Learning to Fly a Tail Dragger!

[shippjean]

In all honesty how many of you out there are interested in flying a tailwheel airplane. I work for a flight school at PTK and we are attempting to market our Citabria for rental and training, we are trying all kinds of marketing techniques, but we haven't gotten much response...so do people really want to learn to fly conventional gear airplanes? or is there just not enough known about them to see the attraction? or are people just content with the standard nose wheel?

Please let me know your thoughts!


Thanks,
Jeannie

 

[Ken Ibold]

When I learned to fly a taildragger in 2000, after 12 years of nose dragging, I thought it was great. I sold my airplane and bought a factory new 7GCAA. After a year of keeping it to myself I put it in leaseback at the local flight school, which had virtually all new airplanes. After a bit of fudging around getting instructors tailwheel qualified, we put it on the line. Renters flew the wings off it for the first couple of months, and then the curiosity factor was sated and it flew about 12 hours a month after that -- certainly not enough to pay for the fleet insurance policy -- and I took it off leaseback. The flight school tried selling the acro, tailwheel transition, grass ops, unusual attitudes etc. The only thing that seemed to have some legs was spin training for flight instructors.

IMO there are a lot of people who are curious or interested in it, but after the novelty wears off they're not willing to pay for the experience.

However, Rich Stowell manages nicely.

 

[gprellwitz]

When we're in Alaska in August, one of the things on our list to do is get the tailwheel endorsement. We have a 7AC on the line at Clow. I don't know how much it gets used, though. For me, there are serious W&B issues with it.

 

[steingar]

I'd love to, but without owning one of the things (can't afford it) the currency would quickly wear off and I'd be no better than before. If I am in a situation where I can fly one on a repeating basis I may change my mind.

 

[gibbons]

IMO there are a lot of people who are curious or interested in it, but after the novelty wears off they're not willing to pay for the experience.

Bingo!! Your insight astounds me.

 

[rottydaddy]

As far as I can tell, the best prospects for making money with a Citabria would be aerobatic training and tailwheel add-ons for the "going to buy/build an LSA soon" crowd.
But PTK might just not be a good place... the places I've gone to for tailwheel training/rental seem to be doing pretty well with their Citabrias, Champs, Cubs, etc...either because they're often cheaper to operate or because there are a lot of Sport candidates or aerobatic hopefuls in those areas... but in my nationwide searches for taildraggers for rent, I've also come across a lot of "it's been out of annual for 2 years"...or "we don't have an instructor for it...or "not enough interest to cover the insurance", etc.

Taildraggers are just not part of the rental main stream anymore, I guess. The fact that I found that Champ last summer, available for solo rental, was like some kind of miracle. Very rare now, from what I see and hear.

But as fuel prices go up and up (and up), there will be more interest in the lower-power taildraggers... but mostly for ownership, not rental. Maybe there will be an up-tick in the number of pilots looking for an immediate TW endorsement as they start shopping for a taildragger to buy or build, but it's hard to say.

 

[shippjean]

I'd love to, but without owning one of the things (can't afford it) the currency would quickly wear off and I'd be no better than before. If I am in a situation where I can fly one on a repeating basis I may change my mind.

I agree in most cases this is true but our flight school is one of the few that offers the aircraft for rental once you have been checked out!

 

[docmirror]

It's all about the price. If I had an option to rent a Citabria at the same, or similar cost of a brand C or P two seater, I'll pick the Citabria. However, the insurance cost usually cost quite a bit more, which ratchets up the price.

 

[rottydaddy]

When we're in Alaska in August, one of the things on our list to do is get the tailwheel endorsement. We have a 7AC on the line at Clow. I don't know how much it gets used, though. For me, there are serious W&B issues with it.

By "serious W&B issues" do you mean your weight, or is this particular Champ peculiar in some way? I'm asking because I'm hoping to get my hands on it next time I'm out in Chicago (which will be soon).

I flew 70E with a guy a little smaller than me in back, a guy a little bigger than me, and solo, and never had any trouble with it. Hardly ever touched the trim, after confirming it was at or near neutral. A pussycat, although one has to be aware that it has very little power to offer.

I was ready to fly that one at Clow the first time I was out there, but apparently they don't fly it in the winter.
Which I can understand... the oil temp doesn't exactly leap up immediately after start in that wee engine.

 

[ScottM]

I have been wanting to get the trail dragger endorsement but there have been two things stopping me. First was the cost, the place I checked with wanted to sell me minimum of 10 hours. I wanted a performance based approach. Second, Rottydaddy wrecked the plane I was going to do it in.

Well HE didn't wreck it, it just fell apart while he was flying it.

 

[Keith Lane]

I'd trade my C-172 for a taildragger in a heartbeat but for a couple of reasons.

1. Insurance. The cost to insure a taildragger for the first hundred hours is absurd compared to a tri-gear plane. I can see why, but politically, at home I can't sell it.
2. All the ones I can afford to own would almost certainly require hangar space and I don't have one. If I can't justify the extra expense of additional insurance costs, I certainly can't justify the added monthly cost of a hangar, even if one were available to get.​

My flying is just for fun. VFR only. Just poking a hole in the sky and visiting friends. A taildragger with a stick would be a hoot, I'm sure, but in the long run, although the per hour costs are lower, it's the fixed costs that keep me away. A PA-11 or similar will remain just one of those things that I'd love to have. I have entertained the thought of swapping for a C-152, however.​

 

[Flyfishingpilot]

I sought an endorsement for taildragger as soon as I got my PPL. I did it in a J3 and a Stearman. It was such as blast. Taildraggers simply look better to me and I think they are able to operate in conditions that a nose wheel plane can't.

On the bad side, most taildraggers are fabric plane, hence will require a hangar depending on where you live. Also, finding an IFR certified taildragger really limits your choice of airplanes...

 

[Ken Ibold]

[*]Insurance. The cost to insure a taildragger for the first hundred hours is absurd compared to a tri-gear plane. I can see why, but politically, at home I can't sell it.

I don't see it. I had 25 hours tailwheel when I bought my Citabria. $1200/year on a 92K hull value. And when it went into the commercial fleet coverage the premium was exactly what it was for the other fixed gear airplanes of similar hull value.

 

[Pilawt]

The FBO at our airport uses a J-5 for tailwheel transition training. I would have done it last summer, but found that at 6'3" I can't fit into the front seat in that airplane. There is no way my knees would fit under the panel in a way that would allow me to use the rudders and brakes. So as it turned out I bought a new taildragger LSA and did the transition training at the factory just before I took delivery in December.

 

[docmirror]

I don't see it. I had 25 hours tailwheel when I bought my Citabria. $1200/year on a 92K hull value. And when it went into the commercial fleet coverage the premium was exactly what it was for the other fixed gear airplanes of similar hull value.

Cool, I thought that insurance was prohibitive. It appears that it's not so problematic. I had a Citabria on lease back in the '80s and the only people that flew it were me, and fellow banner tow pilots. Some really well qualified guys.

 

[gprellwitz]

It's all about the price. If I had an option to rent a Citabria at the same, or similar cost of a brand C or P two seater, I'll pick the Citabria. However, the insurance cost usually cost quite a bit more, which ratchets up the price.

Our 152 goes for $98/hr, and the Champ for $90/hr. (I'll admit that neither is cheap, but we're in the Chicago area!

By "serious W&B issues" do you mean your weight, or is this particular Champ peculiar in some way? I'm asking because I'm hoping to get my hands on it next time I'm out in Chicago (which will be soon).

I flew 70E with a guy a little smaller than me in back, a guy a little bigger than me, and solo, and never had any trouble with it. Hardly ever touched the trim, after confirming it was at or near neutral. A pussycat, although one has to be aware that it has very little power to offer.

The useful load on our Champ (a 1946 7AC) is 431 lbs. With an FAA standard-weight instructor, I would have 0 fuel.

http://www.aandmaviation.com/fleet_2place.html

 

[rottydaddy]

Our 152 goes for $98/hr, and the Champ for $90/hr. (I'll admit that neither is cheap, but we're in the Chicago area!



The useful load on our Champ (a 1946 7AC) is 431 lbs. With an FAA standard-weight instructor, I would have 0 fuel.

http://www.aandmaviation.com/fleet_2place.html

Hey, no prob... just pick a day with 40-kt wind down the runway, drain the tank, and you could fly all day.

 

[rottydaddy]

I have been wanting to get the trail dragger endorsement but there have been two things stopping me. First was the cost, the place I checked with wanted to sell me minimum of 10 hours.

I wanted a performance based approach.

I am new to this, but from what I've learned, 10 hrs is about average for us nosewheel types... which is probably why most outfits that allow solo rental of their taildraggers have a 10-hr minimum to meet insurance requirements.

I doubt you'll find an outfit that will sign you off after less than 10 hours because of that, although your instructor may feel you're probably OK after, say, your third acceptable wheel landing and/or crosswind landing.

For me, although it cost me about a grand to get the sign-off in the Champ ($55/hr wet plus $40 for the instructor; about 11 hours), it was worth it for having a blast and honing my basic skills while solo for about half what I've spent in the past on Cessna 150/172s. And I bundled the BFR in there for no extra charge, as well as getting my "three to be legal" after not flying in more than 90 days.

It can be a great deal... and it depends on what sort of flying you're doing and how often. The last year or so I've been sort of going from one checkout to another due to my job, so I've gotten philosophical about all the dual... it's not a waste of money; there's always something to learn. Haven't yet had to deal with an unpleasant instructor for a checkout, and the more total time you have the less of a PITA it is.
But that's me... my situation is not typical at all.

Second, Rottydaddy wrecked the plane I was going to do it in.

Well HE didn't wreck it, it just fell apart while he was flying it.

Nothing fell off that was really necessary...


I haven't checked lately... do you know if it's back on the line yet (I was told it would be repaired (differently this time I hope)?

 

[Earthroamer]

Just got single engine re-current in the cub Saturday. Had a blast. If you are ever bored in aviation, go fly a tailwheel.

 

[Tom-D]

I'd trade my C-172 for a taildragger in a heartbeat but for a couple of reasons.]

You should look at the 170-B it is a early 172 with manual flaps that go 40 Degrees, and is 15k faster than the 172.

And is a fun aircraft with the 145 it won't eat you out of a house and home.

6.5-7.5 GPH @ 125k.

 

[Tristar]

I think I'm with some of these guys on this one. There is a beautiful Tailorcraft next door that I would love to get my Twheel endorsement but I can't justify spending $1,000 on it when I'll be leaving here in a year.

 

[ScottM]

Nothing fell off that was really necessary...


I haven't checked lately... do you know if it's back on the line yet (I was told it would be repaired (differently this time I hope)?

I don't know.

To be fair the 10 hours was to solo. I told them I was not interested in soling just getting the endorsement and if I was able to prove I could handle a tail dragger in less then 10 hours would I get the endorsement signed. They responded with 'you need ten hours to solo" SIGH!

 

[shippjean]

Just got single engine re-current in the cub Saturday. Had a blast. If you are ever bored in aviation, go fly a tailwheel.

AMEN thank you sooooo much for appreciating the true meaning and reason for a tail dragger!

 

[PittsDriver]

It might be a catch-22 but I see the bigger problem as how few CFIs are qualified and willing to take on primary training in a tail wheel aircraft. I'm ready to buy a 150 texas tail wheel for my kids to learn how to fly on but can't find anyone I'd trust to train them. I'm seriously considering going after my CFI just to train my own kids.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Also, finding an IFR certified taildragger really limits your choice of airplanes...

Once upon a time while Pitts shopping I came across a trio of IFR equipped Pitts S-2Bs, all for sale. Which begs the question, if you fly a localizer back course while inverted, does it still reverse sense?

 

[Ken Ibold]

It might be a catch-22 but I see the bigger problem as how few CFIs are qualified and willing to take on primary training in a tail wheel aircraft. I'm ready to buy a 150 texas tail wheel for my kids to learn how to fly on but can't find anyone I'd trust to train them. I'm seriously considering going after my CFI just to train my own kids.

Check with Diana before you get that Texas Taildragger...

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

When I was becoming a taildragger instructor, my CFI told me that all the horror stories we hear about taildraggers were true and the 2 TDs we had in our club succumbed to classic maladies associated with the conventional gear and have been either totaled or parted out. If a pilot or club wants to pay extra to get an essentially antiquated configuration, either to fly or for a rental, a TD is one way to do it.

 

[Tristar]

Once upon a time while Pitts shopping I came across a trio of IFR equipped Pitts S-2Bs, all for sale. Which begs the question, if you fly a localizer back course while inverted, does it still reverse sense?

Oh the fun that could be had!

I would love to see the look on Tower's face when you bust out of the clouds inverted.

 

[alaskaflyer]

If a pilot or club wants to pay extra to get an essentially antiquated configuration, either to fly or for a rental, a TD is one way to do it.

Goodness, where did that come from?

A conventional gear airplane is a tool for a specialized toolbox, they still make them new today for very important reasons. If they are antiquated it is for the pavement - to - pavement types such as yourself.

 

[One Short]

In all honesty how many of you out there are interested in flying a tailwheel airplane. Please let me know your thoughts!


Thanks,
Jeannie

Jeannie

I'd really like to get some more tailwheel time. I have the endorsement but am far from proficient. But it is a good hour flight for me to get to PTK and flying a "Low and Slow" in one of the busiest airspaces in Michigan seems to me like taking a bicycle ride on I-75, not too much fun. But it sure is tempting.

Barb

 

[Teller1900]

I look forward to the day I get to fly one! I've spent some time in tail draggers, but never really flown one. 240 to the marker is fun and all, but damnit...I want to go low and slow and see the sights now! Not to mention I always thought TDs just look cool.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

240 to the marker is fun and all,

240 to the marker??? I could do 210 in the Jetstream and be configured by 1000 feet in VFR conditions, but holy cow. The 1900 must have more drag somewhere.

 

[shippjean]

Jeannie

I'd really like to get some more tailwheel time. I have the endorsement but am far from proficient. But it is a good hour flight for me to get to PTK and flying a "Low and Slow" in one of the busiest airspaces in Michigan seems to me like taking a bicycle ride on I-75, not too much fun. But it sure is tempting.

Barb

Barb,

Thanks for the interest...we would be more than happy to fly up to where you are and spend a day with you flying and getting you current again!

Let me know...and visit our website for more info....www.sutton-aviation.com

~Jeannie

 

[Missa]

Jeannie

I'd really like to get some more tailwheel time. I have the endorsement but am far from proficient. But it is a good hour flight for me to get to PTK and flying a "Low and Slow" in one of the busiest airspaces in Michigan seems to me like taking a bicycle ride on I-75, not too much fun. But it sure is tempting.

Barb

Nah! Barb it was FUN! I got my tailwheel endorsment there! I can't tell you how fun it is to be flying the pattern in a Citabra with Lears landing on the big runway and a J3 cub on floats doing splash and go's on the lake beneith your pattern. Then to take off and hop over to the west to go to maple grove airport to play on the grass... it's a little peice of heaven. And Flying with Bary with his big booming laugh coming from the back seat is the peaches.

Well worth the trip down.

Missa

BTW, Jean are you teaching for Bary as well? Do you teach in the Citabra? My weekend is tightening up so I doubt I can come fly... : (

 

[Teller1900]

240 to the marker??? I could do 210 in the Jetstream and be configured by 1000 feet in VFR conditions, but holy cow. The 1900 must have more drag somewhere.

We have drag everywhere. Taillets, winglets, strakes, stabilons, 9'10" props, and no aerodynamic contouring of any kind...we have tons of drag when we want it. If they let us, we'll run 230-240 to 1500 AGL, close the power, stay on the slope...we'll be fully configured by 500 AGL (our minimum in VMC). You can cut it a little tighter if you run the props up as you close the power, otherwise we only need about 1000 feet on the slope to get from Vmo to Vapp. Ask Felix, he's seen it .

 

[jesse]

My tailwheel endorsement without a doubt made me a better pilot. I really wish I could figure out a way to get some more tailwheel time. I can't really find any for rent in Nebraska.

 

[vontresc]

TW actually makes you aware of the rudder. After getting my TW, I tried to slip the archer, and was suprised how much less effective the rudder was on the Archer as opposed to the Champ.

This summer I plan on getting checked out in the Cubs at Hartford (Where my glider club is located). There are 3 yellow cubs for rent (all with Armstrong Strters). 65, 85, and 95hp iirc.

 

[rottydaddy]

I don't know.

To be fair the 10 hours was to solo. I told them I was not interested in soling just getting the endorsement and if I was able to prove I could handle a tail dragger in less then 10 hours would I get the endorsement signed. They responded with 'you need ten hours to solo" SIGH!

Well... maybe you could do it, but even though I found I could handle the Champ adequately right away (my first 3-pointer was not bad at all- it's not much different than a full-stall in a nosewheel airplane), the first taste of a crosswind, even while taxiing, showed me that even after ten hours, it's highly unlikely that anybody would have it all locked down, no matter how much total time they have. I'm also convinced that having 200+ nosewheel hours was, ultimately, a handicap. You have to force yourself to think differently about all the stuff you usually take for granted. New V-speeds, rudder in turns, etc. are the easy part... just getting from parking to takeoff in a taildragger is quite different, especially with some wind.

Getting into some 140s and then a J3 for some landings and taxiing also showed me how they are all quite different in subtle ways... your theoretical 5-hr endorsement without solo wouldn't get you any closer to being trusted with some other tailwheel airplane than you are now... nobody would be impressed, I think, unless maybe they were witness to your amazing aptitude...

It's your money, but I hardly see it as too much to spend, and if you do it as a BFR (depending on how much ground time the reviewing instructor wants to spend with you), it won't hurt as much.

 

[rottydaddy]

Goodness, where did that come from?

A conventional gear airplane is a tool for a specialized toolbox, they still make them new today for very important reasons. If they are antiquated it is for the pavement - to - pavement types such as yourself.

They have other advantages, too- maintenance of a tailwheel vs a more-complicated nosewheel, less drag than the equivalent plane with a nosewheel... and much easier to move around the ramp without a towbar if you have to.

I think the horror stories are due to misunderstood or neglected machines... how many nosewheel planes have come to grief due to neglect or bad technique?

I wonder what the ratio of taildragger noseovers and ground loops is to nosewheel wheelbarrow and tail strike incidents...

I will concede that antiquated brake systems have their problems- I wasn't crazy about the cable-actuated Goodyears (?) on that Champ I flew... but I learned to only use them when absolutely necessary.

 

[shippjean]

([/quote]
BTW, Jean are you teaching for Bary as well? Do you teach in the Citabra? My weekend is tightening up so I doubt I can come fly... : ([/quote]


No I am working on my instrument right now, but I am working off my flight time by doing his billing and advertising and schedeuling... that stinks you can't come out...