Left the master on...questions

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So I walked into the rental outfit a couple of days ago, and I was informed that I left the master on in one of the planes about a month and a half ago, depleting the battery overnight. I of course felt (and still feel) terrible, because I know how frustrating it is to have to scrub a flight because of the stupidity of another renter. In fact, I've gotten into a plane (at another flight school) where the previous renter forgot to shut off the master. Very frustrating. Also, more personally, this sort of forgetting to do something trivial like turning the master off makes me feel like a blithering idiot.

Anyway, they jumped it and thought all was well (the plane went out for that flight without a hitch), but apparently the next two renters couldn't fly it because even after running the plane, the battery wouldn't "hold its power." They grounded the plane and ordered a new battery, displacing a couple of other renters. From what I've been told so far, they're looking for me to "offset some of the cost" of the maintenance issue.

This is the first time anything like this has come up for me, so I'm turning to the wisdom of PoA for thoughts. Would it be normal for them to ask me to cover some or all of the lost rental costs from the other renters? Lost instruction time too? A percentage of it? Also, roughly how much money are we looking at maintenance-wise for parts and labor? Would they normally ask for me to cover all of it? Part of it? And then, is this what renter's insurance is for? Would I see my rates go up for filing a claim for this? I'm not excited to pay for this out of pocket, but if it would mean that my rates go skyrocketing, it might be a good idea?

They've just now started the conversation with me, so I don't have any cold hard numbers. I know that some of those questions might require more information, and I'm happy to provide what I know. I don't have any dollar values from them yet, because they still need to pull the invoices from the shop they use. Part of me says "yeah, of course I should be liable for everything. It only makes sense." But another part of me says that it took them well over a month to get back to me...surely it can't be THAT important to them. It doesn't seem all that fair for them to wait a month and a half and then gouge me...right? After all, the least they could do is let me know right away. Also, are there any questions I should be sure to ask them?

I'm not looking to pick a fight with them at all--I've been very happy with them so far, a very good outfit--but I just want to be sure it's fair to both of us. So I'm basically just looking for initial thoughts and words of advice at this point. I'll update as I know more.
 
You paid for the rental and you said you are sorry. Offer to pay a pro-rated amount for the battery replacement, in which case it had about 1% of its life left, so that would be about $2.Other students couldn't fly which is sad, and you should sympathize very strongly with their plight. Beyond that, do you think the next time you can't fly, they will offer to compensate you?
 
What does your rental agreement say?
Under normal terms the most (if any) you are liable for is a new battery and reasonable installation labor. However, I'd be surprised if you should be held liable for the full cost since a single drain of a battery shouldn't cause it to no longer hold a charge.
 
Normally if the battery is in good shape leaving the master on is not a big deal. Just charge it and go. Jump starting the plane and allowing the alternator to charge it is bad for the alternator and battery.

My vote is to do nothing,
 
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If leaving the master on overnight totally clobbered the battery to the point it won't keep a charge, it was on it's last legs already.
 
How do they know you left the master on? Anyone could have turned on the master abd failed to turn it off after your rental.
 
Under the law, it is possible for you to be held liable for all the costs to the owner of your negligent act, including loss of use of the aircraft. The terms of your rental agreement may or may not address this, so take a look at what it says, and if you need help understanding it, have your attorney help you with it. In any event, if you agree to pay for the battery replacement in return for release of all other claims, you may find they are willing to accept that, and personally I think that's a reasonable compromise.

And yes, with certain types of batteries, even just one time leaving it on until it drains to zero can permanently damage the battery.
 
Seriously, tell them you will pay a prorated cost for the battery. Find out how old was the battery and brand. Make sure they don't charge you a prorated list price as it will be double the regular price (look up the battery in Spruce). Do NOT pay for the loss of use. When I went through training (looong time ago) I don't know how many times the school canceled a flight for one reason or another. Did they ever offer to pay me? Hell no, and I bet they still don't. If they don't like it, rent somewhere else.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If leaving the master on overnight totally clobbered the battery to the point it won't keep a charge, it was on it's last legs already.
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X2

If that killed the battery, you did them a favor and put it out of it's misery at their home drome vs some distant location.

I wouldn't pay for it.

A few years back I was camping out with my plane, we got to setting the tent up later then we should have, used my taxi and landing lights to help set the tent up, took a little while to get it all sorted.

The next day we found that the 12v concord gell cell was dead, hand propped the plane, flew home, put it on the trickle charger and it was right as rain.


Also I've been a big fan of always leaving the beacon on (if equipped) as it's easy to see if you left the master on that way.
 
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An aircraft battery is not like others - if it goes dead you simply check the electrolyte and charge it back up. If it does not charge back up - then the battery was no good when it was left on. Ask the mechanic about it - what would be the fairest is that you pay the 30 min of labor it takes to replace the battery . . .. $30.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Also I've been a big fan of always leaving the beacon on (if equipped) as it's easy to see if you left the master on that way.
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That helps, but only if you look back as you walk away. Proper checklists have "Master Off" on them, as well as "Mags Off," another critical task.
The pilot has to get into the habit of double-checking stuff like that.

I bet that battery was several years old and had thousands of starts on it. Draining it by leaving the master on does damage even a new battery, and if it happens enough it ruins it. I looked after several flight-school airplanes for some years, and it was always a problem.

Dan
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Also I've been a big fan of always leaving the beacon on (if equipped) as it's easy to see if you left the master on that way.
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The sound of spinning gyros as you collect your stuff, log Hobbs time, and secure the airplane should be a dead giveaway as well.

Of course, that only works if the airport isn't continuously and ridiculously noisy. But even KOAK with idling jets nearby isn't too loud for that (did that last weekend).

I tend to agree that a single deep discharge did not do this battery in by itself.

Many rental agreements have a clause about a $50 charge or somesuch for each time the master is left on, presumably to defray the cost and annoyance of hauling out the ground power cart. Mine doesn't, and somehow the masters aren't left on very often -- I've only seen it in the squawks three times in as many years, and I've never encountered an airplane with it left on myself.

When I flooded the Cardinal's engine because the aux pump didn't show up on the fuel flow gauge, and then drained the battery cranking for the subsequent flooded start, the FBO came and jumped it. The next day, someone else used the aircraft, and complained that the battery hadn't held charge after a short cross-country followed by a few hours at the remote airport, despite a working charging system. I suspect I saw the same problem, only not as bad. I wasn't charged for that battery. Which is good because I don't think I killed it.
 
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"How's it feel to want? You're in the business of renting planes, this is part of that business." If they would have charged the battery properly rather than jumping it off the first time, it would have been fine. If the battery now will not hold a charge, it was junk to begin with, running a battery down will not harm it. Pay for 20 minutes worth of maintenance time and a couple kilowatts of electricity since that's what your mistake should have cost.
 
Ditto on the pro-rated share of a new battery. No more....or else look elsewhere to rent.
 
A lot of flight schools have a set cost for leaving the master on.I was taught to leave the strobe or rotating beacon on,so that if the master is left on everyone will notice.as to loss of revenue most flight schools have back up battery's for just that reason.
 
Why are they waiting until now to tell you? If they had a case, it should have been the same day or perhaps the next day, if you returned it after hours.

It is not normal to be asked to pay. It happens. If its really a problem, they could add a provision to the contract that assesses a $100 fee for leaving the master on and depleting the battery. I'm sure that would pay for a battery many times over.
 
Brad Z said:
Why are they waiting until now to tell you? If they had a case, it should have been the same day or perhaps the next day, if you returned it after hours.
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This was my first thought...I am in the rental business...our customers would laugh if we told them a month and a half later that they returned an item broken. We are strict on staff to check the item in and inform the customer ASAP in the case of any damage or other issues.

In my view, waiting so long really makes any claim almost moot.
 
If I am in the aircraft rental business, then it is my responsibility to check the aircraft for security, damage, cleanliness or for a master on after every renter drives off. Don't pay a dime unless it is in writing. 45 days is ridiculous. Place a sticky note in your car that reminds you to check master. Now the second time...
 
Last place I rented from charged $50 for forgetting the master.

I've never known anyone who's run down the battery that way, so I don't know how the places around me would handle it for real.
 
If you damage a rental car, you are charged for the repairs and the loss of use. This is pretty common. Not everything equates the same, but they couldn't rent the plane when it was down for mx. Having said that, a battery is available within a day or maybe two. I don't know how big the loss of use would be but I suspect it's less than a few hours. Pay for the pro-rata share of the battery, and 30 min to install, and offer them $100 for good will cause you did take it out of service.

Mistakes have consequences, and there's no reason that others should suffer for my mistakes, I would pay it and take responsibility. If they are trying to bill you for $800 or something, then you would do well to leave and tell them to bill you for it.
 
Unregistered said:
So I walked into the rental outfit a couple of days ago, and I was informed that I left the master on in one of the planes about a month and a half ago, depleting the battery overnight.
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That's the nice thing about owning. No questions about who pays. ;)
 
My rental agreement just says, "Pilots who leave the master switch on will be charged for dead battery recharging." There's no specific price mentioned, probably by design, but it doesn't say will be responsible for lost revenue or battery replacement.
 
geneseib said:
That's the nice thing about owning. No questions about who pays. ;)
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Nor any question about the battery being dead or not, nor any question about if it should be replaced or not, nor any question about "jumping it off" or properly charging it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Under the law, it is possible for you to be held liable for all the costs to the owner of your negligent act, including loss of use of the aircraft. The terms of your rental agreement may or may not address this, so take a look at what it says, and if you need help understanding it, have your attorney help you with it. In any event, if you agree to pay for the battery replacement in return for release of all other claims, you may find they are willing to accept that, and personally I think that's a reasonable compromise.
.
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One can only imagine how you would go about handling a parking ticket. :rolleyes:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Late 2 party.

Leaving a master on and draining a lead acid battery significantly shortens its life.

Pay 1-200 bucks depending on how old the battery is.
 
docmirror said:
If you damage a rental car, you are charged for the repairs and the loss of use. This is pretty common. Not everything equates the same, but they couldn't rent the plane when it was down for mx. Having said that, a battery is available within a day or maybe two. I don't know how big the loss of use would be but I suspect it's less than a few hours. Pay for the pro-rata share of the battery, and 30 min to install, and offer them $100 for good will cause you did take it out of service.

Mistakes have consequences, and there's no reason that others should suffer for my mistakes, I would pay it and take responsibility. If they are trying to bill you for $800 or something, then you would do well to leave and tell them to bill you for it.
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If they want to charge $800, turn it over to your renters insurance.
 
I also suppose the flip side [which is how I hope I would react] is:

"Gee, I"m sorry I left the master on. What can I do to make it better for you?"

Puts the onus on the school then to act like buttheads - I suppose though that if you remembered you left the master on you would have gone back to turn it off . . . .
 
I now own, but when I rented the school I rented from had a stated policy, that if you left the master on and the battery needed to be recharged because it was dead there was a $75 charge. It was posted and was on the checkout sheet, next to the big bold letters reminding you to make sure you turned off the master.

A month and a half later they tell you this. I would tell them to go pound sand, and find a new FBO. If you are certain you did this, and they have no written policy, I would offer them some small amount of money(whatever you feel is appropriate) and make sure they know they have lost your continued business over this. If they have a written policy, and you signed it, well then I would suggest you are obligated to do whatever the policy you agreed to.

I cannot imagine it would take that long to replace a battery that they would lose any business. Flights are cancelled and rescheduled for all sorts of reasons. Thems are the breaks with flying.
 
Dan Thomas said:
That helps, but only if you look back as you walk away. Proper checklists have "Master Off" on them, as well as "Mags Off," another critical task.
The pilot has to get into the habit of double-checking stuff like that.

I bet that battery was several years old and had thousands of starts on it. Draining it by leaving the master on does damage even a new battery, and if it happens enough it ruins it. I looked after several flight-school airplanes for some years, and it was always a problem.

Dan
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Even if the pilot doesn't catch it the light, there is a good chance the office/other pilot will notice it. It's just another safety net beyond the checklists and common sense.
 
Due to the elapsed time, if this occurred to me, I would not feel obligated to pay for anything. I would question why the dead battery was not properly serviced, why you were not notified of the issue once it was brought to their attention and I would request to look at the log books and squawk sheet to determine the last time the battery was jump started, charged, tested or replaced. As a maintenance technician, battery replacement is a normal everyday occurrence. I believe I would chalk it up to the price of operating a FBO.
 
OP's back.

Thanks for the replies so far. Here's a little more information.

The aircraft in question is a relatively new Skycatcher (maybe 2 years old and 400ish hours TT). I can't find the exact battery model, but I have seen references to it being a smaller than normal battery. Anyone familiar with the Skycatcher have any info?

I reviewed the rental agreement (no need for the lawyer :)), and it says simply that I'm responsible for any damage that occurs. There's a $1000 deductible and then I'm off the hook. I can't imagine this issue getting up that high, so I don't think that even matters. I saw no mention of compensating them for lost flight time, so I can't imagine that they'll ask for that...and if they do, I'll take serious issue with it. And I will definitely mention the pro rata share of the battery. Also the time it took them to tell me about it.

I don't know for 100% sure that it was me, but it would be hard for it not to have been. All the planes are locked, so someone would have had to get the key and go drain it or break in. If it was me, I can tell you exactly what happened. I shut everything off per the checklists, but forgot to get the hobbs, which on the G300 is in the engine screen on the PFD. I was wearing polarized sunglasses, which doesn't cause any issues when looking at the display straight on, but from an angle (standing outside the plane getting the hobbs), the display looks dark. I took off my sunglasses to see the screen, but I put them back on before I recorded the hobbs. When I looked at the seemingly blank screen, I figured I had shut the master off, but it was actually on. And of course, on the G300, the PFD comes on without making any whirring noises--the avionics cooling fan comes on only when you turn on the avionics master. If any of you cared to know...

I'm going to email them back tonight to get more info and basically ask what specifically they're expecting of me. Can you think of any other questions I should be asking them?

I've probably forgotten something I was going to say, but I'll remember at some point and post again.
 
2 year old batt, I'd say you owe about half of the price of a new one, plus the install time at a min.

As for the lost flight time, your actions were directly causative but if you don't want to pony up that fits right in with the new generation. The FBO lost maybe $100 or so, several others were inconvenienced due to your actions, but I guess tough shyte. Just jack up the hourly rate to cover for lack of responsibility by renters.
 
timwinters said:
Priced an aircraft battery lately?
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Yes. For mine it's about $268, shipped. Installation is about 15 minutes.

If a battery croaks after the first $100 fee was assssed, either the battery was defective or on its last legs. A decent battery should handle three full discharge events.
 
I'd agree that it would be fair for you to pay for the pro-rated cost of a new battery. But why is the FBO dispatching an unairworthy aircraft to customers? Instructions for Continued Airworthiness for both Gill and Concord batteries prohibit jump starting and flying a discharged battery, since batteries are certified with a minimum reserve capacity for emergency operations.
 
docmirror said:
2 year old batt, I'd say you owe about half of the price of a new one, plus the install time at a min.

As for the lost flight time, your actions were directly causative but if you don't want to pony up that fits right in with the new generation. The FBO lost maybe $100 or so, several others were inconvenienced due to your actions, but I guess tough shyte. Just jack up the hourly rate to cover for lack of responsibility by renters.
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I think that's on the harsh side. I would expect the owner of a rental business to have things like batteries and general consumables readily available for quick repairs. That kind of stuff should be expected and planned for and down time should have been the 15 minutes it takes to swap in a new battery.
 
If this is a legitimate operation, there should have been no (meaningful) down time. Flight school at which I trained always had a couple of charged batteries ready to swap into aircraft in the (inevitable) event of a master being accidentally left on. It happens.

If one discharge cycle rendered the battery tast, it was nearly done anyway. Bet it was a Gill.

Maybe charge you a C-note to cover diagnosis and swap, but buy a battery or charge for lost rentals? They failed to mitigate, and that is not your charge.
 
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