Life jackets for overwater

Mike I

Mike I

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Mike I
In light of the recent Cherokee ditching in the Hudson, I'm wondering what the thoughts are toward carrying life jackets on board when out of gliding range of land (or a suitable place to land). Most of my flying is around the Northeast, and the water is pretty chilly here.

I've done a few hops out to Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard, and at times am out of gliding distance. I don't carry jackets on board, and I rent so making a large investment for the plane isn't appealing. I've had my eye on belt-type manual CO2 inflatable PFDs such as these: http://www.landfallnavigation.com/mustangmd3075.html . Surely they're better than nothing, but are there better options that aren't cumbersome? Vest-type jackets aren't appealing to wear all the time when over water...are they significantly better than belt packs?
 
So much depends upon the water temperature. At the very least, life jackets should make recovering the bodies easier. ;)

Seriously, if you're flying over cold water, out of gliding distance of land, you're playing for keeps. This type of stuff needs to be taken seriously. It's a good thing engines never quit. :rolleyes2:
 
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Mike I said:
In light of the recent Cherokee ditching in the Hudson, I'm wondering what the thoughts are toward carrying life jackets on board when out of gliding range of land (or a suitable place to land). Most of my flying is around the Northeast, and the water is pretty chilly here.

I've done a few hops out to Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard, and at times am out of gliding distance. I don't carry jackets on board, and I rent so making a large investment for the plane isn't appealing. I've had my eye on belt-type manual CO2 inflatable PFDs such as these: http://www.landfallnavigation.com/mustangmd3075.html . Surely they're better than nothing, but are there better options that aren't cumbersome? Vest-type jackets aren't appealing to wear all the time when over water...are they significantly better than belt packs?
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Unless I am mistaken, the belt type are still vests that fold/roll up into a belt pouch. The only downside of that over a mae west type vest that you wear all the time while flying is that you want to be familiar with how to take it out of the pouch and don it.....not the kind of thing you want to be fumbling through for the first time while you are actually in the water.

Other than that, I would say that the belt type is a good compromise for what you are looking for. The only other thing to watch out for is to make sure you do not get the auto-inflator type. You do not want the lifejackets self-inflating while still in the aircraft.
 
Dead Stick said:
So much depends upon the water temperature. At the very least, life jackets will make recovering the bodies easier. :rolleyes:
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True, but flying between the New England coast and Martha's Vineyard or Nantucket is not a vast sea.....if you are in contact with ATC when the problem arises, you will most likely be fished out before hypothermia is a life threatening issue.
 
Fearless Tower said:
True, but flying between the New England coast and Martha's Vineyard or Nantucket is not a vast sea.....if you are in contact with ATC when the problem arises, you will most likely be fished out before hypothermia is a life threatening issue.
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That is true, but it is also true that the water temperature off of Martha's Vineyard right now is 34F. At that temperature, unless you're wearing survival gear, you've got roughly 15 minutes to exhaustion and death can come as quickly as 30 minutes. Now, throw on top of that an injury or two from the ditching and you can see why it really is serious. I wasn't kidding when I said it was a good thing engines don't quit on us very often. All too often, we place ourselves in some very foolish positions. If you're doing that type of flying, a ditching course is money well spent. It tends to open your eyes.
 
I can't understand for the life of me why so many pilots continue to fly over water without life jackets. Heck, Even if you go pick up a few of the traditional Orange cheapo PFD (Personal flotation devices), it's better then nothing. There less then $10 at West Marine stores....

I bought two vest inflating type at SNF about 6 years ago. Decent brand, not that expensive. I change the C02 cylinder every few years as recommended. Equipped them with Storm safety whistles, Cylume sticks and signal mirrors. Hope I never need but at least I have them.....
 
With regard to survival times, below is an image showing likely survival times (hot-linked from a link in the article "Ditching Myths Torpedoed"
http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm worth a read if you haven't already seen it.)

hypothermia-lg.gif


I have two ComfortMax inflatable vests from Aviation Survival Technologies (http://www.astoverwater.com/page/page/5281094.htm) but since I've never had to use them, I can't give a proper review of them. The vests I bought claim they aren't intended for blue water ocean conditions, though. The proprietor of that company does have some opinions and info on vests elsewhere on his site that I think is worth some consideration.
 
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Dead Stick said:
That is true, but it is also true that the water temperature off of Martha's Vineyard right now is 34F. At that temperature, unless you're wearing survival gear, you've got roughly 15 minutes to exhaustion and death can come as quickly as 30 minutes. Now, throw on top of that an injury or two from the ditching and you can see why it really is serious. I wasn't kidding when I said it was a good thing engines don't quit on us very often. All too often, we place ourselves in some very foolish positions. If you're doing that type of flying, a ditching course is money well spent. It tends to open your eyes.
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:yeahthat:

It never ceased to amaze me how often we would encounter a vessel tricked out with fancy survival gear only to discover the owners hadn't a clue how to operate it. Buying survival gear is great. Taking the time to learn its capabilities and how to operate it, and actively drilling in its use will save your life.
 
Perhaps I shouldn't be posting here as I'm not qualified in any capacity on any civillian type atm, but with the RAF, every time we flew, we flew with 'chutes and, if traversing water (even Loch Lomond) we'd wear our life preservers. Granted, these are great big bulky ancient things however, should I become successful in a career in GA I'd make sure I'd always wear a 'chute (skydive trained) and buoyancy aid wherever appropriate/allowed.
 
Dead Stick said:
That is true, but it is also true that the water temperature off of Martha's Vineyard right now is 34F. At that temperature, unless you're wearing survival gear, you've got roughly 15 minutes to exhaustion and death can come as quickly as 30 minutes. Now, throw on top of that an injury or two from the ditching and you can see why it really is serious. I wasn't kidding when I said it was a good thing engines don't quit on us very often. All too often, we place ourselves in some very foolish positions. If you're doing that type of flying, a ditching course is money well spent. It tends to open your eyes.
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Yup, dead stick is spot on! You'll survive the ditching only to die in the frigid water. I keep a "Ditch" bag (that floats) and has a 75' streamer, rocket flares and Personal ELT. Yes, I will don a PFD prior to ditching but also realize that if I can't stay out of the water, this time of the year in the Northeast, I am dead due to Hypothermia. My best chance is that the Coast Guard can launch and find the P-ELT coordinates. If I have any strength I will deploy flares and streamer. That's my only hope...

There is an interesting picture that shows a person in the water. You simply can't see them! Add in a streamer or dye marker and the odds of being found change considerably. YMMV

Survival Systems in New London, CT offers numerous courses on ditching. Here is the link....
http://www.survivalsystemsinc.com/index.php

Finally, Doug Ritter offers numerous courses on ditching. Pretty interesting stuff! He is usually at AOPA. Here is his link:
http://www.equipped.org/
http://dougritter.com
 
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aviatingfool said:
This one:
http://www.landfallnavigation.com/sospenders.html
is pretty popular among sailors. I wear mine over Puget Sound. It's still important they get you out of the water really fast, as you know, so flight following over cold water is pretty crucial.
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The SOSpenders are very nice, but make sure you do not get one of the ones that say "[FONT=arial, helvetica]Automatic Inflatable."[/FONT] We purchased a couple of the manually inflatable ones and wear them when flying over water beyond gliding distance. Note I said "wear them." Any vest or belt will take too long to put on during an emergency, especially because you need to undo your seatbelt to put them on. Sure wouldn't want your seatbelt to be under the life vest!
 
If you want a real eye-opener, take an open water ditching course and watch all of those 50 and 60 somethings even try to climb into a life raft. It's not pretty. If you also happen to have a broken arm or leg, the outcome is going to be very doubtful. I don't doubt the statistics that Jim linked to in that article, but even the best case scenario has about the same odds as playing Russian Roulette and that's nothing that I'd want to be doing either. Simply throwing a life jacket behind the seat "in the unlikely event of a water landing" might make you feel better, but it's going to provide precious little to change the outcome if you're forced to ditch on near freezing open ocean or even Lake Michigan. The guys who do this type of flying for a living take the training and have all of the proper gear. It always surprises me to see the amateurs jump into their Skyhawk with only a coat and maybe a life jacket and head out across open water. It is a good thing engines never quit.
 
I read quotes from the two who ditched in the Hudson...They said after 5 mins in the water they didnt have the strength to swim the 20 feet to the pier, after 15 mins the were semi conscience and almost comatose...water temp was around 28 to 30* with chunks of ice in the water.
 
I really like the Sospenders. I've tested them in the pool and in the surf, and they worked well.

But over cold water? Even a mustang survival suit is not pleasant. For water near freezing, I either want a short swim in a mustang suit, or I want the gumby suit, and a raft.

I wouldn't fly the hudson route in the winter down low in a single. But that's MY risk management decision, and others are free to feel differently, I won't criticize them for that.
 
Dead Stick said:
If you want a real eye-opener, take an open water ditching course and watch all of those 50 and 60 somethings even try to climb into a life raft. It's not pretty.
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I'll tell ya what....I remember trying to climb into a life raft during water survival training when I was still in my early 20s....that kicked my butt, and it was in a freakin' pool!
 
TMetzinger said:
No kidding. In a gumby suit it was nearly impossible.
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It does look hard - here's a video on youtube showing an exercise of people trying to get into a raft. I'm not sure, but it looks like the raft has some sort of strap underwater that helps serve as a sort of ladder step that makes it possible to raise yourself using your leg so you can get over the side easier. Something to look for in a life raft I suppose. Haven't shopped for any yet.

 
Yes, that one has a step which makes it easy. A step is a must have, but not all rafts have them. Now try doing that in frigid water with an injury and unless there's someone nearby to pluck you out of the water, about all that life jacket is going to do it make it easier to recover the body.
 
Dead Stick said:
Yes, that one has a step which makes it easy. A step is a must have, but not all rafts have them. Now try doing that in frigid water with an injury and unless there's someone nearby to pluck you out of the water, about all that life jacket is going to do it make it easier to recover the body.
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The step certainly helps, but even with the step, it can be a ***** to climb into the thing.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The step certainly helps, but even with the step, it can be a ***** to climb into the thing.
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I hate videos like that, because they make it look much easier than it really is. For all I know they could have all been course instructors. The only way to get a true feel for what you'd be up against is to actually take an open water ditching course. They tend to make people think about the routes they are flying in their SE airplanes. :D
 
Dead Stick said:
I hate videos like that, because they make it look much easier than it really is. For all I know they could have all been course instructors. The only way to get a true feel for what you'd be up against is to actually take an open water ditching course. They tend to make people think about the routes they are flying in their SE airplanes. :D
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Yes indeed, in flat calm it looks easy. Open ocean not so much. Rafts with boarding platforms and plenty of handholds ease the chore but it is difficult in any case. As one who has flown a few thousand hours over water in single engined helicopters engine failure is something that was always in the back of my mind. Glad I never had to use my training.
 
CT Arrow said:
Heck, Even if you go pick up a few of the traditional Orange cheapo PFD (Personal flotation devices), it's better then nothing. There less then $10 at West Marine stores....
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Bad juju there. If the airframe is sinking, do you want to be floating against the high point of the interior, unable to swim down to an opening?
 
dell30rb said:
Cold water is serious business
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I'll 2nd that thought.

I've been hospitalized with hypothermia. Going in 30F something water means you are just trying to stay afloat long enough to be saved. You aren't climbing in anything after 5-10 mins in the water. You aren't executing any sequence of lifesaving actions either. It's 5 mins of adrenaline followed by weak and stupid then more likely than not, death. The good news is that it is not a terrifying death. Cold is like a really good anesthesia if you like that sort of thing.

The woman and her passenger in the Hudson were both lucky and good.

I've risked it without flotation gear and with inaccessible flotation gear. Not really sure why but I know it's generally a life and death risk.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Bad juju there. If the airframe is sinking, do you want to be floating against the high point of the interior, unable to swim down to an opening?
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Who says your wearing it? It is also a myth that aircraft sink like a submarine on contact w/ the water. Review ditching cases and you will find the majority of occupants were able to egress the aircraft allowing them to survive. Finally, you have trained for this right?
 
Ken Ibold said:
Bad juju there. If the airframe is sinking, do you want to be floating against the high point of the interior, unable to swim down to an opening?
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I don't think anyone would suggest donning a Type I or II PFD while still in the aircraft. You would not be able to function very well to fly the airplane with the lifejacket on in the first place. They were just suggesting having them in the aircraft was better than nothing. A kapok type lifepreserver is not very difficult to don in the water....providing you have had a little training on technique. I wouldn't recommend that as the best solution, but I would agree, that it is 'better than nothing'.

The overall best solution is probably the non-auto inflating suspender style that a few have posted, worn while flying over water. As far as hypothermia concerns go, that is a risk management decision that the pilot must make. Most folks aren't likely to go flying around wearing dry-suits under their clothes like military and SAR pilots do and carrying Gumby suits is just not really feasible in light airplanes.
 
I've been considering the Sportys x-back crew vest

http://www.sportys.com/Pilotshop/product/17024

And adding the pockets. Essentially creating a civilian survival vest. Couple of pencil flares, PLB, boonie hat, signal mirror, strobe light, a couple of water packs, maybe a food bar.

This is assuming a 3-4hr wait in the waters of SoFla.
 
danpass said:
I've been considering the Sportys x-back crew vest

http://www.sportys.com/Pilotshop/product/17024

And adding the pockets. Essentially creating a civilian survival vest. Couple of pencil flares, PLB, boonie hat, signal mirror, strobe light, a couple of water packs, maybe a food bar.

This is assuming a 3-4hr wait in the waters of SoFla.
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Color it olive drab and you basically have a military aircrew vest.

You could even add a SEED if you so desired.
 
danpass said:
I've been considering the Sportys x-back crew vest

http://www.sportys.com/Pilotshop/product/17024

And adding the pockets. Essentially creating a civilian survival vest. Couple of pencil flares, PLB, boonie hat, signal mirror, strobe light, a couple of water packs, maybe a food bar.

This is assuming a 3-4hr wait in the waters of SoFla.
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nice product, but $400. :eek:
 
Badger said:
nice product, but $400. :eek:
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Yeah, no kidding. But, for someone who does a lot of overwater flying, it might be a worthwhile investment. I wouldn't recommend that for someone looking for water survival gear flying between the mainland and the Vineyard.
 
That's what I was thinking, someone who flies over water often, this is a good option. The infrequent user can get by with something less 'professional'
 
You guys are missing an obvious answer... The best life jacket for over water flight is a float/amphibious plane :D
 
I fly along the Gulf Coast mostly so am pretty much over water at some point every flight. Even if I'm heading north, I still either depart or come in over Lake Pontchatrain, so I've gotten in the habit of wearing a vest. Don't know about that $400 one, but I picked these up from Acadamy for around $75 each. They come armed to autoinflate, but are easily converted to manual. Thery're vey comfortable and you quickly forget you're even wearing them. Of course, this doesn't address the cold factor, but that's seldom a problem down here. On a recent trip to Bahamas, I did rent a raft from the FBO. There's a ditching course (I guess similar to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjX_8RQU8Hc) down here that I'd really like to take.
 

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Fearless Tower said:
I don't think anyone would suggest donning a Type I or II PFD while still in the aircraft. You would not be able to function very well to fly the airplane with the lifejacket on in the first place.
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I found the ones we wore which were full sized military life preservers were fine for mobility. Tad uncomfortable at times, but not as uncomfortable as not having one upon ditching.
Definitely agree with not having ones that auto inflate when in contact with water. Ideally the only auto function should be a transponder/beacon that automatically kicks in when it comes into contact with water - but then again I don't know to what capacity civvy life vests are made. I presume you can purchase ones similar to what I've described though.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
You guys are missing an obvious answer... The best life jacket for over water flight is a float/amphibious plane :D
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Maybe if you happened to be over a lake, harbor or other sheltered water, but an open ocean landing in any size float plane or amphibian that we'd be flying probably isn't going to turn out much different. As an example, remember that episode of Ice Pilots NWT(?) where they were flying those large Canadair amphibious water bomber to Turkey? Those guys wore the full survival suits for the crossing.
 
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