Scotty
Pre-Flight
I learned in a Cessna 120 with a Narco VHT-3 SuperHomer with whistle stop. No transponder ...all thanks to my dear departed Dad.
Learning the "old way"
- Thread starter MedicineMan
- Start date
NoBShere
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2014
- Messages
- 389
- Display Name
Display name:
NoBShere
I earned my PPL about a year ago. My training was paper charts and steam gauges with barely any use of the gps. I liked learning this way as if things go south, i can deal with the chart and figure out what to do. If I had to do it over, I would have taken at least one or two flights with an instructor to better learn the new tools that are available. In fact, i might just do that now as I admittedly don't know all of the functionality of the systems installed in the planes I rent.
Is this discussion really any different than they pilot who says things like "when i learned to fly, we didn't have radios"? I shared the pattern the other day with someone who wasn't on the radio, they didn't do anything wrong. They flew very predictably as a matter of fact.
I have shared this before so to keep it brief, my DPE commented that I need to understand how to use all of the equipment in the airplane, including the GPS. That was a comment I wasn't expecting as I had handled all navigation and diversion well with charts, VOR and AFD. Btw, I still have a paper chart and chart supplement with me on cross countries, partly as back up and my wife and friends seem to have fun following along on paper.
Somewhat related, it really is interesting how much I have learned since passing my checkride. Sometimes it is a little concerning when I hear more experienced pilots talk about things in a matter of fact tone. I just think, how did i not know that? I guess that is why they call it experience.
Is this discussion really any different than they pilot who says things like "when i learned to fly, we didn't have radios"? I shared the pattern the other day with someone who wasn't on the radio, they didn't do anything wrong. They flew very predictably as a matter of fact.
I have shared this before so to keep it brief, my DPE commented that I need to understand how to use all of the equipment in the airplane, including the GPS. That was a comment I wasn't expecting as I had handled all navigation and diversion well with charts, VOR and AFD. Btw, I still have a paper chart and chart supplement with me on cross countries, partly as back up and my wife and friends seem to have fun following along on paper.
Somewhat related, it really is interesting how much I have learned since passing my checkride. Sometimes it is a little concerning when I hear more experienced pilots talk about things in a matter of fact tone. I just think, how did i not know that? I guess that is why they call it experience.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
How about some schmuck with a GPS jammer in a truck driving below, trying to defeat his company's nanny program? It doesn't take as catastrophic a problem as you describe to cause problems with GPS. Heck, the government even does it itself almost weekly.
Yes, it happens.
Harold Rutila
Pre-takeoff checklist
If you're flying with me as a private pilot student, we're using a paper chart, plotter, pencil, and an old fashioned nav log for at least the first of the cross countries we fly.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,884
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
I fly for a major airline. The other day I flew with a captain who did just that. He actually had an old fashion paper nav log partially filled in with pencil. He filled the rest during the leg.
I have never seen that in the airlines before. I was truly blown away.
Harold Rutila
Pre-takeoff checklist
That's incredible! I'm not sure I'd take it that far, but if it works, it works!
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,884
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
Yup. Especially since we get a computer print out version of the same thing.
If we weren't flying an Airbus with the pull out table, I'm guessing he would have been wearing a knee board !!
denverpilot
Tied Down
There's a video floating around that's not too old from BA showing a Captain doing that on a North Atlantic Track, but it is a PR video after all... so YMMV on whether he always did it. But he sure acted like he did all the way across the Atlantic for a TV crew. Scribbling down times over things and checking the times to make sure that the INS wasn't out to lunch.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,884
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
In class II airspace that sort of thing is common and usually required. However it's usually done with a Atlantic planning chart and company flight plan. Thats truly a different animal from what I'm talking about.
What I saw was a basic VFR style nav log like I used as a student pilot 32 years ago.
LongRoadBob
Cleared for Takeoff
I'm doing the same thing, at least while learning.
I do have some apps, never have used in flight, I don't take my iPad with me.
I do have a very nice W&B app, and a couple other. But I first do it by hand, also thinking about the process and use the app as both a double check on my calculation, but also it is great to check out variations (what if I use less fuel, and trade front and back passengers, etc.) but I think it is important.
I also would not want to be totally dependant on GPS and also, the exams all require manual calculations. So we have to learn it anyway.
Have for fun been doing orienteering with map and compass, out in the woods and it is the same principle. I much more enjoy knowing how to read maps, and use an actual compass than I would using GPS, and you cannot always count on the device, etc. and honestly, I feel it is a lot more of an accomplishment.
I definitely am learning on steam gauges, but I'm not a Luddite. I absolutely can appreciate that glass panels would take a little getting used to but probably are much easier,and as someone pointed out, maybe also help let you have eyes outside a lot more. But I do feel like I need to learn to read steam gauges at a glance, and get used to focus outside and on gauges...I'm getting better but it is not easy.
Since i am sure after getting my ppl I will be renting for a good while if I ever can afford my own plane, and think most rental aircraft are still steam, but have the goal of being able to use both.
SoCal RV Flyer
En-Route
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2016
- Messages
- 3,037
- Display Name
Display name:
SoCal RV Flyer
Good peace of mind to always have a paper sectional in the plane, no matter your nav method. In a pinch, you can fold it up and use it as a pax barf bag. 
denverpilot
Tied Down
Good peace of mind to always have a paper sectional in the plane, no matter your nav method. In a pinch, you can fold it up and use it as a pax barf bag.
LOL. We always have some in our airplane and all three of us fly with tablets. Never had to do the barf bag thing with them though. Once in a while, I feel guilty that they're out of date and buy some new ones for the local area. Even the outdated ones are better than nothing if multiple gadgets and things in the panel all crap out simultaneously, somehow.
If I ever get to taking the single-engine checkrides, those outdated charts will magically disappear into a Tupperware container in the hanger we use for storing the "historical charts" until someone either tosses them or makes them into some sort of new artwork for their house.
There's a San Antonio in there that's a couple of years old. Doubt it'll ever get used for anything but the weight penalty isn't significant leaving itin the right side map pocket, so it gets to ride around and feel important. Ha.
Knowing the electronic age is with us to stay, I am trying to embrace it. However, having learned to fly back in the 80's with no GPS, I pads, tablets, whatever, I'm very grateful I learned the "old" way with paper charts and VOR and NDB navigation. As long as they print them, I'll always have paper charts for backup.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
I used to give my students a gift when they passed their check ride. I'd wrap it in sectional for a bit more kick. Most of 'em got a 6 pack.
saddletramp
Line Up and Wait
Yes, the old "whistle-stop" days. Not many will know that reference either.
Rykymus
Line Up and Wait
2 iPads, 2 iPhones, a Stratus 2, a backup battery, and autopilot, and a GPS. The only paper in the plane is my notepad (I don't like writing on the iPad), and 3 laminated checklists. Unless someone sets off an EMP, I'm good. And if they do, I'm pretty much screwed anyway.
Don't get me wrong, though. Everyone should know how to plan a trip on paper. Just like you should know how to do the math without the calculator. You gotta understand what the gadgets are doing. But in the real world, I'm using the easiest, most accurate methods available to me.
Than again, I love gadgets.
Don't get me wrong, though. Everyone should know how to plan a trip on paper. Just like you should know how to do the math without the calculator. You gotta understand what the gadgets are doing. But in the real world, I'm using the easiest, most accurate methods available to me.
Than again, I love gadgets.
I don't think anyone is against using automation. It's when the automation takes a crap can you still find your way back home. If you can't navigate without a GPS or iPad that's a problem.
LongRoadBob
Cleared for Takeoff
Isn't it still true that for the exam you are only allowed a calculator and flight computer?
If that is the case it would be self defeating to use all the gadgets as you would want to be capable of doing it the old way. How about for check rides, what is allowed there?
If that is the case it would be self defeating to use all the gadgets as you would want to be capable of doing it the old way. How about for check rides, what is allowed there?
It's examiner's discretion. I only used paper on all my rides but I'm sure they would let me use an iPad if I wanted to.
Scotty
Pre-Flight
Bob, sounds like your going about it in the right way....one habit you might want to get into is calling them CHARTS instead of MAPS. Happy flying...
LongRoadBob
Cleared for Takeoff
Thanks, WILCO...
I'm not a real pilot yet so I need all of this kind of advice I can get!
It's a whole other world, so much to learn. I'm still amazed by it. Thanks!
Scotty
Pre-Flight
Bob, I'm an old X pilot and I think the world needs a lot more " not a real pilot yet " people. I wish you all the best and enjoy learning ...it's the best time of all..Scotty
Similar to Engineering School. Learn the basics and develop a "feel" and judgment for about what the answer should be (not out to the second or third decimal point), then when the automation gives you the answer, you know whether or not it is reasonable. It is not important for all the smart phone and computer users in the world to know the basics of how the phone/computer operates, etc., but a pilot needs to know the basics, THEN use the automation. I think it is mainly a matter of how important the results are.
Airplanebarn
Filing Flight Plan
I'm with you Hank ! Most trips I take are under 100 miles and I just draw a line on the PAPER sectional and Go Fly ! I learned Years ago and these new Glass Toys are handy but distract you from Looking Outside and Flying The Airplane . My Instructor told me , " Learn your Neighborhood " go out and fly using land marks and your memory . Identify towns by what you know about them .. " Oh there's the New School with the Track around the Football Field .... there's the Drag Strip , I know where I am ... the Pumpkin Water Tower or the Apple Water Tower " . I am never Lost I just don't know where I am ...yet . I still have my Original Wiz Wheel ... still works ..no updates or recharging required !I learned in 2006-2007 with a single VOR and no GPS. Worked well enough I took that plane on a 200 nm each way trip along the Appalachians from furthest WV to KAVL and back. When I fly by pilotage, I still fly straight lines on the sectional (drawn and highlighted), I never follow roads.
Last fall I went from east AL to Griffin, GA and back, and had taken the GPS card home to update and left it. Even dodging the build ups around Lagrange (KLGC) didn't throw me off, it just made my course less straight. And I stayed out of the Bravo!
Learn the old way, and practice from time to time. If you need it, the roads are there as a backup. Pick landmarks, keep up with passing airports, and head towards your destination. I find flying generally saves me 25-30% of the driving distance, and 60-70% of the driving time. Spin the Whiz Wheel with forecast winds aloft and go somewhere!