LED replacements for these C150G wingtip position lights?

Pedals2Paddles

Pedals2Paddles

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Pedals2Paddles
This new-to-me C150G has these wingtip position lights. I'm trying to find an LED replacement for them. But I can't find anything of the same shape that fits this wingtip. Pictures attached. All the LED wingtip lights seem to be designed for use without this fairing that is behind the light.

The closest I could find is this, which may be the one. It just looks too small, but I could be wrong.
http://www.whelen.com/aviation/product.php?head_id=10&prod_id=141

I would much rather add ACLs and use this, but clearly this wingtip will not support that. Perhaps a different wingtip would be more accommodating?
http://www.whelen.com/aviation/product.php?head_id=10&prod_id=161
 

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Any A&P can modify the wing tip to use any of the common LED lights, such as Whelen. It's a straight forward fiberglass operation.

I've never seen tips like that on a cherokee, very interesting.
 
Is there information somewhere on doing fiberglass work myself? We're all quite handy if there are instructions for doing it properly.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Is there information somewhere on doing fiberglass work myself? We're all quite handy if there are instructions for doing it properly.
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Oddly enough, details on fiberglass work is in the Piper Service manual. I fixed the fiberglass tailcone on my cherokee without much effort. The engine cowl really needs work but there's too much for me to work on because I don't have a work area large enough. And it would also require repainting the entire cowl.
 
Except.... this is a Cessna 150G, not a piper.

Those replacement bulbs are enticing. Might do that. But I really want to add wingtip LED ACLs.
 
You can talk to the owner of PSA on the phone. Very personable and talkative fellow. I have a tail LED nav on my plane and if you turn it off/then on again it will flash like a baby strobe. Its pretty cool.

I also had PSA LED's in my wingtip that were a direct replacement for my nav bulbs and they worked great. The new paddle type are supposed to be silent (very important) and brighter. I even lined the socket with bright silver plastic (lexan?) to increase the reflectivity.

Unfortunately you cannot really trust what Whelen tells you to buy at least in the catalogue. You're better to try to talk to someone but even then in our old birds it is a crap shoot. Fortunately they will work with you if you buy the wrong bulb.

PSA on the other hand will tell you exactly what you need for your application and get it right the first time.
 
I had a burnt out tail light on my Warrior, replace with a PSA bulb/paddle light. I recently went to LED Whelen landing lights too, my draw is way down.
 
When you say silent, I assume you mean RFI? Are the older model LEDs noisy?
 
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Pedals2Paddles said:
When you say silent, I assume you mean RFI? Are the older model LEDs noisy?
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Yes, the guy at PSA will speak at length about RFI. Everything comes from China and not all of it was acceptable to him which would slow down his time to market as he would test and then reject some LED lights he'd get.

My flashy LED tail nav is a bit noisy but IIRC, PSA's bulb requires slight modification to the external flange that holds the cover on so that more of it is exposed. He might have come up with a different/better solution but I didn't want to make any mods to the part so I live with a little background noise in my headset. This is on a '66 172 just FYI.
 
Here's a vid for the paddles and his version of the strobe/nav light. Do a youtube search for PSA Enterprises and you'll see what I mean about the retainer kind of concealing the base (strobing) part of the bulb. At night it doesn't appear to effect its visibility much?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGPJfBmloH8

Here's the website for all his lights though you might call him to see what else he's working on.
http://psaenterprises.com/LED-s-c-563/

I have talked to him at length in the past, though I am no lighting expert, and I have purchased some of this bulbs. Other than that I have no relationship with PSA Enterprises, just a content customer.
 
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You are ALL missing the PERFECT solution. I bought these at Oshkosh last year, met the inventor, great guy. Invented them in his garage, PMA'd and WAY brighter than anything I've every seen (damn near have to turn them off in IMC) and they offer a strobe mode as a bonus for better visibility on the ramp on fog.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/navstrobesextant.php

I get compliments and questions every time I fly, don't delay, buy them now! Kit includes absolutely everything. You will NOT regret it!
 
JSumeracki said:
You are ALL missing the PERFECT solution. I bought these at Oshkosh last year, met the inventor, great guy. Invented them in his garage, PMA'd and WAY brighter than anything I've every seen (damn near have to turn them off in IMC) and they offer a strobe mode as a bonus for better visibility on the ramp on fog.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/navstrobesextant.php

I get compliments and questions every time I fly, don't delay, buy them now! Kit includes absolutely everything. You will NOT regret it!
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Hate to wade into this again but where's the PMA for these? Spruce notes they're not PMA'd (PMA pending) and I couldn't find it on the manufacturer's website.
 
baboss said:
Hate to wade into this again but where's the PMA for these? Spruce notes they're not PMA'd (PMA pending) and I couldn't find it on the manufacturer's website.
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Does this mean it will immediately fall out of the sky?
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Does this mean it will immediately fall out of the sky?
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Yes, of course it does :rolleyes:
Just wanted to correct the misinformation that these are PMA'd. From what I can tell they are NOT. For some that makes a difference.
It's between you & your mechanic if you want to install them on a certified aircraft. You also get to deal with any consequences of that.
 
murphey said:
The engine cowl really needs work but there's too much for me to work on because I don't have a work area large enough. And it would also require repainting the entire cowl.
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PM me in piper mag there is a ad for a guy in Lincoln NE that specializes in piper cowls ...he has done two for me ..one should've been in the garbage can and it looks brand-new...very fair pricing and professional paint work included
 
I've had several conversations with the FAA about this subject in the past couple months. For some reason, the FAA in general is very adamant about NOT using any LED replacements that are not PMA'd or STC'd. Our FSDO will not approve any field approvals and since there is no PMA, an A&P cannot install them with a logbook entry. This goes for complete assemblies as well as the plug-in bulbs.

That said, I know of several individual aircraft owners who have replaced their plug-in bulbs with these LED bulbs and not even made a logbook entry. Their planes are still flying and nobody has said anything bad about them.

Bottom line, check with your local FSDO before you do anything. Your mileage may vary.
 
Is the FSDO out patrolling for someone who might a better product without a PMA installed? I've always wondered what the implications are for an owner that does something like this. Is someone doing a ramp check going to say "hey you can't takeoff because you have those lightbulbs in there!" Or is only a problem if the aircraft needs service that would require an A&P to sign on off the lights?
 
I hear the criminal element is out there carrying handguns without a permit, or FOID card in IL. I wonder what they would think about a bulb without a PMA for aircraft use? I hear some even have illegal drugs.

I'm not even discounting the importance of compatible aircraft parts, just saying.
 
There are several threads on the Cessna 150-152 Club Web site about LED replacements for the wingtip position lights. Jump over there and take a look.
 
None of the direct replacement LED's are legal. Not in any way, shape or form. If you want LED you are stuck with Whelen, or with AeroLed's.

Some inspectors are aware of these non-PMA'd or non-STC'd lights getting installed. They will be looking for them on ramp checks, and then the fun will begin. For the pilot that flew the plane, and for the IA who signed off the last annual.

Violations can result in suspensions, (30 days for a private pilot, 120 for an A&P, probably 180 or more for an IA) or a $500 civil penalty, for each flight.

Doesn't matter whether it's a light bulb or a crankshaft. If it's not certified you can't use it on a Type Certificated plane.
 
philiplane said:
None of the direct replacement LED's are legal. Not in any way, shape or form. If you want LED you are stuck with Whelen, or with AeroLed's.

Some inspectors are aware of these non-PMA'd or non-STC'd lights getting installed. They will be looking for them on ramp checks, and then the fun will begin. For the pilot that flew the plane, and for the IA who signed off the last annual.

Violations can result in suspensions, (30 days for a private pilot, 120 for an A&P, probably 180 or more for an IA) or a $500 civil penalty, for each flight.

Doesn't matter whether it's a light bulb or a crankshaft. If it's not certified you can't use it on a Type Certificated plane.
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Please cite where this is documented as the law. Thanks.
 
craigvince said:
I've had several conversations with the FAA about this subject in the past couple months. For some reason, the FAA in general is very adamant about NOT using any LED replacements that are not PMA'd or STC'd. Our FSDO will not approve any field approvals and since there is no PMA, an A&P cannot install them with a logbook entry. This goes for complete assemblies as well as the plug-in bulbs.

That said, I know of several individual aircraft owners who have replaced their plug-in bulbs with these LED bulbs and not even made a logbook entry. Their planes are still flying and nobody has said anything bad about them.

Bottom line, check with your local FSDO before you do anything. Your mileage may vary.
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Where it may become a serious problem is taking a CFI checkride in an airplane with non-PMA lights. The examiner can legally declare the airplane unairworthy. The solution is to use a different airplane...

I still don't understand why lightbulbs have to be PMA'd....but again, remember the Q4509 lightbulb issue? $pittance at the local auto/farm shop, $many for the exact same bulb with PMA.
 
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Keep the old super special approved PMA TSO MOP FAA FBI FBO AP Certified piece of crap incandescent inferior garbage bulbs and lenses in the glove box I guess. That way if someone has a stick up their ass about using a far superior, brighter, more effective, safer product, you can swap the old garbage back in to make them happy for a few minutes.

:mad2:
 
here ya go:

First, the company does not have any FAA approvals to produce aircraft parts. Because nav lights are required by regulation and the reg specifies TSO-C30c as the basis, any lamp you use must be conform to the TSO. Which means the company has to apply for evaluation of their product, pass the tests, be granted a PMA to produce them, and then mark them with the TSO number, FAA approval, and so on. 14CFR Part 45 requires marking of parts.

From the FAA: Who Needs A PMA?
a. General Requirements. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) § 21.303(a) requires any person producing replacement or modification parts for sale for installation on a type-certificated product to get a PMA. A PMA is a combined design and production approval for replacement parts. Also we may use a PMA for the production of modification parts from supplemental type certificates (STC). The prior STC approves the design and installation of these modification parts in products. However, if any replacement part alters a product by introducing a major change, then 14 CFR § 21.113 requires an STC for the approval of these parts. See FAA Order 8110.4, Type Certification, for STC procedures.

Now on the NavStrobe lamps, using the strobe feature at night turns OFF the nav function, so now you don't have required position lights. That's a violation of 91.205c, which applies to all aircraft, experimentals included.

LED's are NOT standard parts because LED's have no standard to conform to. They have the same Fit as the lamp they replace, but (in the case of Navstrobe) they have a different Function because they combine nav and strobe features. The Form is different too because they don't use the same enclosure as the 7512 lamp they are intended to replace. No LED's to date have been approved as stand alone replacement parts, because they can't directly replace an incandescent for many reasons. One of them is RFI emissions, which several people have already complained about messing up their radios.

I've had several customers ask me to install them, and I have to decline until the manufacturer can produce a PMA or an STC for these.
I've already talked with the NavStrobe manufacturer and he said they are applying for a Canadian PMA. That may take weeks, months, or years to obtain.

FWIW, people keep mentioning the lowly 4509 landing light as an example of a "non-PMA'd" part, but, sorry, the 4509 was originally produced by GE, and they have a PMA for aircraft lamps. There are others making the same lamp, without a PMA, and those are not eligible for aircraft use.

I agree that LED's should be easier to install on TC'd planes, but for a variety of reasons, they aren't right now. I have been a pioneer of HID and LED light installations under Field Approvals and STC's. My work got HID STC's on the Cessna 550 Citation series. So I know what I'm talking about.

Also FWIW, the LED lamps that Spruce sells as drop ins for the 7512 fall apart after a few hundred hours of operation. I have lots of photos of those coming apart. Chinese POS. Here they are: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hb0t176wsxc3wv2/F7NzPcmqss
 
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philiplane said:
here ya go:

First, the company does not have any FAA approvals to produce aircraft parts. Because nav lights are required by regulation and the reg specifies TSO-C30c as the basis, s
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Here ya go. Can you quote chapter and verse for the nav light requirement for TSO? Since nav lights were required WAY before TSO, how do you reconcile the requiremens for nav light for a Staggerwing Beech to the current TSO?
 
I'll have to look up my old CAR reference material for the legacy airplanes, but Part 23 aircraft are governed by 14CFR 23.1397:

"e. Color and Intensity specifications. The chromaticity coordinates contained in AS 8037, paragraph 3.3.1 for aviation red, green, and white provide an equivalent level of safety to those specified in Section .1397 of FAR Parts 23, 25, 27, and 29. For national and international standardization these coordinates have been made identical to the existing International Civil Aviation Organization requirements. This also applies to specifying intensity in terms of “candles” in AS 8037 as opposed to “candles” in Sections .1391 and .1395 of FAR Parts 23, 25, 27, and 29. In practical application all existing aircraft position light installations meet both the TSO and FAR requirements."

These specifications are found in TSO C30c. The TSO is not specifically called out in .1397, but in order to meet the minimum performance standards for aircraft lighting, a manufacturer will buy them from a TSO holder. This particular TSO calls out the DO-160 RFI testing to ensure that lights do not interfere with navigation equipment. This is the hardest part of the lighting tests and it's where HID and LED technology runs into problems. Not insurmountable, but it takes a bit of money to do it, and that's why Whelen charges more for their lights, and why the experimental companies charge a whole lot less. They just make it and sell it, buyer beware.

And back to CAR 3 standards:

CAR 3.18a requires all aircraft component parts to be constructed IAW the drawings submitted as part of the original Type Certificate. Those drawings would describe the position lights of CAR 3.700, and the landing light of CAR 3.698. These drawings evolved into TSO's during the later CAR years and into the FAA years in 1968. Grimes made most of the early aviation lighting, and those became adopted as the standard, and later those same lights were issued TSO approval. Sort of a backwards compatible regulation.
 
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I move we split "Maintenance Bay" into two parts ...

People who want to try to force the current FARs (and past CARs) onto today's aircraft where the just won't fit without a tremendous amount of time and money ...

and ...

A forum for advising current owners of light single engine aircraft how to maintain and modify their aircraft with modern devices (lights, radios, etc.) with a liberal interpretation of current regs and with an eye to what is actually happening in the real world.

NO CROSSPOSTING.

I promise not to post in the former. I'll recommend a list for those requested not to post in the latter.

THanks,

Jim
 
You can entitle the latter section "Logic and Reason"
 
You can't talk about reason when you talk regulations.

You're shooting the messenger.

The FAA is the source of the problem. They have created a hodgepodge of regulations, and no easy process to introduce new technology. And they expect mechanics to navigate the minefield, while dealing with owners who love to do anything they want to their planes all year long, and then expect some unwitting IA to sign it off each year. After all, with the IA's stamp, anything that's not right is HIS problem, not the owner's. The IA has bought the entire history of the plane with his one signature.

However, the fact remains that a Cessna 150 cannot have LED lights installed without either a Field Approval or an STC. The plane was originally certified under CAR 3 and that is the basis. There were no LED's in those days, so you know an LED found on one of these planes today was not an OEM product. Once the plane leaves the factory, the plane is required to conform to it's Type Certificate, or properly Altered Condition. This is where it gets fun. What exactly is properly altered? It is a combination of minor Alterations, Major Alterations, and STCs. All of those changes require reference to Approved Data, or Approval of Data. Mechanics can only make Alterations with reference to Approved Data. They can't approve Data, and they can't approve parts.

Changing a light bulb with an equivalent part is routine maintenance, with a logbook entry. Installing an LED lamp from China is what? It's not an equivalent part, and it does not come with an STC. Does it meet the color requirements, field of view, and brightness specs of the original lamp? How do you know, since it hasn't been tested? Will it produce RFI that drowns out your radio transmissions? How do you know, it hasn't been tested? This is exactly why there is an approval process. If it's such a great product, why don't these companies just get a PMA and start selling lamps by the thousands?

As for applicability, in many cases there is no direct linkage between early CAR regs and later FAA regs. But in today's environment of over powerful and under intelligent government employees, will you bet your certificates on whether or not your alterations are legal?
 
What I read (from your post above) is that the position lights must meet those specifications for color and intensity. What I do not see is anything that says the light has to have a some kind of individual certification on a per product basis.

I'm not arguing that it does or doesn't. I'm just trying to establish one way or another. There is a lot of "you can't do that" floating around the industry, which is all based entirely on false rumors and notes written on a napkin.
 
CAR 3 planes present a unique problem when installing newer equipment. Although CAR3 planes were certified under a looser standard, any parts made today are subject to FAA standards because the CAA no longer exists. Current production parts fall under 14CFR Part 21 rules. Which is where the PMA standard applies. To make and sell parts for aircraft, you have to comply with Part 21. It doesn't matter what plane it's going on. If the plane has a Type Certificate, issued under CAR 3 or Part 23, the parts (produced today) comply with Part 21. When you go to Part 21, the message is clear, as I posted earlier: Part 21.303a requires any person producing replacement or modification parts for sale for installation on a type-certificated product to get a PMA. It's black and white, no argument, no gray area. It does not differentiate between Certification Basis.

Even though there may not be direct linkage of previous rules to new ones, there is too much case history and too many STC's issued for a variety of equipment installed on both CAR3 and Part 23 planes to argue for looser standards now for the earlier planes. The best you can hope is that it is addressed in the upcoming Part 23 rewrite.

And when you operate any aircraft today, you are bound to the current rules, not the historical ones.

FWIW- Posted on Mooneyspace in January 2014:

"Just talked by phone with Chris from Navstrobelighting- He says-

NO, they are not legal yet on certified aircraft.

He has filed all the papers to make them compliant but no word back from the FAA yet

NO they are NOT "Standard Parts" as described in the AC as there are no Standard Part Designs Approved for LED Lights YET. FAA say they are 2 to 3 years away from that.

He says that he uses "standard parts" in his adds in a very "liberal" sense? It's up to who ever installs them to make sure they are acceptable.

SO, for those who have them installed, you need to make sure they are acceptable to your local FAA FSDO office or else remove them and install the original bulbs. You don't want a violation if seen by our "friends".

I hope this clears up any confusion. "
 
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Except everything you cited applies to the people and companies that manufacturer the parts or sell the parts. But what about me, Joe blow owner. I don't manufacture or sell anything. Where does it say I cannot install a light bulb that doesn't meet XZ specifications? It seems like the law says you can't make or sell it. But seems to assume it therefore must not exist.
 
This is the best part. Virtually none of the FAA regs give you specific allowances. They are written in the negative, such as "no person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition". Airworthy condition means the aircraft is in conformity with it's Type Certificate, or Properly Altered Condition, and, is in a condition for safe operation.

Conformity with the Type Certificate means it has all the equipment as described in the original documents submitted to the FAA during certification. Properly Altered condition means any replacement parts are parts approved for installation on Type Certificated aircraft via the TSO, PMA, or STC processes.

The operator of the aircraft is ultimately responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft. Not the mechanic, not the IA, but the operator. That can mean either the pilot in the case of a private aircraft, or the Responsible Person as defined in Part 119, and 121, 135, etc. Bluntly put, your mechanic can install bogus parts, and when you fly it, you are responsible. See 91.7 for that. It's part of the responsibility that comes with your authority as Pilot In Command.

So if you install an Unapproved Part, and then fly the plane, you are responsible for the outcome. You'll find that in 14CFR Part 91.7. And 91.207 requires you to have position lights for night operations. Moving on, changing a lamp or installing an upgrade is covered by 91 Subpart E, 91.401, 91.407, 91.417, and when altered, Parts 43.7, 43.9, and 43.11 apply. Those records have to be made by a person authorized under 43.7, which is an A&P or IA depending on the alteration made. (Major or Minor)

Here is where they get you:

§43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.

(b) Each person maintaining or altering, or performing preventive maintenance, shall do that work in such a manner and use materials of such a quality, that the condition of the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance worked on will be at least equal to its original or properly altered condition (with regard to aerodynamic function, structural strength, resistance to vibration and deterioration, and other qualities affecting airworthiness).

Lastly, Part 1 definitions call out what constitutes a Major Alteration:

Major alteration means an alteration not listed in the aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller specifications—

(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness;

Altering required external lighting is considered to be affecting airworthiness. That is what the ACO held me to when developing HID lighting for the Cessna Citation jets. (In addition to the RFI tests, durability, field of view, heat and electrical loads, etc.)

The "other qualities affecting airworthiness" is the FAA maintenance side's version of the FAA operation's side calling every pilot deviation "careless and reckless".

All over a stinking light bulb...
 
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I guess that round about covers it.

Which leads back to, keep the old ones in the glove box. In my opinion, the brighter LEDs are more reliable, more likely to function (not burn out), are brighter, and more effective. If someone really has a stick up their ass about it, I'll put the old ones back in to make them happy. But for every other day, I will take something that is more effective and safer over a bureaucracy.

Clariification, I'm talking LEDs for night position. Not going to debate the flashing and strobing ones since those a whole other topic. One could argue they are a safety add for daytime, but it's also asking for negative attention.
 
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