Level of progression decreasing

WBBulldogs

WBBulldogs

Filing Flight Plan
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Oct 1, 2011
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Colorado Springs
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NAAD
So I have about 10 hours in the plane (T41-C) and I feel like I've almost hit a plateau. I don't know if it's normal. I know basic maneuvers well besides S Turns and Turns around a point. My last lesson was horrible. I was loosing altitude like I've never done. At one point I lost over 200 feet which has never happened to me.

I am still kinda poor at landing. I've done over 20 landing with my instructor and I still am rough. My main question: Is all this normal? Should I slow down on how often I am flying. I really feel like I am getting burned out not because I'm bored of it but more of trying to interpret and getting an information overload is what's causing it.

So my main issue now are landings, Turns around a point and S Turns. I still can;t get them down!
 
WBBulldogs said:
So I have about 10 hours in the plane (T41-C) and I feel like I've almost hit a plateau. I don't know if it's normal. I know basic maneuvers well besides S Turns and Turns around a point. My last lesson was horrible. I was loosing altitude like I've never done. At one point I lost over 200 feet which has never happened to me.

I am still kinda poor at landing. I've done over 20 landing with my instructor and I still am rough. My main question: Is all this normal? Should I slow down on how often I am flying. I really feel like I am getting burned out not because I'm bored of it but more of trying to interpret and getting an information overload is what's causing it.

So my main issue now are landings, Turns around a point and S Turns. I still can;t get them down!
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At 10 hours I wouldn't be worrying about it. Everyone hits plateaus in their training. Just keep at it and bust through. 20 landings is nothing in the big scheme of things. My 38 hr. student preparing for his checkride had over 100 the other day, so you're right on track. It takes awhile to get it right. Don't give up.
 
Can you walk us through the issues you're having with the landings? If we know more someone might be familiar with it and suggest a solution. Don't let yourself get discouraged. No one said it would come easy, but when you get it you will feel really satisfied with yourself.
 
Well on the landings I usually fight the angle of descent. My instructor usually has to keep his hands in a position so I won't be able to pull back and lessen the descent. It feels to me like I'm coming in too steep but in reality he tells me I'm not. I also have an issue on remaining center line. I think I am getting better at aiming at the numbers but when I pull back on the yoke to lessen the descent angle because I think it's too steep I screw up the aimpoint.
 
WBBulldogs said:
So I have about 10 hours in the plane (T41-C) and I feel like I've almost hit a plateau. I don't know if it's normal. I know basic maneuvers well besides S Turns and Turns around a point. My last lesson was horrible. I was loosing altitude like I've never done. At one point I lost over 200 feet which has never happened to me.

I am still kinda poor at landing. I've done over 20 landing with my instructor and I still am rough. My main question: Is all this normal? Should I slow down on how often I am flying. I really feel like I am getting burned out not because I'm bored of it but more of trying to interpret and getting an information overload is what's causing it.

So my main issue now are landings, Turns around a point and S Turns. I still can;t get them down!
Click to expand...

Hang in there, it happens. At the stage of the game you're at, I wouldn't be worried at all.

If that keeps up, one thing that is never a bad idea is a lesson or two with a different CFI. Not saying anything bad about your CFI, but sometimes heading the same thing explained differently can be very helpful for the progress. I switched primary CFIs 4 times during my PPL, and flew with 3 others at least once for various out of state flights and a final stage check.
 
WBBulldogs said:
...I think I am getting better at aiming at the numbers but when I pull back on the yoke to lessen the descent angle because I think it's too steep I screw up the aimpoint.
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Well for one thing, pulling back on the yoke is going to increase your descent rate. To lessen it you need to add power. Use the yoke to keep the airspeed constant and use the power to maintain your descent so the numbers don't move from their position on the windscreen.
 
Try a phase check flight with some other CFI and see how you do.
 
WBBulldogs said:
Well on the landings I usually fight the angle of descent. My instructor usually has to keep his hands in a position so I won't be able to pull back and lessen the descent. It feels to me like I'm coming in too steep but in reality he tells me I'm not. I also have an issue on remaining center line. I think I am getting better at aiming at the numbers but when I pull back on the yoke to lessen the descent angle because I think it's too steep I screw up the aimpoint.
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Sounds like you need to look down the runway instead of at the nose.. this is what I used to do until I changed my sight picture.. looking down the runway and watching where you want to go helped me. I used to try and flare a bit to early by looking to close.

Aim for numbers during your approach but as soon as you're abeam the numbers, look down the runway and you will "Feel" the airplane better as you will be able to better judge everything from the ground effect to position on the center line and how much lift you still have to bleed off.
 
Totally normal, keep training, keep learning, keep motivated. Try another CFI, they may say something or show you something that will lead to the wonderful aha! Moment
 
Pitch for speed, power for altitude.
Other than that, keep on keeping on. I hit a couple plateau's in my training and even thought about hanging it up. Perserverence is a great tool.
 
Corpsmaide said:
Totally normal, keep training, keep learning, keep motivated. Try another CFI, they may say something or show you something that will lead to the wonderful aha! Moment
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My "aha" moment came with one of the many different CFIs I had. He noted the death grip I had on the yoke and my inability to make any progress.

On a stop and go, I was told to sit back and watch. He took his hands off the C150's yoke, taxied into position and flew the pattern all the way to the flare without touching the yoke. Just pitch trim, power and rudder. Voilà!

Within an hour or two I soloed and moved on. You will too.
 
Happens to everyone at some point. The fix differs with why you are plateauing (is that a real word?). Sometimes you need to dig in and focus on the petty details, sometimes you just need to relax and let go.
The outcome is always worth the effort and aggrevation.
 
it's a progression. I noticed my landings improved while going through my instrument training. I'm sure they'll continue to improve. Some guys on here are in their thousands of hours. Don't get bummed b/c things don't feel natural at 10. :thumbsup:
 
Everyone I personally know of has gotten stuck at a plateau. Maybe there are two plateau's - one just before solo and one just before checkride. Don't worry about it.
As for the centerline, look further down the runway and keep the line between your feet. That trick works great for taxiing too. Instead of trying to keep the nose on the centerline, keep your feet straddling it. The end result will be the nose on it or just inches to the right of it.
As for the Turns About a Point.....practice practice practice.
 
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The reason I suggest using your feet as a visual guIde rather than the nose (on the centerline) is, if you focus on keeping the nose on the line you're going to be looking at the nose rather than further down the runway, and you're likely to touch down ON the nosewheel.
When you're driving your car into a parking space, you look close in. But landing is not like that. Landing is more like, when you're half a mile in front of a toll booth plaza. You want to "aim" the car into the shortest lane so you are looking at that particular lane rather than as close in as you look when pulling into the parking space.
When rounding out and flaring, do not think of the touchdown spot as the end of the flight. Visualize touching down and then continuing to roll thru the imaginary toll booth way down the runway.
 
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WBBulldogs said:
So I have about 10 hours in the plane (T41-C) and I feel like I've almost hit a plateau. I don't know if it's normal. I know basic maneuvers well besides S Turns and Turns around a point. My last lesson was horrible. I was loosing altitude like I've never done. At one point I lost over 200 feet which has never happened to me.

I am still kinda poor at landing. I've done over 20 landing with my instructor and I still am rough. My main question: Is all this normal? Should I slow down on how often I am flying. I really feel like I am getting burned out not because I'm bored of it but more of trying to interpret and getting an information overload is what's causing it.

So my main issue now are landings, Turns around a point and S Turns. I still can;t get them down!
Click to expand...


believe it or not I had a similar situation and what helped me was logging 2 hrs or less in the Microsoft Flight sim game. I don't know if I had some fear blocking my brain or what but it went away as fast as it showed up. 200' loss trim and focus. you might be over responding. The sim helps.

I would not reduce training. Take a 2-3 day break yes but then hit it fast and hard. You will push through it. Just like weight training, dieting or any other brick wall. also look down the runway a bit, try and loosen up, all your issues seem to result from a bit of anxiety.

Disclosure I am not a cfi but I sometimes stay in a Holiday Inn.:)

So is that your airplane or are you flying with some organization? Cool all your time is HP. Is that a fixed prop?
 
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1. Take a small break from from actual flying.
2. Chair fly at home and work through the maneuvers mentally at least a couple of hours a day while you take your break.
3. Work on something non-maneuver related, like navigation.

The break will help your mind/body rest a bit and process all the training you've been experiencing. Chair flying and/or visualization is a proven method that everyone professional from fighter pilots to executives use to help them work out maneuvers and potential problems, flows, procedures, presentations, etc. Working on something non-maneuver related keeps you excited about training. From new experiences and novelty comes excitement.

I suggest this to all of my students if/when they plateau, and the ones who actually bother to do it always perform better when they come back. I suggest 1-2 weeks.

Of course, this may not help if you are in a fast-paced and structured program. Pushing through and sticking it out may be your only option there.
 
WBBulldogs said:
Well on the landings I usually fight the angle of descent. My instructor usually has to keep his hands in a position so I won't be able to pull back and lessen the descent. It feels to me like I'm coming in too steep but in reality he tells me I'm not. I also have an issue on remaining center line. I think I am getting better at aiming at the numbers but when I pull back on the yoke to lessen the descent angle because I think it's too steep I screw up the aimpoint.
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The yoke is for speed adjustment. You need to push the nose down as much as needed to keep the speed correct. The power is the descent control, not the yoke. If you want less rate of descent, add more power. Your instructor may require power-off glides from abeam the numbers. That is to teach you better control of the airplane but, in real life, the power is there for you to use. You are trying to adjust descent with the yoke. That is wrong. Also, full flaps will require a much more pronounced nose-down attitude to keep the speed up. I am sure you would be comfortable with a no-flap or low-flap descent but that is not correct teaching either. You have to learn to use the flaps. As an aside, when I trained on the LSA CTLS, I was surprised by how nose-low you approach with full flaps.

Edit: found this vid of CTLS full flap landing. Notice where the horizon is on the ground, on base, and on final. On final, you have ground filling most of the windscreen. That takes a little getting used to.

 
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WBBulldogs said:
So I have about 10 hours in the plane (T41-C) and I feel like I've almost hit a plateau. I don't know if it's normal. I know basic maneuvers well besides S Turns and Turns around a point. My last lesson was horrible. I was loosing altitude like I've never done. At one point I lost over 200 feet which has never happened to me.

I am still kinda poor at landing. I've done over 20 landing with my instructor and I still am rough. My main question: Is all this normal? Should I slow down on how often I am flying. I really feel like I am getting burned out not because I'm bored of it but more of trying to interpret and getting an information overload is what's causing it.

So my main issue now are landings, Turns around a point and S Turns. I still can;t get them down!
Click to expand...

I'm around the same experience level and have gone through some of the same problems you describe. 24 hours logged (about 14 of them solo). As others have said, use the yoke for speed control and power for rate of descent. I have (and still do sometimes) have trouble with feeling comfortable with a nose down attitude on approach. I'll often feel like I am coming in short of the numbers and the natural tendency is to apply back-pressure to the yoke, but that's all wrong, gotta fight the urge to pull up and stay at a proper pitch attitude.

As for turns around a point, one thing you may be doing is focusing or looking to much at the point. Pick your point and then relative to your position just find the proper level of controlled bank (rudder and aileron) and focus on just holding that bank steady and only occasionally checking your point. If you keep a steady controlled turn you should eventually pull a perfect 360 and come back to your origin. Eventually you'll know how to pull wider 360's and smaller 360's with different levels of rudder and aileron combo.

Don't get discouraged and don't overwhelm yourself to the point where it's not fun anymore. Hope that helps.
 
I have about 36 hours and it took me a long time to get this right. Learn to trim correctly. Trim is your friend. An old timer pilot gave me this advice and it solves many issues. The yoke is the speed control. Throttle for altitude- less to descend, more to rise.
 
Skyscraper said:
I'm around the same experience level and have gone through some of the same problems you describe. 24 hours logged (about 14 of them solo). As others have said, use the yoke for speed control and power for rate of descent. I have (and still do sometimes) have trouble with feeling comfortable with a nose down attitude on approach. I'll often feel like I am coming in short of the numbers and the natural tendency is to apply back-pressure to the yoke, but that's all wrong, gotta fight the urge to pull up and stay at a proper pitch attitude.

As for turns around a point, one thing you may be doing is focusing or looking to much at the point. Pick your point and then relative to your position just find the proper level of controlled bank (rudder and aileron) and focus on just holding that bank steady and only occasionally checking your point. If you keep a steady controlled turn you should eventually pull a perfect 360 and come back to your origin. Eventually you'll know how to pull wider 360's and smaller 360's with different levels of rudder and aileron combo.

Don't get discouraged and don't overwhelm yourself to the point where it's not fun anymore. Hope that helps.
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Good advice on the landings. I am sure you know but if you note the position of the runway numbers relative to the windscreen (you can put a sticky dot on the windscreen for practice, if you like) and that position does not change then you are not coming in short (or long), no matter how high on the windscreen that spot lies.

Re the turns, holding the bank steady only works in a no-wind condition. Otherwise you will steadily drift downwind. The main point of the exercise is to learn to vary the bank angle to correct for wind so as to maintain a constant distance from the point.
 
skynewbie said:
I have about 36 hours and it took me a long time to get this right. Learn to trim correctly. Trim is your friend. An old timer pilot gave me this advice and it solves many issues. The yoke is the speed control. Throttle for altitude- less to descend, more to rise.
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One of the first things I had to do as a low-time pilot that had taken 34 years off from flying after getting the PPL was teach myself stabilized approach. I also had problems with the flare. I got hold of "Make Better Landings" by Alan Bransom and it helped immensely. You sound like you have it knocked but if any reader needs help with landings, I thoroughly recommend the book. He covers all types of landings including the gliding landing and the power-assisted landing. Most of us usually do the latter, I warrant. What I would do as a "game" for proficiency is, when practicing the power-assisted landing, I would set power abeam the numbers, and hold that power until turning final. After dropping the last flaps and trimming, I would allow myself one small power adjustment. Ideally, I would not need it but I allowed myself one. I won the game if that last adjustment carried me the rest of the way on speed and path.
 
alfadog said:
Re the turns, holding the bank steady only works in a no-wind condition. Otherwise you will steadily drift downwind. The main point of the exercise is to learn to vary the bank angle to correct for wind so as to maintain a constant distance from the point.
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Thanks for that clarification to my point. I suppose my point is that overcorrecting can be bad and an easy thing for beginners (like myself!) to do, but obviously necessary when dealing with wind corrections. A well balanced and evenly controlled turn (given zero wind conditions) will always bring you back to the same point (eventually). Focusing on the exact point every second of the turn I would consider less important than making sure you come back to the same exact spot in the air once the 360 is done. Once you can pull a really clean 360, you just have to get used to knowing how hard to bank relative to your point on the ground and how big a circle you intend to fly.

I'm really new to all this stuff and talking about it really pumps me up!
 
Skyscraper said:
Thanks for that clarification to my point. I suppose my point is that overcorrecting can be bad and an easy thing for beginners (like myself!) to do, but obviously necessary when dealing with wind corrections. A well balanced and evenly controlled turn (given zero wind conditions) will always bring you back to the same point (eventually). Focusing on the exact point every second of the turn I would consider less important than making sure you come back to the same exact spot in the air once the 360 is done. Once you can pull a really clean 360, you just have to get used to knowing how hard to bank relative to your point on the ground and how big a circle you intend to fly.

I'm really new to all this stuff and talking about it really pumps me up!
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Cool. Remember you are not trying to keep the point in a constant position relative to the wing or strut. That is more advanced work that you will cover in your Commercial training and involves changing altitude (assuming some wind). You can Google "pivotal altitude" if you want to look ahead but do not confuse yourself :D For PPL, you just want to eyeball a constant distance.
 
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