Lazy 8s

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falconkidding

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Falcon Kidding
Well finally doing commercial stuff and haven't had any trouble with any of the maneuvers except the lazy 8. Flying an arrow using 21mp and 2400rpm, 1st half of maneuver is good 2nd half it just goes to hell. i'm either high and fast or on altitude and fast at the 180 degree point. Any tips?
 
That's the only maneuver I ever could do.
Not sure what the PTS (or whatever it's called now) maneuvers are now, but the eights where you changed altitudes and the chandelles were always rough. Contrary to popular belief, a chandelle is not a climbing 180° turn.
 
Maybe letting the nose drop too fast or too much pitch down on the reversal.
 
Pay attention to rudder usage. The nose needs to be moving at about the same speed throughout. When you are climbing, right rudder may be needed to slow down the turn. It surprises me how rudder needs to be used to get the lazy 8 right.
 
Try using less power. Try reducing your turn rate/roll rate during the second half. Hard to say what exactly is wrong without seeing it.
 
All I know is, every time I had to do one, the instructor would show me how and say "see how nice that is?"
Then I'd do one just like it and the instructor would say "no, no, you want it to be lllaaaazzzy at the top, here let me show you again" And he'd do it the same way I did it (actually I thought mine was better). And so it went. But I always got signed off, well both times.
 
Don't use your ailerons. This sounds crazy I know. As you add back pressure use very little aileron pressure, not movement, input in the direction of the turn & as you add back pressure the angle of bank will naturally increase. I teach my students to only use two fingers only on the yoke for back pressure. Lazy is the key. It's not a chandelle.

Elevators & rudders should be in constant, slight motion.
 
saddletramp said:
Lazy is the key.
Click to expand...

Good point.

In a Citabrias, it was fun - and to my mind much easier - to do them as a series of wingovers, allowing the bank to get to 45° or 60°at maximum. But that's specifically NOT what the FAA wants.

And I agree that the second half is much harder - to me it seems to drag on forever and I find it very hard not to "cheat" a bit with rudder to make it work out.

Last summer I did a few in my Sky Arrow as a review for my CFI reinstatement ride. The Lazy 8 starts at about :45 in:


I had not done them in years, and was happy enough with how they turned out. Definitely NOT to say they were anywhere near perfect nor immune from criticism!

As an aside, that's Ducktown, TN below me, and I was using the horizon "vanishing point" of US64 running west to Cleveland, TN as my reference point.
 
Slow and steady. Don't overthink the maneuver. There's a reason why they're called lazy 8's. The plane does most of it on its own. Don't rush through it.
 
FastEddieB said:
In a Citabrias, it was fun - and to my mind much easier - to do them as a series of wingovers, allowing the bank to get to 45° or 60°at maximum. But that's specifically NOT what the FAA wants.

And I agree that the second half is much harder - to me it seems to drag on forever and I find it very hard not to "cheat" a bit with rudder to make it work out.
Click to expand...
When teaching Lazy 8s, I usually started with 45-60 degree bank wing overs and gradually back down from there...I think it's a better illustration of how the Lazy 8 actually allows the airplane to fly most of it rather than forcing it around.

In the airplanes that I tried it, I could get to the point where I could take my hand off the yoke at the 45-degree point and let the airplane fly itself through the 180-degree point.
 
jordane93 said:
Slow and steady. Don't overthink the maneuver. There's a reason why they're called lazy 8's.
Click to expand...
Yup...and it has nothing to do with it being a slow maneuver.

Although the FAA apparently decided to give up on explaining that, too, because it's no longer in the AFH.:rolleyes:
 
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dmspilot said:
Try using less power. Try reducing your turn rate/roll rate during the second half. Hard to say what exactly is wrong without seeing it.
Click to expand...

This.

Had same problem. Watched a horrible King video on Comm Maneuvers. They said if you are experiencing what you are experiencing, reduce power at the beginning. I tried it. Worked perfect. Guess the video wasn't so horrible...
 
So finally got back in the plane the other day with a different instructor, flew them much more aggressively in pitch and that seemed to solve it. 90 degree point was higher but a lot slower at 75ish mph so I could get down to altitude at the 180 degree point and on speed at 140ish.
 
falconkidding said:
So finally got back in the plane the other day with a different instructor, flew them much more aggressively in pitch and that seemed to solve it. 90 degree point was higher but a lot slower at 75ish mph so I could get down to altitude at the 180 degree point and on speed at 140ish.
Click to expand...

What arrow are you flying?
Our Arrow (1974 200hp) maneuvering speed is 131 mph indicated at max gross.
The maneuver is to be done at or below maneuvering speed, and at the top of maneuver right near stall speed (about 5 to 10 knots so right where a stall light would come on)
I do it at 16 or 17" manifold and 2400 rpm. Gives me about 115 mph indicated.
It makes it SOOOO much easier if you don't have to eat through a bunch of altitude with this maneuver. At my power settings I was doing about 300 to 500 depending on how the plane is loaded and fuel used.

But adding to what everyone else said, don't focus on precise numbers and specific controls. It's lazy for a reason. Also keep an eye outside the plane. Although it's doable staring at your directional gyro, altimeter, and airspeed it is easier if you go outside the window and trace the 8 with the nose.
 
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