical -- or if it was just a case of a FSDO out stepping its own legal boundaries.
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If the FSDO issued him a Student Pilot cert with no medical exam, that is an appropriate limitation for them to have place. Had an AME issued it after an exam following an 8500, that would be improper.
 
Henning said:
If the FSDO issued him a Student Pilot cert with no medical exam, that is an appropriate limitation for them to have place. Had an AME issued it after an exam following an 8500, that would be improper.
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I don't necessarily agree. A student pilot certificate without a valid medical isn't useful for anything other than pursuing a sport pilot certificate (speaking strictly to airplanes here). There's no need for the FSDO to type an LSA restriction onto it. Not unless the FAA requires it and we're just unaware of the specific regulation or guidance.
 
matthammer said:
I don't necessarily agree. A student pilot certificate without a valid medical isn't useful for anything other than pursuing a sport pilot certificate (speaking strictly to airplanes here). There's no need for the FSDO to type an LSA restriction onto it. Not unless the FAA requires it and we're just unaware of the specific regulation or guidance.
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If you don't type the restriction there is nothing to distinguish the limitation that there is no medical attached to it.
 
Henning said:
If you don't type the restriction there is nothing to distinguish the limitation that there is no medical attached to it.
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Why does that matter? What if the student decides he wants a private certificate instead of a sport pilot certificate mid-training? He needs a new student pilot certificate, too? That doesn't really make any sense. Especially considering the FAA already knows whether or not you have a medical.
 
Henning said:
There is a Student Pilot certificate that doesn't also serve as a medical? It was the same form for me.
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I've issued a few for glider pilots and balloon pilots.

From FAA Order 8900.2

Section 3. Issue a Student Pilot Certificate

38. General. There are two types of student pilot certificates. An AME issues an FAA Form
8420-2, “Medical Certificate _____ Class and Student Pilot Certificate” (Figure 7-18), to an
applicant who meets the requirements of part 61 subpart C, for a student pilot certificate. FAA
Form 8420-2 (Figure 7-18) serves as both a medical certificate and a student pilot certificate.
DPEs issue FAA Form 8710-2, “Student Pilot Certificate” (Figure 7-19), to qualified student
pilot applicants. FAA Form 8710-2 serves only as a student pilot certificate.
a. Applicants with Medical Certificates. An applicant may hold FAA Form 8500-9,
Medical Certificate _____ Class (white copy). This certificate does not impart student pilot
privileges. The applicant must obtain a student pilot certificate from an examiner or the FSDO in
order to exercise privileges as a student pilot.
b. Applicants Who Need Medical Certificates. For aircraft that require medical
certificates, the applicant must hold at least a valid third class medical.
c. Gliders and Balloons. An applicant who intends to pilot only balloons or gliders,
including self-launch gliders, need not have an airman medical certificate. The applicant is
issued FAA Form 8710-2.
d. Examiner Authorization. An examiner may issue a student pilot certificate to a
qualified applicant without regard to the category or class of aircraft the applicant intends to
pilot. Any examiner may issue an FAA Form 8710-2 (Figure 7-19) regardless of the category
and class of aircraft or grade of pilot certification authorized by the examiner’s COA. However,
if the student pilot has medical limitations that need to be shown on the medical portion of the
student pilot certificate then only a medical examiner or an FAA office may issue the student
pilot certificate.
39. Nonrenewable. Student pilot certificates are not renewable. Upon expiration of a student
pilot certificate, the airman may apply for a new student pilot certificate, using the same process
as for the original issuance.

 
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