Learning From Other Pilots: Routine Limits And Rules

kimberlyanne546

kimberlyanne546

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Kimberly
First, let me apologize for the title of this thread. I couldn't come up with a good name.

What I want to find out from each of you is something I've only recently observed by flying with other pilots (me as a pax, them as PIC in their plane).

Only some pilots tell me what they are doing / thinking, so that means I've only experienced this a handful of times.

What are your routine limits, rules, and regulations?

For example, though I'm sure it was mentioned in my training, my CFI never said to me something like this:

Before every flight, do a WB, then check the temp, then look at the runway length. Do the math and figure out when you should abort the takeoff - for example, if we don't reach rotation speed by the windsock, we should abort (or marker on the ground, or building, etc).

Another example:

Sterile cockpit until 1,000 feet (or more, whatever it takes to make that impossible turn back to the runway). This came up on Saturday with my almost CFI pax, we were going to do VOR work but I said I wanted to wait until we were higher before I started fiddling with a bunch of knobs. He was very happy to hear this and so I kept looking out the window and focusing on flying the plane. He even said "aviate, navigate, communicate" too.

And another:

Nobody talks in the plane from abeam the numbers until landing - another sterile cockpit thing.

And another:

A pilot friend of mine reads - out loud - during the preflight - what he will do in case of engine failure with runway remaining, withouth runway remaining, at altitude, etc.

You get the idea. What I am finding out with this "license to learn" is that every moment of every flight, from preflight to tie down, I should be more prepared for the "what if". When I first started out, I sort of just got in the plane and flew. Now that I'm doing Young Eagles, etc I don't think that is good enough.

On Saturday, after taking off from Petaluma, the almost CFI sitting right seat said on upwind that he didn't think we could go to my planned destination. That was him making a mental note of how long our takeoff roll was, how it was only getting hotter that day, and how much shorter the runway is at Skypark. So we flew to a long runway instead at the nearest towered airport.

It is observations of other pilots' behavior, such as this one, that remind me to always be thinking / observing / calculating. Laziness is a bad thing and I've become lazy.
 
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THe CFI I'm flying with now is retired AF and airlines. He always goes through a quick emergency list with me just prior to takeoff. Keeps it fresh.
 
If it flies, floats or f's, rent it.
 
typical pre takeoff briefing in gliders. below 200 feet you land straight ahead in the event of a tow failure. above 200 you have the choice of turning back if that is the best choice
 
Glider instruction doesn't apply to you.

Unless you lose your engine, in which case I guess it does.
 
in an airplane you'd need 500 feet at an absolute minimum, probably higher to have a comfortable margin.
 
My rules for pilot vs. nonpilot passengers are a bit different.

For nonpilots, no talking in Class D or while on CTAF, when taking off or landing. Period. The only exception is for pointing out traffic or other obstacles that they think I don't see. For pilots, it's no talking during final descent (i.e., past the numbers, usually) or before crosswind.

No one touches controls without my permission. Even a CFI or DPE.

Big one: No crap on the floor in the front seat. If Mom wants her oxygen tank on board, it goes in the back (if the cannula will reach the front seat, that's fine, as long as the tank is secure).

For kids, use the bathroom before every flight whether you need it or not. Sometimes accompanied by a visual of a Cessna bathroom (empty Snapple bottle).

Everyone participates in traffic scan.

Skypark, as in Sonoma Skypark? That runway is longer than the one I trained on. To not be able to land a heavy 172 there, it would need to be well over 100 deg, even with a 50% margin. It's at sea level. There used to be an airport called just "Sky Park" and it was quite close to where I live (Scotts Valley, CA). It closed in the early 80s a few years after Woz crashed his Bonanza there. The remaining runway there would be too short for any Cessna -- it's maybe 300 feet.
 
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I will only land at an airport at night if it has some sort of glide slope indication. Either lights or a precision approach.
 
MAKG1 said:
My rules for pilot vs. nonpilot passengers are a bit different.

For nonpilots, no talking in Class D or while on CTAF, when taking off or landing. Period. The only exception is for pointing out traffic or other obstacles that they think I don't see. For pilots, it's no talking during final descent (i.e., past the numbers, usually) or before crosswind.

No one touches controls without my permission. Even a CFI or DPE.

Big one: No crap on the floor in the front seat. If Mom wants her oxygen tank on board, it goes in the back (if the cannula will reach the front seat, that's fine, as long as the tank is secure).

For kids, use the bathroom before every flight whether you need it or not. Sometimes accompanied by a visual of a Cessna bathroom (empty Snapple bottle).

Everyone participates in traffic scan.

Skypark, as in Sonoma Skypark? That runway is longer than the one I trained on. To not be able to land a heavy 172 there, it would need to be well over 100 deg, even with a 50% margin. It's at sea level. There used to be an airport called just "Sky Park" and it was quite close to where I live (Scotts Valley, CA). It closed in the early 80s a few years after Woz crashed his Bonanza there. The remaining runway there would be too short for any Cessna -- it's maybe 300 feet.
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Yes, Sonoma Skypark. Yes, it was going to be btwn 90-100 deg. that day. No we were in a Cessna 150 but we had full tanks and he is 200 lbs so we were near max gross with our flight bags etc. Skypark is under 2500 feet long, Petaluma is over 3500.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Yes, Sonoma Skypark. Yes, it was going to be btwn 90-100 deg. that day. No we were in a Cessna 150 but we had full tanks and he is 200 lbs so we were near max gross with our flight bags etc. Skypark is under 2500 feet long, Petaluma is over 3500.
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Even at max gross, 120 deg F, and a 50% overrun margin, I'm finding it hard to reconcile your numbers. 2500 feet should be plenty for any legal conditions, excepting excruciatingly (and probably impossibly) hot conditions. Using the 50 foot numbers corrected for temperature, no winds, plus 50%, for landing and takeoff, rather than the ground roll. Are there some obstacles not accounted for in the declared lengths?

PAO is slightly shorter, and the only time I was even close to concerned about runway length was a too-fast no-flap landing in a Cherokee. And that was because it floated way too much.
 
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Never let the airplane get anywhere my brain hasn't already been far enough ahead to keep the plane from getting there if my brain didn't like it there.
 
I have found that you will develop your own set of rules based on previous/others experiences that you will emphasize over and beyond the basics. When I took up my first passengers, it didn't cross my mind that a non flying passenger wouldn't know to be quiet during the take off/landing phase so I could concentrate on the task at hand and not miss any ATC calls. After learning the hard way, I incorporated the sterile cockpit into my passenger briefing. I am based out of an airport under a busy class bravo shelf, so my passengers are now preoccupied with looking for traffic.

On the way to my PPL check ride the throttle cable broke in the Cherokee that I was flying. It created a runaway engine senario and we had to shut it down over the airport and glide in. Now I always check for smooth operation of the throttle before start up.

I once had a CFI who would suddenly make aggressive corrections to the airplane to make a point (there was no immediate danger, he didn't last long). Now, before I fly with a new CFI or another pilot we talk about how we are going to handle those situations on the ground. Basically, don't touch my controls with out discussing/asking. I play by that rule when I am flying in other pilot's planes.

After an embarrassing stuck mic situation while in training for my PPL, I now include checking the transmit light on my radio in my scan.
 
tonycondon said:
in an airplane you'd need 500 feet at an absolute minimum, probably higher to have a comfortable margin.
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And on a short runway with no headwind, there may not be any altitude that will allow a successful turnback.
 
My instructor/Southwest captain taught me to double check Flaps/Trim/Gas as I take the active runway.
 
Palmpilot said:
And on a short runway with no headwind, there may not be any altitude that will allow a successful turnback.
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or worse, a short runway with a good headwind and a strong towplane.
 
MAKG1 said:
Even at max gross, 120 deg F, and a 50% overrun margin, I'm finding it hard to reconcile your numbers. 2500 feet should be plenty for any legal conditions, excepting excruciatingly (and probably impossibly) hot conditions. Using the 50 foot numbers corrected for temperature, no winds, plus 50%, for landing and takeoff, rather than the ground roll. Are there some obstacles not accounted for in the declared lengths?

PAO is slightly shorter, and the only time I was even close to concerned about runway length was a too-fast no-flap landing in a Cherokee. And that was because it floated way too much.
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They aren't my numbers. I made friends with a young man at Young Eagles. He was helping give the kids ground school before they got in our plane. We all hung out after (all pilots and ground crew). Turns out the guy is about to go for the CFI ride and needs / appreciates time in planes to "observe." I wanted to help out and a few of us offered to take him in our planes. He's been working on the CFI for 8 years while doing other things and I totally felt his pain of wanting to finish. I offered him a ride saying I really needed to practice landing at short fields with obstacles aka challenging airports. The closest one is Skypark and we met and planned the flight, I wrote down TPA and runway numbers etc.

On UPWIND TO GO TO SKYPARK he said we should not attempt. I went along with this since the alternate was towered and I need radio practice. No biggie. Yeah, I realize I am PIC but I just wanted to fly that day anyhow. Looking back, that is the SECOND CFI who has not had me land at skypark. The first, we got there, had a plane full (3 people) and the windsock was a direct gusting crosswind so he said we should go home. The second, see above.

Skypark, the airport I will never fly to!
 
Kimberly, my limits and rules change a bit depending on how much I've been flying. I own my plane, after 1000+ hours in it, some things are mentally "automagic". For example, I don't need to run the math for every takeoff, only for those with unusual characteristics (shorter than 2,500', tailwind, grass, or heavier weight than usual/max gross).

Basic rules:
1) stay way ahead of the plane.
2) sterile cockpit from run-up to safe altitude and entering traffic pattern to landing. Exception: if I have a passenger that hasn't flown or hasn't flown much, I'll narrate the steps for takeoff to avoid surprises. I have used the "isolate" switch on the audio panel on occasion.
3) No "turnbacks" under ~1000' unless pre-briefed.
4) Always watch for traffic. Always. Even at a towered airport.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Skypark, the airport I will never fly to!
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A couple of PAO folks I know have gone out there, though I haven't yet. It's a good cross-country destination, as it's like 50.1 nautical miles from PAO. It looks hard to spot, based on the satellite photos.

Petaluma looks to be a better airport, and it's only a few miles further. The risk there is the swarm of ultralights, which makes for an "interesting" pattern. And the seemingly local habit of reporting in "over the foothills," which to my unfamiliar eye could be three different directions.

So far, the only runway I've rejected was the turf runway at Columbia. It's 2200 feet, and it was hot as heck, and the departure end points at a couple of hangars and some nearby terrain. With the turf and density altitude penalties, I didn't think there was quite enough margin on the takeoff in the 180 HP 172N I was in. On a cool day, it will be fine, as long as it isn't mucky.
 
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MAKG1 said:
A couple of PAO folks I know have gone out there, though I haven't yet. It's a good cross-country destination, as it's like 50.1 nautical miles from PAO. It looks hard to spot, based on the satellite photos.

Petaluma looks to be a better airport, and it's only a few miles further. The risk there is the swarm of ultralights, which makes for an "interesting" pattern. And the seemingly local habit of reporting in "over the foothills," which to my unfamiliar eye could be three different directions.

So far, the only runway I've rejected was the turf runway at Columbia. It's 2200 feet, and it was hot as heck, and the departure end points at a couple of hangars and some nearby terrain. With the turf and density altitude penalties, I didn't think there was quite enough margin on the takeoff in the 180 HP 172N I was in. On a cool day, it will be fine, as long as it isn't mucky.
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Many pilots from towered airports at my POA gathering on July 4 said they avoid flying to Petaluma at all costs on weekends (they drove). It can get very busy, and, unfortunately - at the hold short line this past Saturday in my rented 150 - I saw the closest thing to a midair I have ever witnessed. Many of us were up / around to see it (one Eagles flight even cautioned him on the radio they were about to hit one another). I was Eagle 11, so as you can imagine this RV guy heard / saw all of us and then did some very strange manuevering. Instead of a go around, he swooped off to the left, literally on very short / low final, and did what I thought was a re-attempt to come back and land... then he seemed to leave the area. I think all of the "eagle" talk on the radio, and the 6 planes holding short on the taxiway, made him leave to find another airport.
 
MAKG1 said:
A couple of PAO folks I know have gone out there, though I haven't yet. It's a good cross-country destination, as it's like 50.1 nautical miles from PAO. It looks hard to spot, based on the satellite photos.

Petaluma looks to be a better airport, and it's only a few miles further. The risk there is the swarm of ultralights, which makes for an "interesting" pattern. And the seemingly local habit of reporting in "over the foothills," which to my unfamiliar eye could be three different directions.

So far, the only runway I've rejected was the turf runway at Columbia. It's 2200 feet, and it was hot as heck, and the departure end points at a couple of hangars and some nearby terrain. With the turf and density altitude penalties, I didn't think there was quite enough margin on the takeoff in the 180 HP 172N I was in. On a cool day, it will be fine, as long as it isn't mucky.
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Also, a note about skypark: as you can see on the sectional it is close enough to shellville to overlap patterns - almost. Before you go to Skypark, visit their site and download the PDF with procedures. Both runways have names written on them.... so be sure you are at the right airport. The nice thing about Skypark is that there is a major road that can help act as your downwind for the preferred calm wind runway.

I have been to Skypark many times:

1. During my training, went there for short field landings, there are obstacles too.

2. After my cert, I drove there to the weekly Saturday $5 BBQ with the EAA chapter around noon. Every week, rain or shine, lots of pilots - I believe this airport is owned by the pilots.

3. I took a taildragger lesson at Skypark's only flight school in a Citabria.

A GREAT LITTLE AIRPORT.
 
Skypark is longer than my home airport (PAO), so anyone who told me not to go there because it is too short would have some 'splainin' to do!

A 1966 C-150 manual I have indicates that at gross weight on a 100 degree day, the landing distance over a 50 foot obstacle would be 1150 feet, and the takeoff distance over a 50 foot obstacle would be 1551 feet.
 
I like the "three strike" rule - when you have three significant deviations from what you expected to happen, terminate the flight as soon as possible. Once you're safely on the ground you can re-assess as needed.
 
Oh, and I'll add that if I haven't flown for a while, or I'm flying an aircraft (not type, but actual aircraft), I'll spend extra time in the preflight, the run-up, and the flight paying particular attention to critical areas/matters. Preflight includes review of systems/limits from the AFM & closer calculation of W&B/required distances/climb rates.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
What are your routine limits, rules, and regulations?
.
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Have an out. Also called an alternative in some cases.

Some have given a turn back altitude, some said stay ahead of the airplane, etc. Those are examples of how people have thought ahead of time how to deal with (or avoid) a situation so that if it arises the reaction is more timely and reasoned.

Many of us, including me, include some item because we got scared once but that is no real reason others should use it.

I'd have been more impressed with the almost-CFI if instead of advising you on whether you should land somewhere (look at how much I know and how well I apply it) he had asked you some casual questions about the conditions there which would have been a learning experience for you - how long is the runway? What is the density altitude, about? what is the wind speed and direction? What is your airplanes capabilty? What is your capabilty?
 
jnmeade said:
Have an out. Also called an alternative in some cases.

Some have given a turn back altitude, some said stay ahead of the airplane, etc. Those are examples of how people have thought ahead of time how to deal with (or avoid) a situation so that if it arises the reaction is more timely and reasoned.

Many of us, including me, include some item because we got scared once but that is no real reason others should use it.

I'd have been more impressed with the almost-CFI if instead of advising you on whether you should land somewhere (look at how much I know and how well I apply it) he had asked you some casual questions about the conditions there which would have been a learning experience for you - how long is the runway? What is the density altitude, about? what is the wind speed and direction? What is your airplanes capabilty? What is your capabilty?
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This falls into the category, IMHO, of being ahead of the plane.

My last IPC was done on a day that was basically VFR with a few scattered cells in the region. We did an ILS at CHO, a VOR approach to OMH, then the published missed to shoot the LOC at Culpeper. A few light raindrops on the ILS, but basic VFR conditions applied. OMH was VFR conditions. On the approach to Culpeper, my CFI noted a rain cell on the approach path close to the airport - the Stormscope showed no electrical activity. We were talking to ATC, which was painting light rain near the airport. No sweat, I requested and picked up a pop-up clearance from Potomac Approach, and was immediately cleared for the LOC approach. Not 30 seconds later, CFI noted lightning, the stormscope lit up, and we heard static in the radio. Lightning straight ahead. Before my CFI could get the words "state intentions" out to me, I had called Potomac, advised that we were breaking off the approach, and requesting a GPS approach back into HEF (which got us immediate vectors & clearance to Manassas).

We launched with the knowledge that cells may pop up, I had thought through contingencies along the way, and I knew where the "outs" were. Although IFR gives you a lot more to think about, the fundamentals are like VFR flying where you might look for suitable landing spots along the way if something crops up.
 
When I flew for a living we checked the weather and then we went.

For pleasure, around here, "Don't fly on the day of the front."
 
- Sterile cockpit taxiing, on departure, within four miles when landing VFR (and can start farther out at a busy or unfamiliar field) and upon beginning descent for an instrument approach.
- Takeoff briefing: Who has the controls, who has the radios, runway for departure, abort point, turnaround altitude for engine failure, initial heading and altitude.
- Lineup check on runway: Runway number, verify heading, intersections clear.
 
1. I always physically check the fuel level before each flight

2. Just before turning onto the runway, I run this flow:
a. Fuel Selector - Both
b. Flaps - Set
c. Autopilot - Off
d. Mixture/Prop/Carb Heat - In
e. Trim - Set
f. Lights - On
g. Ignition - Both
h. Primer - In and Locked
i. Speak aloud the turn back altitude (in MSL) and direction, left or right. Altitude is usually 1000 agl and turnback direction is into the wind.
​
3. After rolling:
a. Airspeed alive, oil pressure, oil temp, RPM
b. Don't touch the engine till 1000' AGL​
 
JohnAJohnson said:
1. I always physically check the fuel level before each flight

2. Just before turning onto the runway, I run this flow:
a. Fuel Selector - Both
b. Flaps - Set
c. Autopilot - Off
d. Mixture/Prop/Carb Heat - In
e. Trim - Set
f. Lights - On
g. Ignition - Both
h. Primer - In and Locked
i. Speak aloud the turn back altitude (in MSL) and direction, left or right. Altitude is usually 1000 agl and turnback direction is into the wind.
​
3. After rolling:
a. Airspeed alive, oil pressure, oil temp, RPM
b. Don't touch the engine till 1000' AGL
​
Click to expand...

If the wind is straight down the runway, which direction do you turn?
 
It has been a while since I've flown with a passenger. Usually we don't converse during take off or while on final, however once a positive rate of climb is established, talk away unless the radios are busy.

When I'm preparing to take the active, I'm checking for traffic in both directions, double checking fuel, fuel pump, gauges are in the green, etc.

Once power is added, if something doesn't feel right, I'll abort the take off. If I'm still not at V1 by 65% runway consumption, it's time to abort.

I think the most important is to keep an eye out for any aircraft movement, as you never know what that other pilot is thinking or going to do.
 
I like to brief the co-pilot checklist with my passengers.
 

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Honestly, I've never asked my passengers to STFU. if I need to communicate I'll tell them but it's never been a problem in the past.
 
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