Law enforcement overreaction?

[Maxmosbey]

Someone needs to oversee your posts.

I told Tony this weekend that I was spending way too much time in the Spin Zone, and had to stay out of it. I think that in some way he is responsible. He should have done something about it.

 

[Clark1961]

Hmmm....

Who oversees the overseers, eh?

That's not the same as "There is no oversight."

But if the oversight is a sham then for all intents and purposes there is no oversight at the level Max stated. Should oversight be measured in terms of the geologic time scale? How many generations must pass before the courts or legislature can change something deeply rooted into the system?

 

[dmccormack]

I told Tony this weekend that I was spending way too much time in the Spin Zone, and had to stay out of it. I think that in some way he is responsible. He should have done something about it.

He should yell at you and shake his finger.

And say mean things.

And then you should sue.

 

[alaskaflyer]

I guess there is simply no personal responsibility anymore, everyone wants a payout.

[/partial sarcasm]

 

[alaskaflyer]

Yes, but that doesn't mean "We'll start by reducing the penalties of those that we TRUST to protect us.

So how much is the victim out and how much should be paid?

 

[SkyHog]

But if the oversight is a sham then for all intents and purposes there is no oversight at the level Max stated. Should oversight be measured in terms of the geologic time scale? How many generations must pass before the courts or legislature can change something deeply rooted into the system?

Blam! That's what I mean.

Imagine if you will:

I allegedly commit larceny. I am reviewed by my best friends, who are known to also commit larceny. No need for a trial, since my friends are reviewing the case. They find that the item I took should have been mine anyway, but there may have been a better, nicer way to get the product, say, maybe by paying for it.

The official ruling states that I must pay a small percentage of the value the item would have sold for, and I admit wrongdoing by stealing the item in the first place. No need for jail, since they have determined that it is not necessary.

Pretty fair system, isn't it?

 

[SkyHog]

So how much is the victim out and how much should be paid?

That's not for me, you, or the force to decide....

 

[SkyHog]

I guess there is simply no personal responsibility anymore, everyone wants a payout.

[/partial sarcasm]

Take the payout out of the scenario, and the issue still remains (and you're arguing my point): There is no responsibility on the side of the force when their buddies are the ones handing down the punishment.

 

[tonycondon]

yep when i saw max post on this one i though 'oh i bet he's going to wish he hadn't' I shouldve stopped him

 

[dmccormack]

But if the oversight is a sham then for all intents and purposes there is no oversight at the level Max stated. Should oversight be measured in terms of the geologic time scale? How many generations must pass before the courts or legislature can change something deeply rooted into the system?

Welcome to the System.

Laws change slowly (see The Federalists Papers for an explanation on why this is as it should be).

Are there inconsistencies in state, local, county, park, and other police SOPs?

Yeah, there is.

Is there a means to appeal?

Yes, there is.

Will that ensure you never get roughed up, yelled at, or otherwise messed with?

Nope.

 

[dmccormack]

Take the payout out of the scenario, and the issue still remains (and you're arguing my point): There is no responsibility on the side of the force when their buddies are the ones handing down the punishment.

Judges and Police are hardly "buddies."

In fact, in some jurisdictions, there's a downright adversarial relationship.

 

[SkyHog]

Judges and Police are hardly "buddies."

In fact, in some jurisdictions, there's a downright adversarial relationship.

Show me a place where the Internal Review board is made up of judges...

 

[dmccormack]

Show me a place where the Internal Review board is made up of judges...

An "internal" review board is not the citizen's path for appeal.

There are a myriad of advocacy groups more than happy to help fashion a civil suit against LE.

Less formal, but effective, is a letter to an elected official.

 

[SkyHog]

An "internal" review board is not the citizen's path for appeal.

There are a myriad of advocacy groups more than happy to help fashion a civil suit against LE.

Less formal, but effective, is a letter to an elected official.

Or we could expect them to handle themselves in accordance with the same laws they enforce, and have them go to court like we do when they break those laws (like, for example, attempted vehicular homicide (which I'm about 99% sure I'd be charged with if I pitted a car with 3 children in the backseat), or false imprisonment).

But it sure is nicer to just blindly follow their process and say "Well, there's a review board, that's good enough!"

 

[Clark1961]

Welcome to the System.

Laws change slowly (see The Federalists Papers for an explanation on why this is as it should be).

Are there inconsistencies in state, local, county, park, and other police SOPs?

Yeah, there is.

Is there a means to appeal?

Yes, there is.

Will that ensure you never get roughed up, yelled at, or otherwise messed with?

Nope.

When it's your turn to get shot for having a soft drink can in your hand while in bed and the responsible officer gets a 30 day suspension be sure and come back and tell everyone about how wonderful and correct things are.

 

[dmccormack]

Or we could expect them to handle themselves in accordance with the same laws they enforce, and have them go to court like we do when they break those laws (like, for example, attempted vehicular homicide (which I'm about 99% sure I'd be charged with if I pitted a car with 3 children in the backseat), or false imprisonment).

But it sure is nicer to just blindly follow their process and say "Well, there's a review board, that's good enough!"

I suppose it must be tough there in whatever People's Republic you're in.

The rest of us have Civil Law.

 

[alaskaflyer]

When it's your turn to get shot for having a soft drink can in your hand while in bed and the responsible officer gets a 30 day suspension be sure and come back and tell everyone about how wonderful and correct things are.

Was it your turn at some point?

 

[Clark1961]

Was it your turn at some point?

Thanks for your interest but nope, I've not been shot. However it happened in Denver and I believe it to be a fair illustration of how bad the system is here.

In this particular case the police thought a bad guy was in an apartment but instead of being patient and making sure they fully understood the situation they decided to go in through a window. The man who was shot was sleeping in a bedroom when the police went in. The story is the policeman saw the shiny can in his hand and decided it was a gun. Too bad for the victim that he liked to take a softdrink to bed I guess. One thing is certain is that we'll never know how he felt about being shot because he died at the scene. And by the way, the guy who was killed was not the guy the police were looking for.

I don't recall whether or not dismissal from the force was recommended for the shooter but the punishment was negotiated down to a short suspension on the basis of similar penalties for similar transgressions in the past. In other words, the system cannot right a wrong now because it didn't right a wrong in the past.

Corruption takes many forms. The particular form in Denver is ugly but perhaps not as bad as some. The fact remains that the system needs to change.

 

[dmccormack]

Corruption takes many forms. The particular form in Denver is ugly but perhaps not as bad as some. The fact remains that the system needs to change.

And the changed system will be.....?

 

[SkyHog]

And the changed system will be.....?

Accountability: Have police officers go to court like we do for crimes. Let the victim's peers pass judgment.

 

[Clark1961]

And the changed system will be.....?

Something better, quite obviously. The manager of safety has made several proposals but so far the police union has managed to side track them through the bargaining agreement. In other words the police refuse to accept responsiblity for their actions and they know that as long as they stick together they can continue to get away with it. At some point the union leadership needs to get honest but that's obviously not going to happen.

I suspect change will be forced on them at great pain to the taxpayers of the city and state eventually. Maybe a few more multi-million dollar settlements for police misconduct will force the issue in this time of budget deficits.

Of course there will always be people who say that it's ok only a few people get beat-up or severely injured or killed. No big deal and we don't need to change anything. Oh and isn't it terrible when people don't respect and support police even though they tolerate criminals in their ranks.

 

[CrashAxe]

This thread cracks me up, LOL.

In a lot of other threads on POA and other aviation boards, people bemoan how pilots and GA are misunderstood, demonized by the ignorant press, savaged by money-grubbing lawyers, and judged poorly by those with no experience or knowledge of the aviation field.

And then the people on the same board do the exact thing to another specialized group.

The irony is striking.

 

[dmccormack]

This thread cracks me up, LOL.

In a lot of other threads on POA and other aviation boards, people bemoan how pilots and GA are misunderstood, demonized by the ignorant press, savaged by money-grubbing lawyers, and judged poorly by those with no experience or knowledge of the aviation field.

And then the people on the same board do the exact thing to another specialized group.

The irony is striking.

Yep.

 

[SkyHog]

This thread cracks me up, LOL.

In a lot of other threads on POA and other aviation boards, people bemoan how pilots and GA are misunderstood, demonized by the ignorant press, savaged by money-grubbing lawyers, and judged poorly by those with no experience or knowledge of the aviation field.

And then the people on the same board do the exact thing to another specialized group.

The irony is striking.

So just to make sure I understand then....

Holding police accountable for their actions is wrong.

Is that the deal? I'm pretty sure we're held accountable for our actions as pilots.

 

[dmccormack]

So just to make sure I understand then....

Holding police accountable for their actions is wrong.

Is that the deal? I'm pretty sure we're held accountable for our actions as pilots.

You're confusing ideal vs. reality.

In reality, pilots are only held "accountable for thier actions" after the crash. Years of poor judgement and/or bad actions may precede the final accounting.

In some jurisdictions, the police are not as accountable for their actions as they ought to be (see Philadelphia under Rizzo).

But then the gears of justice slowly grind, and eventually there is an adjustment.

Are the adjustments always made in time to protect the individual?

Very often (sadly) , no.

 

[Clark1961]

This thread cracks me up, LOL.

In a lot of other threads on POA and other aviation boards, people bemoan how pilots and GA are misunderstood, demonized by the ignorant press, savaged by money-grubbing lawyers, and judged poorly by those with no experience or knowledge of the aviation field.

And then the people on the same board do the exact thing to another specialized group.

The irony is striking.

Pilots don't hold others against there will. Pilot's don't recommend charges to the DA office against others. The classes are not equal.

Your irony meter requires calibration if not replacement, my friend.

p.s. The vast majority of pilots salaries aren't funded by taxes.

 

[CrashAxe]

So just to make sure I understand then....

Holding police accountable for their actions is wrong.

Is that the deal? I'm pretty sure we're held accountable for our actions as pilots.

I said that holding police accountable for their actions is wrong? Really? Where? Which of my posts in this thread or on this board?

In regards to your posts, do you really believe that:

1. Cops are jerks out to ruin your day by making you go to court for speeding just a little;

2. Cops are not accountable for their actions;

3. Cops cover up wrongdoing by other cops as standard practice;

4. Police agencies don't punish officers who screw up, either intentionally or accidently;

5. And, cops face no accountability?

 

[SkyHog]

Point by point:

1. Cops are jerks out to ruin your day by making you go to court for speeding just a little;

Some cops are jerks. 1 is too many, and unfortunately, that 1 is protected by his/her badge.

2. Cops are not accountable for their actions;

They may not be. Unfortunately, they are not required to be

3. Cops cover up wrongdoing by other cops as standard practice;

Standard enough. There's been a number of public cases recently. How many never got public? Standard or not, if it happens once, it needs to be fixed. We trust these men and women with our lives in many cases.

4. Police agencies don't punish officers who screw up, either intentionally or accidently;

They punish as they see fit, not always as the public needs for closure or to prevent a similar occurrence in the future. Again, once is too many times.

5. And, cops face no accountability?

Cops may not face accountability. But they ALWAYS should.

I do.

 

[CrashAxe]

Pilots don't hold others against there will. Pilot's don't recommend charges to the DA office against others. The classes are not equal.

Your irony meter requires calibration if not replacement, my friend.

I guess I didn't realize that all things have to be equal to make a comparison between two groups. LOL

There are some similarities I can think of that are present that shouldn't be overlooked:

Pilots are trusted by the government with the safety and lives of other people by the people at large, through the governmental action granting pilots licenses.

Pilots are given the authority to make life and death decisions involving others by statute (PIC Authority).

The actions of pilots are subject to a great deal of public and press scrutiny when something goes wrong.

The DA Part, well I don't really have a good answer for that one. You are right, cops can recommend prosecution of someone to the DA. The authority to actually charge someone or not eventually rests with the DA, however. You saw that in action in this MN incident when the DA declined to prosecute.

It may be somewhat tongue-in-cheek to say that pilots, like police officers, can file criminal charges against someone else with the DA, but it is true.

Am I saying that cops don't screw up? No.

Am I saying that there isn't corruption out there? Absolutely not.

Do I think there are people out there with badges who shouldn't be police officers? Absolutely. I've known some, and seen some in action.

I've dealt with crappy lawyers. It doesn't make them all bad.

I've seen abysmal care given by Doctors. I don't run around saying they are all incompetent.

Likewise, I don't think that people should look at the actions of the 10%er cops and come to the conclusion that all cops are corrupt, badge-heavy, unaccountable, and looking to make people's lives miserable. That is ignorant thinking.

 

[Clark1961]

I guess I didn't realize that all things have to be equal to make a comparison between two groups. LOL

Well if you want to compare apples and oranges then by all means have at it. Don't expect to detect irony though.

There are some similarities I can think of that are present that shouldn't be overlooked:

Pilots are trusted by the government with the safety and lives of other people by the people at large, through the governmental action granting pilots licenses.

I don't have a pilot license. I do have a certificate. Any other errors you wish to make?

Pilots are given the authority to make life and death decisions involving others by statute (PIC Authority).

This is a total non-starter. Care to try for something reasonable?

The actions of pilots are subject to a great deal of public and press scrutiny when something goes wrong.

Perhaps. Perhaps no more than a bad car wreck.

The DA Part, well I don't really have a good answer for that one. You are right, cops can recommend prosecution of someone to the DA. The authority to actually charge someone or not eventually rests with the DA, however. You saw that in action in this MN incident when the DA declined to prosecute.

Well then, I'll translate for you: there is no valid comparison.

It may be somewhat tongue-in-cheek to say that pilots, like police officers, can file criminal charges against someone else with the DA, but it is true.

Pointless like the rest of your argument. Why do you continue?

Am I saying that cops don't screw up? No.

Am I saying that there isn't corruption out there? Absolutely not.

Do I think there are people out there with badges who shouldn't be police officers? Absolutely. I've known some, and seen some in action.

I've dealt with crappy lawyers. It doesn't make them all bad.

I've seen abysmal care given by Doctors. I don't run around saying they are all incompetent.

Likewise, I don't think that people should look at the actions of the 10%er cops and come to the conclusion that all cops are corrupt, badge-heavy, unaccountable, and looking to make people's lives miserable. That is ignorant thinking.

Clearly you miss my point entirely. Nobody claimed that all policemen are incompetent or corrupt. That is conclusion you choose to draw entirely on your own. Oh well, one can show a path to knowledge but understanding is a whole 'nother issue. OBTW, you really should have picked up on the public servant bit. Ignoring that really destroys your argument on this issue.

 

[CrashAxe]

Why do you continue?

After reading your reply I too find myself asking "Why continue?" I enjoy a lively discussion, but when a civil discussion turns to condescension, the fun quickly ends for me. Blue skies, pardner.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

This seems relevant:

Schenectady mayor considers options, martial law over police woes

Schenectady mayor looking at all options to deal with police department

 

[SkyHog]

This seems relevant:

Schenectady mayor considers options, martial law over police woes

Schenectady mayor looking at all options to deal with police department

Just silly, Kent. We can't go around actually expecting decent behavior fro 100% of police officers in Schenectady, can we?

edit: Just read the second article too....that's interesting. Martial Law is a pretty drastic step. Hopefully they're smart enough to set up a replacement force that has no internal review board and instead has real accountability for their actions, both positive and negative.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Just silly, Kent. We can't go around actually expecting decent behavior fro 100% of police officers in Schenectady, can we?

Ah, but on the other side of things, it seems that they will be held accountable! In the "shoot 'em all and let g-d sort 'em out" kind of way, at least.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Did you guys hear this story from Dallas? It's all the news here, don't know if it made national stories or not:

http://www.nbcdfw.com/sports/football/Dallas-Officer-Delays-NFL-Player-as-Relative-Died-.html

Watch the video partway down the left side of the page. Nurses came out and TOLD the cop that the mother-in-law had coded for the third time, but the cop wouldn't let him go... and the family member died while he was out in the parking lot being held by the officer.

 

[SkyHog]

Did you guys hear this story from Dallas? It's all the news here, don't know if it made national stories or not:

http://www.nbcdfw.com/sports/football/Dallas-Officer-Delays-NFL-Player-as-Relative-Died-.html

Watch the video partway down the left side of the page. Nurses came out and TOLD the cop that the mother-in-law had coded for the third time, but the cop wouldn't let him go... and the family member died while he was out in the parking lot being held by the officer.

Yet he gets suspended WITH pay.......

 

[gprellwitz]

While heartless and unfeeling (okay, they're pretty much synonymous), the officer was obeying the letter of the law (like an automaton .) So I think suspension with pay and some additional sensitivety training probably is in order.

But in the article, what do the last two paragraphs about the person's football career have to do with the story?

 

[SkyHog]

While heartless and unfeeling (okay, they're pretty much synonymous), the officer was obeying the letter of the law (like an automaton .) So I think suspension with pay and some additional sensitivety training probably is in order.

But in the article, what do the last two paragraphs about the person's football career have to do with the story?

The point behind mentioning it was that the guy was actually being a decent person, and not trying to use his fame to get out of the ticket, IMHO.

The police officer is a cold, heartless SOB, who doesn't deserve the trust we place in our officers. The man ran a red light AFTER checking that it was clear, so the force can't even claim that it was to protect the citizens in this case.

What disgusts me is that not only is he being paid while on suspension, his salary is being paid by the very people he is supposed to be protecting. I'd like to see this officer jailed for false imprisonment (armed, even, since he had a weapon on him), and I'd like to see him lose his job.

Most likely, he'll get a strong reprimand or we'll never learn what the ultimate punishment is, and he keeps his job.

 

[gismo]

What disgusts me is that not only is he being paid while on suspension, his salary is being paid by the very people he is supposed to be protecting. I'd like to see this officer jailed for false imprisonment (armed, even, since he had a weapon on him), and I'd like to see him lose his job.

Nick, I think he's "suspended with pay" during an investigation into his conduct and AFaIK that's SOP (and fair since any "punishment" should occur after the investigation is completed).

 

[SkyHog]

Nick, I think he's "suspended with pay" during an investigation into his conduct and AFaIK that's SOP (and fair since any "punishment" should occur after the investigation is completed).

Doesn't work that way at my current job or any other job I've ever held....