Legal Trouble

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flygirl34q

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I would like some opinions from some neutral parties on an issue that has come up within an organization that I once thought was a really fun place to be around. Read this article (it's short!):

http://www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/114824619.html

and then tell me what you think is going to happen. The Daniel in the article was a friend once... he allowed me a certain amount of privilege only a few others (mostly staff) had on the organization's message forum, Christopher and I had fun going on vacation with him and his wife, and he used to share with me just a small amount of the considerable frustrations he was going through making his job at the POS work and on top of all that, his thoughts as he was working on his private pilot's certificate.

But, it seems that he has gotten himself into some trouble recently and I worry that his family will be the ones to pay the most for it. I haven't talked to him since Oshkosh last year and I regret that I wasn't particularly nice to him then, even though he turned his home into a doggy day care for Nikki when he absolutely did not have to do that. This has come as a complete surprise and I'm not sure what I can do to help, if anything. The wonderful folks on the POS (both current and former) are of course mostly very vocal in calling for his resignation even though the POS management has already put out a statement that they are standing behind him whatever the outcome of the legal wrangling. He is just on my mind today and this situation is sad and unfortunate. He has a wife and 4 young daughters. :(
 
I think it's certain he's going to have a bunch of legal bills. Beyond that, it's impossible to say, especially given the vagueness and apparent inaccuracy of the linked news item (SHC Direct is a marketing support company, not another name for the Sony Corporation).
 
It'll be bad either way. Either he'll get off and be saddled with huge legal bills, or he'll go to jail and be saddled with huge legal bills.
 
steingar said:
It'll be bad either way. Either he'll get off and be saddled with huge legal bills, or he'll go to jail and be saddled with huge legal bills.
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What he said.
 
On second thought, it is possible to avoid the "huge legal bills," but in that case, going to jail is more or less certain, along with a bill for restitution of the $78K.
 
I don't know about "huge" legal bills. I would expect his representation in this to be far less than the restitution of the stolen money unless he's seriously considering asserting his innocence down to a verdict. The best advice is if he did it, fess up, pay up, show remorse and hope for a judge on a soft day. If he's innocent, by all means fight it to his last dollar because that's what I'd do to avoid being a convicted felon for something I didn't do.
 
What is POS?

As for what will happen legally who knows. It will depend on the stregnth of the case. But in 21 years of criminal defense experience I can tell you that White Collar Crime is often easy to prove because it leaves a good trail.
 
I've been involved twice in similar phony invoice schemes as counsel for the business that was the victim of the crime. These are interesting cases to investigate.

Every situation is different, but from what I have seen, if he admits his guilt before trial, there is a good chance that he will end up with a felony conviction, probation and a restitution order.

If he goes to trial and loses, all bets are off.

Edit: Google tells me that he has been charged in Federal Court on "information" rather than via an indictment. This is often an indication that a plea bargain is already in place.
 
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A number of years back I intended to join the POS, owning a clapped out Piper and all... For whatever reason I got a bad vibe after talking with him - might have been just gas on my part - and decided to let it go...

Intuition or happenstance? Beats me...
 
AdamZ said:
What is POS?

As for what will happen legally who knows. It will depend on the stregnth of the case. But in 21 years of criminal defense experience I can tell you that White Collar Crime is often easy to prove because it leaves a good trail.
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Apparently, there is significant evidence against him and as you said there was a lengthy paper trail. I believe he is planning on pleading "guilty" to the charges and that is why I was wanting to know what the outcome might be. There is a maximum sentence as outlined in the article, but most people don't automatically get that. I was wondering what his chances were to avoid jail and big fines/restitution that he most likely doesn't have the resources to pay. Does the "guilty" plea mean that he made some kind of deal to avoid the worst sentence possible even though he will now have a felony conviction on his record for the rest of his life? :( I believe the Pitts pilot up there mentioned that he should hope for a judge in a good mood on the day of his sentencing. I really hope that he got himself a good lawyer.
 
Might try for some sort of plea bargain. May or may not work, depending on the strength of the prosecutor's case. At least, that's how it always works on TV.
 
Two questions:
Did he get the money?
Did the product get delivered?

If:
Yes and Yes, no worries.
No and No, no worries after proving he didn't get the money
No and Yes, no worries.
Yes and No, well, I hear there are federal country club prisons, but the first thing you do is become someone's.......
 
If his transgressions have not impacted the organization (and I hope that he has not violated that trust), it would be unkind to punish him on an individual basis for what he has done.

By the same token, if you or Chris are in positions of fiduciary responsibility, you should be very careful that you do not create any appearance of impropriety relating to association with (for example) a felon. Unlikely but worth considering.
 
Does POS handle money? Is he in a position to have access to or control of POS's money? Is POS bonded? If so, a conviction or guilty plea on a financial crime like this will almost certainly require that he be removed from such a position. And I can't blame the POS members for their clamor for his suspension pending resolution and removal upon conviction, either, if their money is where he can get it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Does POS handle money? Is he in a position to have access to or control of POS's money? Is POS bonded? If so, a conviction or guilty plea on a financial crime like this will almost certainly require that he be removed from such a position. And I can't blame the POS members for their clamor for his suspension pending resolution and removal upon conviction, either, if their money is where he can get it.
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Ron is quite right here - if your friend is in the position of exercising any kind of executive control, the Board of the organization likely has a responsibility to fully investigate and act in accordance. Cannot be personal.

It can be uncomfortable - but I've seen the consequences of excessive trust in friendship, trust which was breached.
 
TedR3 said:
I've been involved twice in similar phony invoice schemes as counsel for the business that was the victim of the crime. These are interesting cases to investigate.

Every situation is different, but from what I have seen, if he admits his guilt before trial, there is a good chance that he will end up with a felony conviction, probation and a restitution order.

If he goes to trial and loses, all bets are off.

Edit: Google tells me that he has been charged in Federal Court on "information" rather than via an indictment. This is often an indication that a plea bargain is already in place.
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The Feds don't issue an information unless they know they are going to win. They are not big risk takers like local prosecutors are. I also disagree that all bets are off if one goes to trial. There are sentencing guildlines and they still need to be followed. Federal Sentencing Guidleines are insanely difficult to interpret so to that end all bets may indeed be off.

flygirl34q said:
Apparently, there is significant evidence against him and as you said there was a lengthy paper trail. I believe he is planning on pleading "guilty" to the charges and that is why I was wanting to know what the outcome might be. There is a maximum sentence as outlined in the article, but most people don't automatically get that. I was wondering what his chances were to avoid jail and big fines/restitution that he most likely doesn't have the resources to pay. Does the "guilty" plea mean that he made some kind of deal to avoid the worst sentence possible even though he will now have a felony conviction on his record for the rest of his life? :( I believe the Pitts pilot up there mentioned that he should hope for a judge in a good mood on the day of his sentencing. I really hope that he got himself a good lawyer.
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Assuming a conviction he will most certainly be ordered to pay resititution I haven't reviewed the sentencing guidelines but I would venture a pretty good guess that he will see some jail time but who knows his pleas agreement may enable him to avoid jail. Some guilty pleas are negotiated meaning you konw what you are going to get for the plea and in those cases it is usually a reduced sentence. Some pleas are open guilty pleas where you plead guilty because you don't have a snowballs chance in hell but there is no agreement so you have to make a REALLY good pitch to the Court for as light a sentence as you can get.

SCCutler said:
If his transgressions have not impacted the organization (and I hope that he has not violated that trust), it would be unkind to punish him on an individual basis for what he has done.

By the same token, if you or Chris are in positions of fiduciary responsibility, you should be very careful that you do not create any appearance of impropriety relating to association with (for example) a felon. Unlikely but worth considering.
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mmmm disagree there a bit. If he is an officer in the organization or a person with a fiduciary responsibility then if you don't remove him you may violate your insurance policy. Whether to kick him out of the club entirley thats a whole different story.
 
AdamZ said:
The Feds don't issue an information unless they know they are going to win.
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Not veer off into legal minutae, but its my understanding that under FRCP 7 Federal prosecutors must proceed through an indictment unless the Defendant waives his right to a grand jury in open Court. Thus, the presumption that information = forthcoming plea bargain.
 
I missed the fact that he pled guilty. I guess that leaves no question.

If he's your friend, and hasn't done anything to hurt that friendship, I suppose staying his friend would be a good thing to do.

I question the credibility of anyone who feels that crime is the answer to a challenging family situation.
 
If Jones Publishing "owns" POS, who owns Jones Publishing? If it's privately owned entirely by Mr. Jones, it's his decision and his problem alone, whether the POS members with no ownership stake like it or not. OTOH, if it's a publicly-held corporation, or privately owned by other partners, Mr. Jones' decision to retain Mr. Weiler could create significant problems for Mr. Jones, including potential liability for the impact of this decision on the value of the company (stock or otherwise), especially if any future losses are due to malfeasance by Mr. Weiler.
 
Jesus F-ing Christ, the dude scammed $78k of sales incentive money from Sony, he's not running around setting kittens on fire. If the dude was your friend and did you no wrong and you write him off over this, I don't know what I'd think of you.... It's Sony, not Mother freakin Theresa he scammed, it's kinda like picking Satan's pocket....
 
Henning said:
Jesus F-ing Christ, the dude scammed $78k of sales incentive money from Sony, he's not running around setting kittens on fire. If the dude was your friend and did you no wrong and you write him off over this, I don't know what I'd think of you.... It's Sony, not Mother freakin Theresa he scammed, it's kinda like picking Satan's pocket....
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I dunno, a scammer is a scammer, whether he or she scams Sony, the Post Office, or my grandma. If he really did scam someone, I have no use for the guy and hope they throw him in jail. I never have had much use for thieves.
 
I'm no fan of his whatsoever and I think he helped really f***k the POS up, but to be fair, I think the question needs to be asked, is he actually a crook, or did he just violate some Federal statute on a technicality. Sort of like how you and I can get on a sex offender list by unknowingly whizzing on the side of the road within a half mile of a grade school.
 
We had a family friend who was convicted of embezzlement from a government agency a few years ago. There were similar feelings about "How do you handle it personally?" from a number of folks in my family. This is someone I've known and was baby-sat by as a child. A very long-term relationship.

We've all remained friends with the person, but there's a new "distance" that's hard to describe there, and probably rightly so...

The person is now a convicted criminal, did jail time, and was released. None of us are privy to any further stipulations of the Court (probation, etc.) and as far as I know, none of us have gone looking to find out in public records. We assume there's a restitution payment process also going on there as well.

A few thoughts come to mind:
- Everyone who was close enough to this person knew that they made a wage that would have been "comfortable" to most folks, but never could manage it properly. Requests for personal loans were fairly common, and eventually were fruitless since "word got around". There was a pattern long before the embezzlement. In fact, the embezzlement to this person's way of thinking at the time was "just another loan" they were going to pay back.

- The person also has other questionable risk-taking behavior in their life. Being this is in public, I won't expound deeply, but look closely for this. In my non-professional opinion, often-times embezzlers are akin to compulsive gamblers, and it's a similar mind-set. Look closely and judge for yourself.

- And the most important of all, "You do the crime, you do the time." Many here have expressed this as a general disgust for thieves, and I must say, I'm in agreement.

- One person here seemed to think that because the embezzlement was from a large Corporation it was okay, because certainly that large Corporation has done bad/evil things too. Frankly, I don't buy that. I am not a fan of much government, but my friend's stealing from them simply can't be rationalized or justified away by saying the government must have also done "bad things", so it was okay. Either we have morals, ethics, and standards in our personal lives, or we don't. Blurring the lines by saying "If the other party to the crime also did something bad, it's 'more okay' to have committed a crime against them." is wrong. I felt it was important to state this, but it's also technically off-topic to your question of, "What do I do?".

As far as the request for resignation from the POA leadership, it's a given. Anyone with an embezzlement conviction is a huge liability and will drive up corporate liability coverage rates, amongst other things, and keeping a person with a conviction for embezzlement on the leadership team of any Corporation will hurt the members, long-term.

Isolation of the business from someone with an embezzlement accusation, and eventually complete separation, and making sure they have no influence what-so-ever over Corporate funds during the investigation, is pretty much mandatory unless the organization is stupid.

Back to your personal relationship... if your interactions with the person were positive, and someone asks, then that's your answer. You didn't do business with the person accused, and therefore your opinion about their business dealings is similarly limited. Your personal relationship doesn't change because they were accused of, or convicted of, a crime. You choose via your own moral code if you wish to continue association, but until then... you're still their friend.

Many theives/crooks are masters of charm and charisma, as evidenced by almost every ponzi scheme ever documented. "I trusted him. We were going to make millions of dollars." Or even just by looking at the lives of most politicians. ;-) (A little levity there for your situation.) You'll find yourself being more careful around this person, and either avoiding the topic of their conviction or point-blank asking them, "What were you thinking?!" at some point or another, if you're spending any significant time with them.

Whether or not you wish to continue to remain friends, spend significant time with, or otherwise continue to associate with an accused person or eventually, perhaps -- a convict -- is really a personal decision. There's a personal/moral/societal stigma associated with it, and rightly so. If you're a person to judge on FULL character, you'll probably disassociate over time. If you're a person to judge only on how that person has dealt with you personally, you may continue as if nothing happened... and there's a range of things in-between those two extremes, which is usually "where most of us live."

In my personal experience, I've met people who's jail time really turned them around, or that they were truly sorry for, maybe even from the moment they got caught... some even felt "relief" that someone finally put a stop to them, and their destructive behavior.

These people were generally good folks who had to live with restrictions for many years on their lives and were truly "rehabilitated". I've also met cons who's stripes didn't change, they just got a lot sneakier the next time around.

Your friendship, your call.

My initial (and maybe overly harsh) opinion of the message/response was, "Just because someone was nice to your dog, doesn't mean you should ever trust them with your money... or anyone else's for that matter." If you want my gut feeling.

Hard to get the full spectrum of thoughts on this type of situation out in just a few typed paragraphs...
 
Henning said:
Jesus F-ing Christ, the dude scammed $78k of sales incentive money from Sony, he's not running around setting kittens on fire. If the dude was your friend and did you no wrong and you write him off over this, I don't know what I'd think of you.... It's Sony, not Mother freakin Theresa he scammed, it's kinda like picking Satan's pocket....
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Would you like it if I scammed $78K sales incentive money from your company? Where is the line drawn?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Would you like it if I scammed $78K sales incentive money from your company? Where is the line drawn?
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That's just it, he didn't do it to me.... If Sony wants to be ****ed and hold it against him, that's fine, THEY are the ones who registered the complaint.

If the person has never done anything but right by me then I don't feel It would be my place to condemn him. If he had scammed from me, NOW I can hold it against him.
 
Henning said:
That's just it, he didn't do it to me.... If Sony wants to be ****ed and hold it against him, that's fine, THEY are the ones who registered the complaint.

If the person has never done anything but right by me then I don't feel It would be my place to condemn him. If he had scammed from me, NOW I can hold it against him.
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Usually I agree with you Henning - in this case - that is some pretty jacked up logic.
 
I can overlook a lot of transgressions, but stealing is not one of them. I don't care if it is from a big company, a small company, me, or someone else, I just can not trust a thief. I'll never invite one into my house, that's for sure.
 
Henning said:
That's just it, he didn't do it to me.... If Sony wants to be ****ed and hold it against him, that's fine, THEY are the ones who registered the complaint.

If the person has never done anything but right by me then I don't feel It would be my place to condemn him. If he had scammed from me, NOW I can hold it against him.
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Sorry- he did scam it from you. Loss of money to share holders, smaller bonuses to those who deserve it, higher prices for Sony products, the cost of trying him and then possibly feeding him in jail- society as a whole does pay the price.
 
Didn't affect me? Eh, no problem. It's just a write-off anyway. :idea:

Can't do the time? Don't do the crime.

Would I stay friends? Mayhaps. But it would definitely affect the relationship. If a dude is going to stoop to crime, where does he draw the line???????????
 
flyersfan31 said:
Didn't affect me? Eh, no problem. It's just a write-off anyway. :idea:

Can't do the time? Don't do the crime.

Would I stay friends? Mayhaps. But it would definitely affect the relationship. If a dude is going to stoop to crime, where does he draw the line???????????
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flyersfan31 said:
Would I stay friends? Mayhaps. But it would definitely affect the relationship. If a dude is going to stoop to crime, where does he draw the line???????????
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You make a very good point. Conversely, where does a friend to such a person draw the line? Someone committing such a crime wrote themselves out of my life. I don't knowingly associate with criminals, not as acquaintances and definitely not as a friend. This partially and precisely for the point you make.
 
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Just because he pled guilty, does not mean he KNOWINGLY did anything wrong. I agree with Henning. He hasn't done me personal harm and is still the same person I knew before this event.
My opinion might change if I find out this was a deliberate act, but isn't it possible he just screwed up the paperwork without intent?
 
silver-eagle said:
Just because he pled guilty, does not mean he KNOWINGLY did anything wrong. I agree with Henning. He hasn't done me personal harm and is still the same person I knew before this event.
My opinion might change if I find out this was a deliberate act, but isn't it possible he just screwed up the paperwork without intent?
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It is sort of difficult to claim you just "screwed up the paperwork," when the paperwork in question is a series of claims of sales which were never made.

---

As for remaining friends, well, there would likely always be a pall of sorts. Kind of like the old joke which ends, "...we've established what you are, now we're just dickering over price." You'll always be wondering: is he going to try to cheat me next?
 
The question the management for which he works should be asking isn't whether they want to be friends with him or not, but whether they can trust him to handle their assets without putting something that belongs to the company in his own pocket instead of the company's. IOW, it should be just business, nothing personal. And, as I said above, if the company has D&O or employee theft insurance, the insurer may not be happy with this person as a corporate officer anyway, which would kind of take the decision out of the company's hands.
 
silver-eagle said:
Just because he pled guilty, does not mean he KNOWINGLY did anything wrong. I agree with Henning. He hasn't done me personal harm and is still the same person I knew before this event.
My opinion might change if I find out this was a deliberate act, but isn't it possible he just screwed up the paperwork without intent?
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I didn't bother reading the link of this guy's troubles. I will say that a guy, if innocent, who 'pleads out' to a felony is making a grave mistake. I can fathom several reasons which may seem good reasons to accept a guilty plea even though innocent. Yet at the end of the day, those reasons don't hold water, a felony conviction is a very serious matter with longlasting consequences, jail sentence being just one. I would have to be dragged screaming to plead guilty to a felony if inncocent.

Personally and professionally, I would be very jealous about associating with such a guy.
 
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