legal question

U

Unregistered

Guest
I’m observing something on a frequent basis that I wonder if it is legal.

A student pilot with another student pilot as passenger. When questioned he states that both are solo students and each could take the plane up alone.
The same student with a pilot rated passenger who has no medical and therefore cannot be PIC. ( The plane in non sport pilot qualified)

He’s a nice guy and does a lot of good work around the airpark but I think he’s sticking his neck out unless what he’s doing is legal.

I logged out because if someone does burn him I don't want to get blamed. I consider him a friend who has helped me many times.
 
It is against the regs.. This is very simple..

Two students, NO!..

A student and a Pilot? Which is PIC?
1. The student cannnot be, because this would make the licensed Pilot his Passenger. Students can only be PIC when Solo...
2. The Pilot cannot be PIC, becuase he has no medical..


This is a bad idea all around, and I would let his CFI know what is happening.


So the Student is breaking the Regs, the Pilot without the medical should know better, and the CFI's ass will be in hot water too... If it is found out
 
I'm no expert on this stuff, but the way it was explained to me was that one of them must be the PIC at any given time. That said, since the other one can't be a passenger or a instructor or check pilot, it can't be legal.
 
My understanding as well. Illegal as can be. If you're a student pilot, you either A.) Ride with a CFI as a student pilot, or B.) Fly solo, or C.) ride with a licensed pilot, qualified to fly as PIC, as a passenger. If you fly with another student pilot OR with a licensed pilot who doesn't have a current medical, whoever is in the left seat playing PIC is wrong.

At least that's my understanding of it.
 
I would hesitate to use the word "Illegal", as this is a civil matter.

But it is certainly against the FAR's, and everyones certs are hanging in the balance...
 
ja_user said:
I would hesitate to use the word "Illegal", as this is a civil matter.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't hesitate at all, as it violates Federal Law. Administrative law rather than criminal law, but it is still law.

The OP might want to see if s/he can hook that Student Pilot up with someone who knows the law on these matters and can explain it correctly. In addition, the OP might want to let the aircraft owner (if that's someone other than the Student pilot in question) know what's going on, as this is no doubt a violation of the owner's insurance policy and would void all coverage in event of a mishap. And if you can't get the Student to stop doing this, you might consider informing the FSDO so they can take care of the matter before anyone gets hurt (physically or financially).

Also, given the situation, one wonders whether the CFI signing this Student's 90-day endorsements knows what's going on. If anything does happen, you may be sure the FAA will talk to every instructor whose signature is in the Student's logbook to find out what they taught the Student about the relevant regulations and whether the instructor had any idea this was going on. If you know who that instructor is, that might be a good first person to inform about what is going on.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
In addition, the OP might want to let the aircraft owner (if that's someone other than the Student pilot in question) know what's going on, as this is no doubt a violation of the owner's insurance policy and would void all coverage in event of a mishap.
Click to expand...

It would only void coverage if the owner knew what was happening (and the insurance company could prove it). Otherwise, it isn't any different for the insurance company than if the plane was stolen by a non-pilot.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
It would only void coverage if the owner knew what was happening (and the insurance company could prove it). Otherwise, it isn't any different for the insurance company than if the plane was stolen by a non-pilot.
Click to expand...
Maybe so, but I suspect the burden of proof will end up on the owner, and that may be a problem if folks at the airport know this is happening.
 
Unregistered said:
I’m observing something on a frequent basis that I wonder if it is legal.

A student pilot with another student pilot as passenger. When questioned he states that both are solo students and each could take the plane up alone.
The same student with a pilot rated passenger who has no medical and therefore cannot be PIC. ( The plane in non sport pilot qualified)

He’s a nice guy and does a lot of good work around the airpark but I think he’s sticking his neck out unless what he’s doing is legal.

I logged out because if someone does burn him I don't want to get blamed. I consider him a friend who has helped me many times.
Click to expand...

Sit your friend down and tell him what he is doing is illegal. Judge his reaction. If he does it again turn him in and tell him it was you.
 
Ron Levy said:
Maybe so, but I suspect the burden of proof will end up on the owner, and that may be a problem if folks at the airport know this is happening.
Click to expand...

I don't believe either student pilot meets the open pilot warrantee of the insurance policy.

I'm thinking that some one board must be at least a pilot, for the insurance to be in effect.
 
no frikking way is that kosher. the owner is at risk.....as there is no insurance for an illegal operation. Inform the OWNER.
 
The student pilot IS the owner. He has been talked to and denies doing anything wrong.
He is one hell of a nice guy and has helped me and the airpark in a hundred different ways.

He is a very long term student (years and years) and seems a competent pilot--just never took the check ride.

I can't bring myself to drop the dime on him.

Perhaps an unsigned letter warning him the FSDO will be called the next time he is observed with a passenger.???
 
Tom-D said:
I don't believe either student pilot meets the open pilot warrantee of the insurance policy.

I'm thinking that some one board must be at least a pilot, for the insurance to be in effect.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking it depends on the policy. I know plenty of people who have insurance policies allowing a Student Pilot to solo the plane -- some being Student Pilots who own the plane in which they are training. Plenty of flight schools have such policies, too.
 
Unregistered said:
The student pilot IS the owner. He has been talked to and denies doing anything wrong.
Click to expand...
Talked to by whom?

He is one hell of a nice guy and has helped me and the airpark in a hundred different ways.
Click to expand...
Doesn't change the illegality of what he's doing.

He is a very long term student (years and years) and seems a competent pilot--just never took the check ride.
Click to expand...
Probably doesn't have insurance, then, because insurance companies are very reluctant to insure someone who's been a Student for more than a couple of years or has more than 200 hours or so. Their concern is that there are competency reasons why the Student has declined to do the practical test.

I can't bring myself to drop the dime on him.
Click to expand...
Then why did you ask what to do if you weren't going to do it? If he's been talked to but continues to deny reality, what do you think we could suggest short of calling the FSDO?

Perhaps an unsigned letter warning him the FSDO will be called the next time he is observed with a passenger.???
Click to expand...
You can try that if you want. But is that a threat on which you're willing to carry through?
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm thinking it depends on the policy. I know plenty of people who have insurance policies allowing a Student Pilot to solo the plane -- some being Student Pilots who own the plane in which they are training. Plenty of flight schools have such policies, too.
Click to expand...
I've had those policies too, they all read that there must be a legal pilot flying. solo student pilots are legal.
 
Unregistered said:
The student pilot IS the owner. He has been talked to and denies doing anything wrong.
He is one hell of a nice guy and has helped me and the airpark in a hundred different ways.

He is a very long term student (years and years) and seems a competent pilot--just never took the check ride.

I can't bring myself to drop the dime on him.

Perhaps an unsigned letter warning him the FSDO will be called the next time he is observed with a passenger.???
Click to expand...

Perhaps a letter now to the FSDO.

There are rules and there are procedures to follow. If he does not then by definition he is not a competent pilot.

Nice guy or not - if you don't stop him neither are you.

Harsh.

If this is just a troll - don't you have better things to do than make up stupid scenarios for which the right answer is obvious?
 
Maybe have a brief talk with his pax, tell him it's illegal and for a good reason, perhaps your friend will lesson to him?
 
It's always amazed me how many people just can't seem to understand what "solo" means.
 
Unregistered said:
( The plane in non sport pilot qualified)
Click to expand...

I take it you mean the plane is not Light Sport or Light Sport compliant, meaning it can not be flown by a Sport Pilot or a pilot with higher rating flying on sport pilot privileges.

He’s a nice guy and does a lot of good work around the airpark but I think he’s sticking his neck out unless what he’s doing is legal.
Click to expand...

This brings up to me the question of where is he flying - is it a public or public use airport? If he has an accident or incident on the airport, is the airport going to get sued (well, I suppose they will get sued - everyone sues everyone - but are they in danger of being found liable)? Does the airport require they be a named insured on the pilot's insurance policy?

I logged out because if someone does burn him I don't want to get blamed. I consider him a friend who has helped me many times.
Click to expand...

So, what do we do about this? MOOB? Does he harm anyone or anything? Do we have a legal or moral obligation to turn him in? Would you turn in your neighbor if you saw him run the stop sign at the end of your street all the time?

Do you know he has a student license, or are you going on his word? Do you know if he has a medical?

Is it possible that the OP is more desirous of easing his own discomfort than getting the pilot to "fly right"?
 
jnmeade said:
So, what do we do about this? MOOB? Does he harm anyone or anything? Do we have a legal or moral obligation to turn him in? Would you turn in your neighbor if you saw him run the stop sign at the end of your street all the time?
Click to expand...
If kids crossed there regularly, you bet I would. The issue is safety. And in this case, if a Student Pilot really is taking passengers, then under our legal standards, the passengers require protection from the uncertainty of that pilot's skill/proficiency. Or were you one of those who closed his window and went back to watching TV when Kitty Genovese was calling for help?
 
> Nice guy

Nice guys don't put others at unnecessary risk and make goofy rationalizations to
accommodate their illegal ops.

>> Then why did you ask what to do if you weren't going to do it?

+ 1

>> If he's been talked to but continues to deny reality, what do you
>> think we could suggest short of calling the FSDO?

OP,

Man up. Drop a dime on this clown. You/we don't need him in our lives. Seriously.

I'm also curious about:

- The aircraft logs/maintenance.
- "Current" CFI sign-offs for solo?
- "Current" medical?

What the heck else has he rationalized?
 
Last edited:
FYI, the presumptive sanction for a student pilot carrying passengers is revocation under FAA Order 2150.3.

I would talk to the CFI to see if the CFI can get through to him before the FAA does.
 
Last edited:
PPC1052 said:
FYI, the presumptive sanction for a student pilot carrying passengers is revocation under FAA Order 2150.3.

I would talk to the CFI to see if the CFI can get through to him before the FAA does.
Click to expand...

Student pilot owns the plane. Why does he need a student pilot license? If the guy flies close to PP standards let him be.
 
Ron Levy said:
If kids crossed there regularly, you bet I would. The issue is safety. And in this case, if a Student Pilot really is taking passengers, then under our legal standards, the passengers require protection from the uncertainty of that pilot's skill/proficiency. Or were you one of those who closed his window and went back to watching TV when Kitty Genovese was calling for help?
Click to expand...
Kitty Genovese? Really?

Anyway, I'm wondering if there is even a CFI involved. With this student pilots disregard for regulation why bother with a 90 day endorsement.

I'd be straight and let them know it's bad for the aviation community, ask if there is anything I could do to help them get through the check ride (given your friendship), and most important that if I become aware of it happening again I'm going to escalate. I'd simply explain that if there were an investigation I'm unwilling to be an accomplice by complacency (Ron's point, just not sure we needed Kitty).

My 2 cents.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Student pilot owns the plane. Why does he need a student pilot license?
Click to expand...
Because it's the law? And the original question was whether or not what this Student Pilot was doing was legal?

If the guy flies close to PP standards let him be.
Click to expand...
Absent a demonstration of knowledge and skill on an FAA practical test before an authorized examiner, how does one know how good this pilot is? And if the PP PTS standards are the minimum to be considered safe enough to fly with passengers, how is "close" good enough for that? This ain't horseshoes, hand grenades, or nuclear weapons (and as a qualified nuclear weaponeer, I can tell you that "close" isn't always good enough even with nukes).
 
FlyerQ said:
Anyway, I'm wondering if there is even a CFI involved. With this student pilots disregard for regulation why bother with a 90 day endorsement.
Click to expand...
...in which case there can be no valid insurance, which has serious implications for the protection of passengers and third parties in the general public.
 
Because it is the law? Really? If we all acted that way no one would have a license anymore. Everytime one of these threads pops up I get the urge to rat out my fellow pilots for every witnessed indiscretion because they might be rats themselves. I think I will throw a pilot under the FSDO bus this weekend if I get the chance.
 
The other problem here is getting him through the oral and checkride so he's legal and a full member of the GA community. As someone who took years to get there, I know the frustration of getting the last 10% done. A heart-to-heart talk from a couple of pilots along with the offer of help might get him his certificate in a couple of months of solid work.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top