Lets talk Pipers

[Dan Thomas]

Oddly enough, the best Pipers are high-wing.


See: SuperCub.


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Until you get to maintain one or get in and out when you're old and the arthritis is stiffening you up. The Champ/Citabria is far easier on both counts.

But I'd rather have a high-wing. If my Jodel went onto its back in an accident it would be very difficult indeed to get out.

 

[asicer]

Oddly enough, the best Pipers are high-wing.

Low-wing Cessnas aren't half bad either.

 

[Acrodustertoo]

Does a high wing stall better than a low wing? Which type is easier to get into/out of?

 

[cowman]

It totally depends on which two airplanes you're talking about. Between an Archer and a 172, the Archer has the gentler stalling characteristics and the 172 would be easiest to get into.

I don't pretend to be an expert on aerodynamics but I believe how a wing stalls has more to do with it's shape than whether it's mounted high or low.

 

[Pilawt]

(1961 Cessna ad)

 

[FloridaPilot]

If you think climbing in an out of a Piper Cherokee is challenging, just wait until you try doing that in a Mooney

I am 6'4", well over 200 lb and never thought the ingress/egress in my Cherokees was all that difficult. Put your left foot on the floor, slide down into the right front seat, slide across to the driver's seat and pull your right leg in as you do so. I do exactly the same thing with the Piper Aztec I currently own, as it too has only one door.

The Mooney has a lot of leg room, once you are in it. The shoulder room is cosy compared to a Cherokee (imo) and you sit awful close to the yoke and panel.

That is about my size as well, (6'2 well over 200lbs). With the Piper Archer it felt like trying to fit in a box half my size, once you get in it's not bad and I can deal with it until I get my hours, I was just wondering if there are any alternatives.

 

[FloridaPilot]

This is my favorite low wing which I want to fly when I'm ready.

 

[rocketflyer84]

For people that don't have difficulty getting in and out then (unless your doing bush flying) most pilots I know prefer the low wing Pipers. From a training standpoint the Piper family has a much better progression from simple low powered bugsmashers up to twins with cockpit layout and control chacteristics that make for an easy progression to more advanced planes: Warrior -> Archer -> Dakota -> Arrow -> Seminole

If getting in isn't easy for someone then that tends to be a deal killer. For bush flying, that's why you have the Piper Cub.

There is no "perfect plane" just choose the best one for your mission and have fun.

 

[GRG55]

That is about my size as well, (6'2 well over 200lbs). With the Piper Archer it felt like trying to fit in a box half my size, once you get in it's not bad and I can deal with it until I get my hours, I was just wondering if there are any alternatives.

A Rockwell Commander or Socata Trinidad might be worth a try, but they are not training airplanes. The Cirrus SR20 might be a training option if you can find a flight school in your area using them, but it will probably rent for more than the Archer.

 

[mscard88]

The Cessna Cardinal combines the advantages of both the Archer and Skyhawks.

The strutless wing, located behind the pilot means you have better visibility than an Archer/Warrior/140. Two huge door and a very wide cabin (wider than a C182) make it extremely comfortable.

The Cardinal sits lower to the ground than a Skyhawk, but you do need a ladder to refuel it.

Yup always liked the big doors on Cardinals. Best looking SE Cessna too IMO.

 

[dell30rb]

This might be obvious but here is a tip for loading a low wing plane with 1 door like a Piper or Mooney. I actually read this in a manual.

The pilot gets in first, slides his seat up. Then the pilot can slide and hold the co-pilot seat up forward while the backseat passengers get in. Once they are in, the pilot moves the co-pilot seat back and co-pilot gets in.

I used to have the backseat pax get in first. Its much easier this way.

 

[Pilawt]

This might be obvious but here is a tip for loading a low wing plane with 1 door like a Piper or Mooney. I actually read this in a manual.

The pilot gets in first, slides his seat up. Then the pilot can slide and hold the co-pilot seat up forward while the backseat passengers get in. Once they are in, the pilot moves the co-pilot seat back and co-pilot gets in.

I used to have the backseat pax get in first. Its much easier this way.

Even in a 172 or 182 it's easier to have the front seaters get in first. The seats have to be all the way back for them to get their legs in between the front seat cushions and the forward edge of the door frame. Then they can slide the seats forward to open up a ton of room for the back seaters.

 

[James331]

This is my favorite low wing which I want to fly when I'm ready.

View attachment 49109

A mans mans airplane

For people that don't have difficulty getting in and out then (unless your doing bush flying) most pilots I know prefer the low wing Pipers. From a training standpoint the Piper family has a much better progression from simple low powered bugsmashers up to twins with cockpit layout and control chacteristics that make for an easy progression to more advanced planes: Warrior -> Archer -> Dakota -> Arrow -> Seminole

If getting in isn't easy for someone then that tends to be a deal killer. For bush flying, that's why you have the Piper Cub.

There is no "perfect plane" just choose the best one for your mission and have fun.

I wouldn't go that far, when it comes to 172,182,PA28XX, etc, they are mostly interchangeable.

As far as I'm concerned warrior, archer, Dakota are all the same plane, and fly as such.

The Seminole is also the same plane, just with a second engine just for the sake of having a second engine, ie trainer twin. Not really a legit twin IMO

Same with cessnas, I've taken someone from a 172 and put him into a 206 in a few flights, no big deal.

For training, if you can't find a glider or tailwheel, just rent the cheapest trike, whatever it may be

 

[dell30rb]

For training, if you can't find a glider or tailwheel, just rent the cheapest trike, whatever it may be

It took me 1.5 hours to get checked out in our clubs PA28's after getting my private in a 152. So just train in whatever is least expensive.

 

[jsstevens]

Depends! Wanna look like a ww2 fighter? Land easier? Not climb on a ladder to fuel? See the sky? See where you're turning? Have a reasonable place for your retractable gear to stow? Low wing!

Wanna land on rough fields? See the ground slightly easier? Have a built in rain umbrella? Like diamond shaped wounds on your forehead? High wing!


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You left out "Crawl on the ground to sump fuel for preflight." and "Contort your body into natural positions to shimmy into the pilots seat throughout he one door."

That said, I'll take an airplane that flies regardless of where they put the wings on.

John

 

[Seanaldinho]

"traffic no longer a factor"

View attachment 49083

Is that where biplanes come from?

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

Low-wing Cessnas aren't half bad either.

Full agreement.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

You left out "Crawl on the ground to sump fuel for preflight." and "Contort your body into natural positions to shimmy into the pilots seat throughout he one door."

That said, I'll take an airplane that flies regardless of where they put the wings on.

That depends a lot on the particular aircraft. My RV-9A has two drains total (one per tank), nearish to the leading edge, so getting a sample requires an easy crouch. Getting in with a sliding canopy is pretty easy, especially compared to the PA-28 I flew to get my BFR. I'm a big, lanky guy, so I really had to fold myself in place. Granted, if you're of a more average build, it would be easier.

Never got the diamond-shaped wound on my forehead while renting 172s, but I came very close!!! Badge of honor for 172 pilots?

 

[paflyer]

getting in and out is fairly tough especially when the flaps are down when you first get in,

Who does that?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Who does that?

Maybe he is talking about getting back in after completing the preflight? I've never found it troublesome, but I try to avoid stepping on the flap whether it locks upward or not.

 

[paflyer]

Maybe he is talking about getting back in after completing the preflight? I've never found it troublesome, but I try to avoid stepping on the flap whether it locks upward or not.

I don't know- what he wrote didn't make sense. If you put the flaps down to preflight it's not much of a step (in fact it's the same regardless) to get onto the wing. I originally thought that he can't get to the left seat with the flaps down and the bar up, duh!

 

[FloridaPilot]

A mans mans airplane

I also saw how much it would cost to overhaul the PT6 (400K) those are a mans man expenses.

I don't know- what he wrote didn't make sense. If you put the flaps down to preflight it's not much of a step (in fact it's the same regardless) to get onto the wing. I originally thought that he can't get to the left seat with the flaps down and the bar up, duh!

No someone left the flaps down in the archer. You are right it doesn't make sense because whomever took the Archer for a spin didn't follow the landing checklist.

 

[paflyer]

No someone left the flaps down in the archer. You are right it doesn't make sense because whomever took the Archer for a spin didn't follow the landing checklist.

Look for someone holding their nuts in agony.

 

[RudyP]

Okay so I fly a Piper Archer at the flight school I attend when the 172 is unavailable. It's old and looks it (1977). It only has one door, I'm a fairly wide in the shoulders and long in the legs so getting in and out is fairly tough especially when the flaps are down when you first get in, (For those that don't know, Archers have a parking brake in a car looking stick that raises and lowers the flaps).

So the question is: Do all of the older model Pipers have this kind of setup, (One door to get in). IMO Cessna 172's have the advantage with just getting in and out in my opinion.

What do you guys think?

View attachment 49075

Weren't you looking at an SR22 at some point? Two doors, low wing and just about anything you might want for a piston single. What's not to like??

 

[paflyer]

Weren't you looking at an SR22 at some point? Two doors, low wing and just about anything you might want for a piston single. What's not to like??

Banking $1000/yr for a chute repack?

 

[GRG55]

For training, if you can't find a glider or tailwheel, just rent the cheapest trike, whatever it may be

 

[Bonchie]

When I was training I basically asked myself two questions. Does it fly? Is it cheap? Alright, let's go.

I survived luckily.

 

[FloridaPilot]

Weren't you looking at an SR22 at some point? Two doors, low wing and just about anything you might want for a piston single. What's not to like??

Yeah but my flight school said that they don't train new students in SR22's They had an SR20 but someone purchased it from them.

Banking $1000/yr for a chute repack?

Would you bank $1,000/year if you knew it was going to save your life one day? I know I would! Most people would spend that on Coffee anyway.

 

[gsengle]

Don't think cirrus is a very good trainer...


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[James331]

...Would you bank $1,000/year if you knew it was going to save your life one day? I know I would! Most people would spend that on Coffee anyway.

If you can tell the future you don't need a chute, you'd just not fly on the day you were going to "need" it.


I've flown quite a few hours, had two full engine failures, both would have been much more dangerous had I been in a cirrus, both in attempting to land the cirrus by control, and ALSO if I would have attempted to land one via pulling the chute.

Don't think cirrus is a very good trainer...

Why? Aside from being expensive and having a lot of gadgets which a VFR student doesn't need, it's really not that different from any other trainer trike.

 

[FloridaPilot]

If you can tell the future you don't need a chute, you'd just not fly on the day you were going to "need" it.

Nah.....that's too easy. You had to save 20 bucks a week for ten years to save your life, you wouldn't do it?

 

[gsengle]

Why? Aside from being expensive and having a lot of gadgets which a VFR student doesn't need, it's really not that different from any other trainer trike.

It doesn't have an honest control feel, and it's too complex. And a bit too fast.

We just had an immense thread on Mooneyspace where someone was training in an SR20, and even the student pretty soon came to that conclusion, after it was pretty late in the process and it was taking him way too long to complete...


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[James331]

Nah.....that's too easy. You had to save 20 bucks a week for ten years to save your life, you wouldn't do it?

Sure, now prove to me that if I don't burn $20 a week I'm going to die.

 

[labbadabba]

I don't like the way high wing Cessna's look. They are ugly aircraft. That's reason enough.

'79 T-Tail Turbo Lances aren't very pretty either tho. : )

 

[labbadabba]

What do you need the ladder for?

I can't remember the last time I used a ladder to fuel a Cessna.

Anything older than a K model 172 lacks the handlebars at the firewall and a skid strip on the strut. Very tricky if you don't have a ladder.

 

[labbadabba]

View attachment 49101

Subjective I know but it's beautiful!!

Yep, T206 is a beast machine. Love it.

 

[labbadabba]

A Rockwell Commander or Socata Trinidad might be worth a try, but they are not training airplanes. The Cirrus SR20 might be a training option if you can find a flight school in your area using them, but it will probably rent for more than the Archer.

Oh yeah, the Socatas are NICE. Doors both sides and nice a roomy. The TB9s are slow AF, TB10s are hard to find, but TB21s are sweet.

 

[Pilawt]

Anything older than a K model 172 lacks the handlebars at the firewall and a skid strip on the strut. Very tricky if you don't have a ladder.

And they were optional after that. My 172N does not have them.

 

[James331]

Anything older than a K model 172 lacks the handlebars at the firewall and a skid strip on the strut. Very tricky if you don't have a ladder.

As long as you have that step, you should be good, skid strip is easy if you don't already have one.

NEEDING a ladder to fuel is not a situation I'd want to get myself in

 

[GRG55]

Yeah but my flight school said that they don't train new students in SR22's They had an SR20 but someone purchased it from them.



Would you bank $1,000/year if you knew it was going to save your life one day? I know I would! Most people would spend that on Coffee anyway.

The SR22 is not a training airplane. Your school is correct about that. If you want to train in an SR20 I'm sure you can find a school that has one, and a Cirrus certified instructor to go with it. Just make sure your budget is adequate to pay the premium for that privilege.

You will need to bank a LOT more than $1000/yr to cover the yearly increment required to keep a Cirrus in the air. Nothing wrong with that choice. But it is not available to all of us who wish to fly.