Light Sport Aircraft

woodstock

woodstock

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Light Sport Aircraft - Icon

http://iconaircraft.com/light-sport-aircraft.html

Hi

A friend of mine sent me this link. I personally wouldn't buy the above for 139K, I'd get a decent Cessna for that price - but, any thoughts on the above? He has never expressed any interest in airplanes before this, so I don't know if he's serious.

I don't know much about the pilot rating - a sport pilot is limited in the distance they can travel from their home airport, right? For sure a sport pilot can't fly into the ADIZ, right?

Does this type of plane have similar restrictions on where and when it can be flown, or, would someone with a PPL be able to fly it pretty much anywhere?
 
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First, you can't buy any new Cessna for $139K (other than the Flycatcher, which is an LSA), so the comparison of a new LSA with a used Cessna is apples:oranges. Some folks have the money and reasons to buy new; some folks can't afford new so they buy used.

Second, it's the Recreational, not LS, pilots who have XC limitations.

Third, I don't believe there are any restrictions on LS pilots in the DC ADIZ, but they must get a one-time endorsement for operating in Class B/C/D airspace.

Finally, someone with a PP and a valid medical certificate can fly a properly equipped and certified LS aircraft anywhere they can fly an equally equipped and certified Standard category aircraft. That includes night and IFR operations. Absent the medical certificate, someone with a PP must obey all the LS pilot restrictions.
 
I didn't say NEW Cessna - I said "decent Cessna". ;) I'd prefer a good used one over an LSA, anyway.

Thanks for the clarification - I wasn't sure what the term was, I thought it was "sport pilot". And it does sound like the recreational pilot does have limitations on distance. I think my friend wanted to do this cheaply - get a recreational pilot rating and just fly this thing anywhere he wanted.

Since my Q was more about the sport pilot (recreational pilot) - when you say one time endorsement - do you mean it's only good for one time? Or they only need to get it once and then you are good to go for X period of time? He would like to "fly this into IAD whenever he has a meeting". I told him he should get his PPL, not bother with the sport (recreational) pilot rating and then go from there.
 
Sport pilot != recreational pilot.

There is a sport pilot certificate that can be obtained. It entitles the holder to fly light sport airplanes (and only light sport airplanes) in Day VFR conditions.
 
TMetzinger said:
Sport pilot != recreational pilot.

There is a sport pilot certificate that can be obtained. It entitles the holder to fly light sport airplanes (and only light sport airplanes) in Day VFR conditions.
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Thanks Tim, that was what my friend was thinking about - I told him to go for the whole enchilada.
 
Your friend can start as a sport pilot and then continue to get his private cert. Depending on where he lives, there's a good sport school at Bay Bridge. There are also a few at JYO.
 
woodstock said:
I didn't say NEW Cessna - I said "decent Cessna". ;) I'd prefer a good used one over an LSA, anyway.
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I still think that used vs. new is an inappropriate comparison.
Thanks for the clarification - I wasn't sure what the term was, I thought it was "sport pilot". And it does sound like the recreational pilot does have limitations on distance. I think my friend wanted to do this cheaply - get a recreational pilot rating and just fly this thing anywhere he wanted.
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Sport Pilot and Recreational Pilot are different certificates. Sport Pilot is what we've been discussing, other than the XC distance limit which applies to RP's. SP's have no distance limit.

Since my Q was more about the sport pilot (recreational pilot) - when you say one time endorsement - do you mean it's only good for one time? Or they only need to get it once and then you are good to go for X period of time? He would like to "fly this into IAD whenever he has a meeting". I told him he should get his PPL, not bother with the sport (recreational) pilot rating and then go from there.
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The "one-time" endorsement for Sport Pilots to go in B/C/D means they get it once and it's good forever. It also covers all three types of airspace, so the instructor signing it should cover all three in the training leading to the endorsement.

Finally, if he wants to "fly this into IAD whenever he has a meeting," he's eventually going to want a PP with an IR, and if he lives much farther than JYO, probably a faster plane than LSA rules allow. But the Sport Pilot certificate is a good start.
 
Re: Light Sport Aircraft - Icon

woodstock said:
http://iconaircraft.com/light-sport-aircraft.html

Hi

A friend of mine sent me this link. I personally wouldn't buy the above for 139K, I'd get a decent Cessna for that price - but, any thoughts on the above? He has never expressed any interest in airplanes before this, so I don't know if he's serious.

I don't know much about the pilot rating - a sport pilot is limited in the distance they can travel from their home airport, right? For sure a sport pilot can't fly into the ADIZ, right?

Does this type of plane have similar restrictions on where and when it can be flown, or, would someone with a PPL be able to fly it pretty much anywhere?
Click to expand...

I don't believe there are restrictions as to distance or airspace other than endorsements for B,C&D, and of course, the prohibition on A which requires an IFR flight plan. Please note, the aircraft your friend is interested in is not available yet, and there is no firm word on delivery. I checked out their plane and operation at Osh, and boy it wreaked of all the same marketing stench as Eclipse.
 
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To me, the primary advantage of Light Sport aircraft is that it's the cheapest way to get into a new aircraft that is still actually pretty neat, reference Jay's Zodiac. It's also how you can get into (or keep) flying without a medical. I'm with you, Elizabeth, I'd buy the used plane for that price, but I also have no problems getting a medical, and the light sport planes don't really fit my mission very well. Jay is proof that someone with the sport pilot's license is still plenty capable of traveling far distances and making great use of the plane.

However, it sounds to me like your friend is more being cheap/lazy and not wanting to go through the whole thing. Tell him to go for it and just get his private, but explain that if he wants to have any reasonable assurance that he'll make it to his meetings in IAD he'll also need his instrument rating, and in the winters he'll need something with deice. I get the feeling that he wants an easy solution to learning how to fly, which as we all know there really isn't, especially if you actually want to use your pilot's license for things like making it to meetings.
 
Everyone's already covered what I could add...

There's no particular reason, though, that your friend couldn't get the sport ticket and then go on to the private and instrument rating from there. The main restrictions on a sport pilot as opposed to a private are the restriction to LSA - one look at my Zodiac will show that that doesn't mean the aircraft can't be very capable, though I wouldn't put the ICON A5 into that category - the restriction to day VFR, and the restriction to 10,000 MSL maximum altitude (though that one's proposed to be loosened slightly).

The training syllabi are even the same; the sport pilot doesn't need instrument or night training, but that's the only real difference (and the first is proposed to go away as well).
 
One of the BIG draws for the Sport Pilot certificate is that a medical certifiate is NOT required, a valid driver's license is all you need. So for potential pilots who have concerns about passing an FAA medical, the Sport certificate is a way to be able to fly without having to deal with the medical.
 
jmaynard said:
Everyone's already covered what I could add...

There's no particular reason, though, that your friend couldn't get the sport ticket and then go on to the private and instrument rating from there. The main restrictions on a sport pilot as opposed to a private are the restriction to LSA - one look at my Zodiac will show that that doesn't mean the aircraft can't be very capable, though I wouldn't put the ICON A5 into that category - the restriction to day VFR, and the restriction to 10,000 MSL maximum altitude (though that one's proposed to be loosened slightly).

The training syllabi are even the same; the sport pilot doesn't need instrument or night training, but that's the only real difference (and the first is proposed to go away as well).
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It restricted and isn't even available yet:arf::lol:
 
Re: Light Sport Aircraft - Icon

woodstock said:
http://iconaircraft.com/light-sport-aircraft.html

Hi

A friend of mine sent me this link. I personally wouldn't buy the above for 139K, I'd get a decent Cessna for that price - but, any thoughts on the above? He has never expressed any interest in airplanes before this, so I don't know if he's serious.

I don't know much about the pilot rating - a sport pilot is limited in the distance they can travel from their home airport, right? For sure a sport pilot can't fly into the ADIZ, right?

Does this type of plane have similar restrictions on where and when it can be flown, or, would someone with a PPL be able to fly it pretty much anywhere?
Click to expand...
They had one on display at the AOPA Convention last week. Speaking with the rep, I kept getting the feeling that the 139K is cast in aspic.
 
DGlaeser said:
One of the BIG draws for the Sport Pilot certificate is that a medical certifiate is NOT required, a valid driver's license is all you need. So for potential pilots who have concerns about passing an FAA medical, the Sport certificate is a way to be able to fly without having to deal with the medical.
Click to expand...

Although I'd say that, unless you wanted an LSA anyway, it would make sense to at least try to get the medical first. It's cheap enough (relative to the rest of flying) that it's worth a shot, especially if you get some advice from Dr. Bruce and the others on here who can help. Jay's plane is proof that an LSA can still be a very capable aircraft avionics wise and powered by a name brand engine (Jay's has a Continental O-200, and there are a few LSAs out there with Lycoming O-235s), rather than having to compromise on those items.

The biggest restrictions with an LSA for me are no night flight, no IFR, and the speed.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Jay's plane is proof that an LSA can still be a very capable aircraft avionics wise and powered by a name brand engine (Jay's has a Continental O-200, and there are a few LSAs out there with Lycoming O-235s), rather than having to compromise on those items.
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Ted, I'm not trying to disagree with you or start an engine war, but the Rotax 912 series is a very proven engine. In fact, there are more Rotax engines flying than Lycoming or Continential. Many go 3-4,000 TBO. I have about 450 hours flying Rotax engines. The Rotax 912's are exceptionally well engineered, light weight, and reliable aircraft engines for LSA aircraft, and burn car gas. Maybe you should take a second look.

Originally, Cessna was going to use the Rotax 912 for the Flycatcher, but rumor has it the engine suppliers put their foot down, and the service centers would have to be retrained on the Rotax. In any event, Rotax is by far the engine of choice for LSA.


JMHO.
 
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Geico266 said:
Ted, I'm not trying to disagree with you or start an engine war, but the Rotax 912 series is a very proven engine. In fact, there are more Rotax engines flying than Lycoming or Continential. Many go 3-4,000 TBO. I have about 450 hours flying Rotax engines. The Rotax 912's are exceptionally well engineered, light weight, and reliable aircraft engines for LSA aircraft, and burn car gas. Maybe you should take a second look.
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For a number of people, a Rotax, Jabiru, VW, whatever is acceptable. For others, it's not. I happen to fall into the latter category, and that is more my point.

I am not starting an argument, I'm stating that I just don't want one of those engines in my plane, and I wouldn't buy a plane that had one or build a plane to fit one, I'd stick to a Lycoming or Continental. That doesn't mean I don't point out existence of those planes as options to others for whom that is a non-conern. I'm more pointing out that for those who want to have an engine from one of the name manufacturers out there, you can still get into the LSA market and have one of those engines.

Originally, Cessna was going to use the Rotax 912 for the Flycatcher, but rumor has it the engine suppliers put their foot down, and the service centers would have to be retrained on the Rotax. In any event, Rotax is by far the engine of choice for LSA.

JMHO.
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Perhaps by popularity, but whether it's the engine to choose depends on the person putting out the money, and that varies widely. Clearly, we have different opinions, and that's fine, since I'm not specing you an airplane nor vice versa. I was not starting an argument, just making my point.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
The biggest restrictions with an LSA for me are no night flight, no IFR, and the speed.
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Um- there are LSA's approved for night and IFR. The limitation on night flight is typically the limitation on the sport pilot certificate, not the airplane.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The biggest restrictions with an LSA for me are no night flight, no IFR, and the speed.
Click to expand...

The speed is set, but aren't night flight and IFR strictly Sport Pilot limitations, assuming the A/C is properly equipped? That is, a properly-equipped LSA (and they are available) can fly night/IFR if you are PPL or better.
 
TMetzinger said:
Um- there are LSA's approved for night and IFR. The limitation on night flight is typically the limitation on the sport pilot certificate, not the airplane.
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Sorry, I meant on the sport pilot certificate, not the plane itself. Thanks for pointing that out. :)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Although I'd say that, unless you wanted an LSA anyway, it would make sense to at least try to get the medical first. It's cheap enough (relative to the rest of flying) that it's worth a shot, especially if you get some advice from Dr. Bruce and the others on here who can help. Jay's plane is proof that an LSA can still be a very capable aircraft avionics wise and powered by a name brand engine (Jay's has a Continental O-200, and there are a few LSAs out there with Lycoming O-235s), rather than having to compromise on those items.

The biggest restrictions with an LSA for me are no night flight, no IFR, and the speed.
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Actually, if you try to get a medical and are denied you are no longer allowed to self certify for sport pilot. The act of going for their medical may be enough to keep some of these guys from certifying themselves.

woodstock said:
I didn't say NEW Cessna - I said "decent Cessna". ;) I'd prefer a good used one over an LSA, anyway.

Thanks for the clarification - I wasn't sure what the term was, I thought it was "sport pilot". And it does sound like the recreational pilot does have limitations on distance. I think my friend wanted to do this cheaply - get a recreational pilot rating and just fly this thing anywhere he wanted.

Since my Q was more about the sport pilot (recreational pilot) - when you say one time endorsement - do you mean it's only good for one time? Or they only need to get it once and then you are good to go for X period of time? He would like to "fly this into IAD whenever he has a meeting". I told him he should get his PPL, not bother with the sport (recreational) pilot rating and then go from there.
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Back in the day, I would have never recommended to anybody that they go out and get a recreational pilot certificate. I don't feel that way about the sport pilot certificate. It is a rating that allows many of the same freedoms that the PP carries and is plenty capable for a large subset of pilots. The ability to carry one passenger...during the day...as far as their 120 knot craft will take them is plenty for a lot of people. I say if that fills their needs there is no need to recommend they go for the PP. That's no different than telling somebody that is buying a 152 that they might as well go for the 172 when the 152 will fit their mission profile just fine. You can step up at any time...why make the wall even harder for them to climb if it's not necessary for what they want to do?
 
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I believe Icon is taking deposits. :)

If I were starting out today, I'd go the SP route. Get my cert, then go in for a medical EVALUATION(not a cert exam) for a third class. If I passed the EVALUATION, I'd then get my class III medical, and work toward a PP as time and $$ allowed. Next, IR and then comm.

Several certificated aircraft qualify for the LSA rule. Some Ercoupe 415s, and the Taylorcraft BC12D come to mind. I could see getting a T-craft and a handheld radio with NAV capability to get the ASEL PP. Not as fancy as the Icon, fer-sher.
 
flyersfan31 said:
The speed is set, but aren't night flight and IFR strictly Sport Pilot limitations, assuming the A/C is properly equipped? That is, a properly-equipped LSA (and they are available) can fly night/IFR if you are PPL or better.
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In fact Jay's is IFR certified. And Ted realizes this, as he's flown in it, IIRC. He just misspoke.
 
DGlaeser said:
One of the BIG draws for the Sport Pilot certificate is that a medical certifiate is NOT required, a valid driver's license is all you need. So for potential pilots who have concerns about passing an FAA medical, the Sport certificate is a way to be able to fly without having to deal with the medical.
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It may be a way, but it's not guaranteed, because merely having a DL isn't enough if you have a medical condition which would prevent issuance of a medical certificate. See http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/sportpilots/ for more on that.
 
FlyNE said:
Actually, if you try to get a medical and are denied you are no longer allowed to self certify for sport pilot. The act of going for their medical may be enough to keep some of these guys from certifying themselves.
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Which is why, if you have a doubt, you obtain an appointment with an AME for a medical consultation, not an Aviation Medical Examination, and don't fill out any paperwork. That way, you can find out where you stand without risk of being denied. It'll cost you an extra fee, but it may be worth it if it avoids a denial.
 
Ron Levy said:
It may be a way, but it's not guaranteed, because merely having a DL isn't enough if you have a medical condition which would prevent issuance of a medical certificate. See http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/sportpilots/ for more on that.
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True, but to Ted's suggestion of "try[ing] to get the medical first", I can only agree with Jason in saying DON'T! Talk with an experienced AME like Dr. Bruce, go through test, etc., but don't start filling out the application until you are sure you'll be able to get the medical.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I was not starting an argument, just making my point.
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Point taken, and very well expressed.

If I remember right the gross weight advantage over a Lyc. or Connie is something 50 pounds less weight for the Rotax. In an LSA that is a ton! :wink2: (pun intended )

Personally, I fly with Lycoming now and enjoy them very much. :thumbsup: Clearly, someday, we will all be flying LSA, if we want to continue to fly. I certainly don't want to argue either, but when the time comes take a look at Rotax. They are impressive.
 
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Ron Levy said:
It may be a way, but it's not guaranteed, because merely having a DL isn't enough if you have a medical condition which would prevent issuance of a medical certificate. See http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/sportpilots/ for more on that.
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However, merely having a medical condition that would require a special issuance medical, such as diabetes, is not itself disqualifying for the use of a driver's license for sport pilot duties. That's a question that, according to the FAA, the pilot and his doctor should decide.
 
Geico266 said:
In fact, there are more Rotax engines flying than Lycoming or Continential.
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Sorry, but I'd have to see numbers. There are hundreds of thousands of Lycoming and Continental engines flying, and the last number I saw for Rotax was less than 100,000.

Originally, Cessna was going to use the Rotax 912 for the Flycatcher, but rumor has it the engine suppliers put their foot down, and the service centers would have to be retrained on the Rotax.
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It wasn't the engine suppliers. It was the FBOs and flight schools who would be expected to buy the majority of the aircraft. You know...customers.


In any event, Rotax is by far the engine of choice for LSA.
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If I thought that, I'd have bought one.

The main differences between the Rotax 912ULS and the Continental O-200A are 50 pounds and $8000. The price advantage goes away if you want an IFR-capable aircraft, because you then have to buy the certificated version of the 912, and it costs just about the same as the O-200. The Rotax also has much tighter tolerances and operates at much higher RPM, and a mechanic has to treat the Rotax differently. That's why they have to go to Rotax school. I'd have had to spend a few thousand bucks to send my A&P to Rotax school if I'd bought one.

I'll be interested to see how well the Lycoming IO-233-LSA does in the real world. It looks good.
 
jmaynard said:
However, merely having a medical condition that would require a special issuance medical, such as diabetes, is not itself disqualifying for the use of a driver's license for sport pilot duties. That's a question that, according to the FAA, the pilot and his doctor should decide.
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I think that's what I said -- or rather, what the Federal Air Surgeon said in the link I posted.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think that's what I said -- or rather, what the Federal Air Surgeon said in the link I posted.
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More or less, though there's enough room for doubt there that a clarification was appropriate - especially since there's enough doubt in the aviation community among those not familiar with the issue to begin with already.
 
FlyNE said:
Actually, if you try to get a medical and are denied you are no longer allowed to self certify for sport pilot. The act of going for their medical may be enough to keep some of these guys from certifying themselves.
Click to expand...

Which is a totally bogus reg and so typical of the cement brained thinking at FAA.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Which is a totally bogus reg and so typical of the cement brained thinking at FAA.
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I won't argue with that, but it doesn't matter. If you have any doubt about your ability to pass an aviation medical, get an aviation medical consultation, not an aviation medical examination, from your AME. This will allow you to identify any issues which might prevent you from passing without jeopardizing your options for Sport Pilot flying. If you do find any such issues, you and your AME can then come to a decision as discussed in the Federal Air Surgeon's guidance (see http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/sportpilots/ for that guidance) about whether it's safe (and therefore still legal) for you to fly as a Sport Pilot.
 
RogerT said:
I kind of like my Jab. It's butt simple ... dependable .. and cute.
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If Jabiru offered a version that wasn't restricted to day VFR, I'd have considered one. It's not nearly as out-of-the-aviation-mainstream as the Rotax, running at conventional-engine speeds, not needing a gearbox, and not having tolerances anywhere near as tight. Unfortunately, the day VFR restriction completely eliminated it (and the aircraft it powers) from my candidate list.
 
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This is kind of off-topic, but I have a question:

If a PP decides not to renew his/her medical and continues flying LSA's under the SP privileges, does that PP need to get a Class B/C/D endorsement before flying into airspace under SP rules?
 
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