Let's chat about Pacers

D

docmirror

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
12,008
Display Name
Display name:
Cowboy - yeehah!
I found Short wing Pipers website. Always liked the Tripe, but the Pacer is even nicer. I have about 25 minutes in one.

I know about the strut AD on all high wing planes, and know about the high rate of descent on power off. Use case is primary training for a new pilot, then 2-4 hours legs with one or two up and a dog. Mostly improved airports, with some grass once in a while.

What else do I need to know?
 
"What else to know"...

Maybe avoid the O-290
 
Strangely, I was looking at the O-290 for lower fuel burn.
 
docmirror said:
Strangely, I was looking at the O-290 for lower fuel burn.
Click to expand...

Did the retractable gear big bore Conti purchase fall through?

You know better than to go looking elsewhere, get that retractable gear big bore conti.
 
bartmc said:
Did the retractable gear big bore Conti purchase fall through?

You know better than to go looking elsewhere, get that retractable gear big bore conti.
Click to expand...

Nope, I got it. Still shopping. This is for another pilot. the big bore Conti retract is doing just fiiiiiiine.
 
docmirror said:
Nope, I got it. Still shopping. This is for another pilot. the big bore Conti retract is doing just fiiiiiiine.
Click to expand...

I like pacers, if I get a 2nd plane for farting around it will be a pacer. Thinkin about picking one up just to learn how to put fabric on one. I like bonanzas my wife likes tube and rag tail wheels.
 
I learned on a TW, and I think it made me a better pilot. They also seem like a bargain if it's true they go a bit faster on the same HP C172. I've just never been much of a Cessna guy. I know they make good planes, but the only one that interests me is the C177.
 
I have flown a couple of Pacers and I like them. Get a 150/160 hp for sure. The O-290 is is hard to find parts for and expensive when you find them. One that I flew had VGs and that fixes the high sink rate. Piper took a sweet flying airplane and made it into a real dog when they made the Tri Pacer. Don
 
Docmirror - either on this board or the Purple Board, there are two Pacer folks you should consider talking to. One is "Flyer23D": he is an experienced and meticulous owner with a 195 and a Pacer. The other is "Smcnutt": he (and his wife I think) got a nice clean Pacer and used it for Primary training. I think both of those folks can offer a lot of thoughts on the plane.
 
You can post any questions you have here and you will get a lot of knowledgeable friendly replies:

http://www.shortwingpipers.org

I have a PA-22/20 with 160 HP with climb prop. Feel free to ask me anything here or PM.

Rich
 
Short wing is the key. You want the higher horsepower pacer. It's a great flyer and easy to fly. Be sure a tube and fabric pro goes over it carefully.
 
Well, here's what I'm most concerned about. the majority of fabric planes go on the market when the plane needs extensive, even complete fabric work. I haven't had a fabric plane since the 80s, so I'm going to investigate the fabric very carefully.

The two planes I've called on so far, the seller didn't know when the fabric was last replaced but they both assured me the fabric was in good shape for 'a while yet' or something like that.

I'm also concerned that most of the low price ones have the O-290, and it's not well supported. Each time I look at a better plane, the price goes up where it's no longer a good deal, and cap ex, plus op ex starts me back on the metal plane bandwagon.

I'd like a Pacer, but I also don't want something that will cost $$$$ right after I get invested.
 
docmirror said:
Each time I look at a better plane, the price goes up where it's no longer a good deal, and cap ex, plus op ex starts me back on the metal plane bandwagon.
Click to expand...

That's the story on most airplanes, the key for a seller is finding a buyer that is looking for a "deal" and unloading one that need all the work.
 
Well, I don't mind doing some general repairs on any plane. I just got one that's gonna need some electronics work, and I can do much of that. But - I can't and won't learn fabric and if one part of a fabric plane is in rough shape, the whole thing is prolly in bad condition.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I am not quite wrapping my brain around how that works. Can you enlighten me?
Click to expand...

Lowers the stall speed and almost makes it a floater. I can't really explain it aerodynamicly it's more of a feel thing. The day I flew it I flew two Pacers back to back. One thing to look at on a Pacer is the belly under the floorboards. It's a ***** to get the floor board up and I have seen lots of rust in the channels that support the belly fabric. Don
 
yakdriver said:
Lowers the stall speed and almost makes it a floater.
Click to expand...

Ok, I can understand that. But what I was questioning was your apparent statement that the VGs solved a steep approach problem. THAT is what I am questioning because I can't see how that would happen.
 
docmirror said:
Well, here's what I'm most concerned about. the majority of fabric planes go on the market when the plane needs extensive, even complete fabric work.
Click to expand...

When I looked at Tri-Pacers, I hunted out a few candidates. The board's consensus was to try and find those that had been recovered "recently". Finding a deal on those was hard. Everyone knows that fabric is the key. The one I was most looking at, had hail damage 2 years prior. Nothing went through the fabric, but it caused paint to lose cohesion in places. A local expert then scraped the damaged paint away , resilvered, and repainted. I thought I was the smartest shopper in the world, because every other buyer was afraid to deal with it. Right when I planned to come look at it, the owner bent the motor mount. He went to replace gear bungees, and while doing the second one the front hook slipped along the mount member away from attachment point. The plane didn't fall off the hoist, but the now-longer arm was enough to bend the mount. I cancelled that deal.

My current airplane was covered in 2006 and it's still fine... I think... I'm actually looking for someone to test it.
 
docmirror said:
Well, here's what I'm most concerned about. the majority of fabric planes go on the market when the plane needs extensive, even complete fabric work. I haven't had a fabric plane since the 80s, so I'm going to investigate the fabric very carefully.

The two planes I've called on so far, the seller didn't know when the fabric was last replaced but they both assured me the fabric was in good shape for 'a while yet' or something like that.

I'm also concerned that most of the low price ones have the O-290, and it's not well supported. Each time I look at a better plane, the price goes up where it's no longer a good deal, and cap ex, plus op ex starts me back on the metal plane bandwagon.

I'd like a Pacer, but I also don't want something that will cost $$$$ right after I get invested.
Click to expand...
The owner " didn't know when it had been recovered"?! Run for your life! find one with an owner that knows everything about it, preferably the fellow who rebuilt it. it and a tube and fabric pro to go over it carefully. There are nice ones around and it takes a little time to sort out the bs'ers. You should not spend much at all if you invest in a nice rebuild that has always ALWAYS been hangared. If your not going to hangar it, don't buy it. A nice one requires a lot of time and knowledge to rebuild. It won't be a "steal". Just to cover it and paint it correctly today, is around 20-25 grand. The 290 is the wrong engine. With the higher horsepower, it performs well. The other nice one is the F model Luscombe which is a lot of fun. Again, someone up to speed to check it out. F model only.
 
Last edited:
I know when I tried to sit in one my head hit the headliner.
But then I have a long torso and that seems to happen in a few planes.
 
Well, like all brilliant schemes this one is falling apart as well. by the time I find one that has current fabric, a 150 engine, and decent times, the prices are back up where real plane prices are. I might as well get an old 172 and be done with it.
 
My trophy winning taylorcraft was last recovered with Ceconite in 1996. It was never left out of a hangar when not flown after that. Last annual, the fabric was like new, paint looked like new and tested perfect. If covered correctly, always hangared they will hold up very well. If tied down outside, forget it. Painting it is another art and must be done correctly. Easy to spot a lousy job. Silver undercoat, very important also. I would choose a pacer over a tri pacer any day but that's only my opinion. These old tube and fabric taildraggers are completely different animals than droning around in a 172 . Much more fun and challenging, and if you pay for a nice one, keep it nice, hangared, you'll get your money back.
 
Last edited:
Greg Bockelman said:
Ok, I can understand that. But what I was questioning was your apparent statement that the VGs solved a steep approach problem. THAT is what I am questioning because I can't see how that would happen.
Click to expand...

No it still does a nice steep approach but it doesn't have the high sink rate on roundout. Don
 
Yes I agree that's pushing it. I would be patient, watch both trade a plane and barnstormers often. I nice one will appear sooner or later. This is the time of year they show up. I would look for one done from 2000 on. Stilts is fine, ceconite, etc. they show up on trade a plane as old geezers like me still use it. I've sold, over the years , a trophy champ and two t crafts on TAP. I bought two word of mouth. I looked for a good while and in each instance I bought from the fellow who rebuilt it. They were very proud of their work and deserved to be and the airplanes were really outstanding. All had wheel pants which really set them off and work just fine on grass strips. Don't give up! If you buy a nice 160 pacer or an F model luscombe you will fly with a big grin! Your probably looking at at least 25 grand maybe up to 30 for a stunner.
 
Last edited:
docmirror said:
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_files/7/9/8/1/6/0/798160-PA22_Sale_Bill_Barnstormers_AD.pdf

this is about the best I can find around my price. The fabric was put on in 87. How long can Stits last? I'm guessing ~30 years, and that's coming up fast.
Click to expand...

If it has been hangered most of that time the fabric will be fine. If kept in a hangar in a dry southwest climate like that one Stitts will last almost forever. Have someone check it out for you as it doesn't look like a bad airplane. Don
 
yakdriver said:
If it has been hangered most of that time the fabric will be fine. If kept in a hangar in a dry southwest climate like that one Stitts will last almost forever. Have someone check it out for you as it doesn't look like a bad airplane. Don
Click to expand...

I agree but only under the above mentioned conditions. If kept in a hangar always, not just for a certain time and if kept only in the south west it might be ok. Here in the east, just sitting in a damp hangar can start the process of ruining it unless it's flown regularly. Not to mention that it's very difficult to check for spar damage unless you strip the fabric off the wings. A ground loop, unreported , can eventually ruin you whole day. I personally think after 20 years, it's time to at least redo the wings and take a look see. Many log books should be read to children at bed time as they are fairy tales. I learned this the hard way with my Stearman. Much of this I learned the expensive way over the years. The engine on the one pictured is too high for me. I would want it to say about 500 hrs. At most. His price is too low for this reason I think.
 
Last edited:
Modern fabric doesn't mold, it doesn't rot. About the only thing that can damage it is UV so as long as it's got the proper paint it will last virtually forever. The actual problem is the underlying tubular frame that hasn't been inspected in 30 years.
 
By taking the floorboard up and using a bright light the fuselage can be inspected pretty readily using the inspection plates near the tail, etc. the wings are another story. If the spars -ribs are metal probably- maybe ok, if wood , since 1987? Maybe not. It looks nice, but then so did my Stearman. ( it had a damaged lower spar. Costly. ) the seller had to have known this. Caveat emptor.
 
So does the Luscombe but very susceptible to corrosion. I think this owner has flown the fun out of the engine and wants to move it. I could be wrong but It's high time. To overhaul it you'd have a 45 thousand dollar pacer, maybe more. It's like the city bus, there will be another along soon.
 
The one that will be along soon will be the same if it is in my price range. Getting a no surprises plane is well over $30k. Like I said at that point, I might as well go to a metal 172.
 
Another thing about these vintage airplanes is that beneath the fabric they're constructed of plain steel tube - not chromoly. As a result, besides the usual fabric problems there can be extensive rust. Some can actually be seem through the fabric. I like Pacers well enough, but much prefer a stick to a control yoke. Clipper for me, thank you…and one with a O-320. About as rare as a DC-5.
 
j1b3h0 said:
Another thing about these vintage airplanes is that beneath the fabric they're constructed of plain steel tube - not chromoly. As a result, besides the usual fabric problems there can be extensive rust. Some can actually be seem through the fabric.
Click to expand...

Is 4130 steel tubing actually more resistant to rust than 1020 steel tubing? Another thing I don't know is when aircraft manufacturers shifted from 1020 to 4130, but I thought is before/during World War Two. Either way, rust in steel tubing is not your friend.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top