Learning from poor performance - taxiing at STL

Martin Pauly

Martin Pauly

Line Up and Wait
PoA Supporter
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
943
Location
Cedar Rapids, IA
Display Name
Display name:
Martin Pauly
They say we learn more from the bad ones than the good ones, right? Here's an example from a while ago where I was not on top of my game. The flight into St. Louis (STL) was fine, but what I did on the ground was a good example of what not to do.

In the spirit of learning, here is a summary of this flight. (And no, I did not fly through the arch.)

 
Interesting, and a learning experience.
I can't read it on your chart, but taxiway P or F straight out from Signature used to be a narrow runway some years ago. That caught more than one pilot coming out of the FBO off guard taxing onto a runway thinking it was a taxiway.
 
Martin Pauly said:
They say we learn more from the bad ones than the good ones, right? Here's an example from a while ago where I was not on top of my game. The flight into St. Louis (STL) was fine, but what I did on the ground was a good example of what not to do.

In the spirit of learning, here is a summary of this flight. (And no, I did not fly through the arch.)

Click to expand...

I enjoy your videos! You might be a bit harder on yourself than necessary, here. With your narrative buildup I was expecting an incorrect taxi route based on the clearance or even worse, possibly a runway incursion. Instead just a little brief confusion in which you (wisely) asked the controller to repeat his rapid-fire instruction.

To me the best takeaway from your video is not to be afraid to speak up and request clarification, even if you're getting the "hurry up and do what I say" vibe from the controller.

Nice work,
 
Ryan F. said:
To me the best takeaway from your video is not to be afraid to speak up and request clarification, even if you're getting the "hurry up and do what I say" vibe from the controller.
Click to expand...
Agreed, Ryan.

And still, I should have been more alert when he talked to me after I had been holding short. You are right, nothing dangerous happened (e.g. runway incursion), but I am not happy with my performance there. I know I can do better.

Regards,
Martin
 
Agree with confusing taxi instruction.
 
Enjoyed the video and learned from it. Thanks for posting
 
I’ve been enjoying your videos Martin. One comment and one question.

On this video, it might have been hard for the ground controller to judge your taxi speed over long distances, and he might not have anticipated the second SW 737 arrival when he gave you the original hold short at Kilo clearance.

I’ve noticed you seem to intentionally go to Bravos (SFO, JFK, STL) when there are other less busy (and cheaper) alternatives. Are you just trying to check them all off, or is there some other reason you seek out the Bravos?
 
Last edited:
Martin Pauly said:
They say we learn more from the bad ones than the good ones, right? \
Click to expand...

The first thing I notice in the video is your taxing: is your airplane equipped with some autotaxi system that keeps it nailed on that yellow line? :)

Then, seriously, I was left to wonder where I'd be looking if I was advised to yield for a jet crossing "left to right", if there was a jet already to my right. Would there be a situational bias delaying me from looking to the left? Sometimes I land at KMDW and it's full of identical jets. I don't know what I'd do if I was told to follow a Southwest jet or yield to it. Which one? o_O

And finally: are you sharing this with FAA through some formal channel? Would it be useful to do so? Is this a situation worth documenting in ASRS?
 
Thanks for sharing. Just taxiing there seems more intense then the approach.
It helps to know what to expect but they toss those instructions so fast you can easily miss something. Great job of just asking again.
Now if you were relatively new to taxiing here would you be admonished for asking for a progressive taxi? I have never landed at a big bravo. But my plan if I do and get situated away from my FBO is to just ask for one.
 
I agree with your assessment. Some of ATCs transmissions could be ambiguous and could have been stated clearer, especially the part about passing behind the SWA jet, in a sea of SWA aircraft. I also wonder why they landed you on 29 instead of 30R for Signature. That would have been much easier on the ground.

My one experience in STL was much different. They originally set me up for 30R assuming I was inbound for the FBO. I requested 29 because it was closer to my destination on the airport. They offered me a tight right base, right around the tower. Got to buzz the tower. On the way in, I was the only aircraft on tower and was not switched to ground for taxi, like a Class D tower does sometimes. On the way out the only other traffic was a lone SWA following me to the runway.
 
Van Johnston said:
I’ve noticed you seem to intentionally go to Bravos (SFO, JFK, STL) when there are other less busy (and cheaper) alternatives. Are you just trying to check them all off, or is there some other reason you seek out the Bravos?
Click to expand...
It's a bucket list item for me. I'd like to fly to all Class Bravo airports in the lower 48. I'm about one third down the list by now.
The large airports are rarely convenient, and never the most economical option. But I find them exciting.

- Martin
 
If you’re going to fly into all Class Bs, you can expect more of this. All major airports seem to have a rythym that takes a little while to figure out. Some places just don’t have the time to spell everything out for you. O’hare comes to mind. I think you did fine, but you can expect to get barked at if you are unfamiliar and hesitant at some places. If it were me, I wouldn’t expect to go into the busiest airports and catch onto the flow the first time. I would do plenty of homework before going into the busier Class Bs.
 
GreatLakesFlying said:
The first thing I notice in the video is your taxing: is your airplane equipped with some autotaxi system that keeps it nailed on that yellow line? :)
Click to expand...
A great instructor once told me, when I was off centerline: "The centerline is a lonely place. It's for professionals only". Since then, I hear his voice in my head anytime I taxi. I try - I'm not always on it, but I want to be.

Then, seriously, I was left to wonder where I'd be looking if I was advised to yield for a jet crossing "left to right", if there was a jet already to my right. Would there be a situational bias delaying me from looking to the left? Sometimes I land at KMDW and it's full of identical jets. I don't know what I'd do if I was told to follow a Southwest jet or yield to it. Which one? o_O
Click to expand...
It can be confusing, right? I had my eyes on the 737 vacating the taxiway to the right when I heard the call; I had not yet spotted the one on the left. And I had Kilo in mind from the prior "hold short of Kilo" instruction. Looking back, everything makes perfect sense - but at the time it didn't, despite the controller speaking very clearly and using proper phraseology.

And finally: are you sharing this with FAA through some formal channel? Would it be useful to do so? Is this a situation worth documenting in ASRS?
Click to expand...
Not formally, but on YouTube as well as on Reddit a few controllers provided feedback today, and some of that dialog was very constructive. Including a controller from St. Louis. I think the power of social media in this case may actually be greater than that of an ASRS report.

Best,
Martin
 
I truly don’t see much of an issue...
I think both you and ATC were just fine.
 
Martin Pauly said:
They say we learn more from the bad ones than the good ones, right? Here's an example from a while ago where I was not on top of my game. The flight into St. Louis (STL) was fine, but what I did on the ground was a good example of what not to do.

In the spirit of learning, here is a summary of this flight. (And no, I did not fly through the arch.)

Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

Sounds like things worked just like they were supposed to. AIM 4-3-18 b. I agree with you maybe the controller might have used more positive control by not issuing the ‘conditional’ instruction to pass behind the SWA left to right on Lima and held you at Lima until it had passed. The first one was still close enough to having just done it that confusion could happen. I’ll bet next time something like this happens though, you’ll take a look in the direction he’s indicating to you, see the one that is actually ‘left to right’ and go behind it. You said in the narration “...if you no longer want me to continue to kilo...” He didn’t say anything about not continuing to Kilo, he just said go behind another plane on the way.

On final, you asking “is a long landing approved’ is a wasted transmission, you need no approval to do it. If you knew you weren’t going to get off until A4 it would be a logical thing to do. When you said the earliest turn off of Runway 29 is A4, is it because you knew you couldn’t make A3. The only limitation on turning off ‘backwards’ on a high speed is the turning radius of your airplane.
 
Last edited:
You were fine. Their instructions were imperfect and you took the safe route. No need to be hard on yourself, though your commitment to always improving yourself clearly makes you an excellent pilot.
 
Cooter said:
If you’re going to fly into all Class Bs, you can expect more of this. All major airports seem to have a rythym that takes a little while to figure out.
Click to expand...

To the OP - this is exactly right. I don't think there was really any problem with what happened in your case and you handled it just fine regardless. The airline guys have the benefit of cheat sheets in their Jepps that spell out many of the 'quirks' we can expect while operating at the busier Class B airports. Even then it can sometimes be confusing to a crew that doesn't operate there all the time. Last year we had an Airbus 321 almost get hit by a parking 330 because they weren't aware of a small piece of tribal knowledge at LAX. It was just dumb luck that the 330's wingtip didn't come tearing through their flight deck. So taking it slow and playing it safe - even at the risk of annoying a controller - is the right move.
 
Cooter said:
If you’re going to fly into all Class Bs, you can expect more of this. All major airports seem to have a rythym that takes a little while to figure out. Some places just don’t have the time to spell everything out for you. O’hare comes to mind. I think you did fine, but you can expect to get barked at if you are unfamiliar and hesitant at some places. If it were me, I wouldn’t expect to go into the busiest airports and catch onto the flow the first time. I would do plenty of homework before going into the busier Class Bs.
Click to expand...

Rhythm at Kennedy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top