Last minute pattern adjustments- When?

[Jaybird180]

The manual for the C182 prescribes "prop high" in the pre-landing checklist. My personal preference is to do it during my pre-landing action items that I perform on the downwind leg. My CFI checkout pilot prefers I hold pushing the blue knob until short final. The manual calls for 2600RPM for balked landing (highest setting). What do you do and why?

The manual also calls for carb heat just prior to idle power. Again, I prefer to use carb heat when I've pulled power to 15" or below on my downwind decent, starting abeam the TDZ. I've convinced the CFI to go along with this. My reasoning is simply to get it done early, (preserving my attention on airspeed and glideslope) same as the blue knob above and cowl flaps. What do you do and why?

On rollout after lowering the nose, I retract flaps and go carb heat cold (while rolling down the runway toward my intended turnoff point). My reasoning is that it will help mitigate potential controllability issues in crosswind or gusty conditions (or if the pilots comes in too hot). I change carb heat lever to help provide as much protection as possible from unfiltered air. CFI doesn't like this. What do you do and why?

 

[dmccormack]

Flying any complex, I get it landing ready before pattern entry -- gear down, prop full forward, mixture rich, belts checked, loose stuff stowed, GUMPS check.

Once in the pattern carb heat (in a/c so equipped) comes on abeam the numbers. Speed reduced to approach speed, flaps down, power to achieve 500 FPM descent, GUMPS check.

Once field is made, full flaps, GUMPS check, land.

Roll off, sit on exit taxiway, clean up.

If you fly a retractable, you'll want to maintain a hands off discipline unless you know and confirm which lever/knob you're activating. Some airplanes are rather foolproof -- others, not so much.

Anyway, carb heat can come off on short final if you're so inclined. I remove carb heat on final in the Chief -- every HP helps in a go-around. It's not like you're injesting tons of greasy grimy gopher guts rolling out 300' on a paved runway.

 

[dmspilot]

I refrain from applying full RPM until after I've made my power (manifold pressure) reduction abeam the touchdown point...usually I do it on base or final, but not shortfinal. The reason is for noise and to prevent surging. Waiting until short final seems like a good way to forget.

I agree with you on the carb heat. Retracting the flaps after landing is personal preference, there are pros and cons to each method.

 

[poadeleted20]

The manual for the C182 prescribes "prop high" in the pre-landing checklist. My personal preference is to do it during my pre-landing action items that I perform on the downwind leg. My CFI checkout pilot prefers I hold pushing the blue knob until short final. The manual calls for 2600RPM for balked landing (highest setting). What do you do and why?

I get the prop when I go full flaps on short final. Until then, I'm only going to be using climb power, not full throttle, for a missed approach.

The manual also calls for carb heat just prior to idle power. Again, I prefer to use carb heat when I've pulled power to 15" or below on my downwind decent, starting abeam the TDZ. I've convinced the CFI to go along with this. My reasoning is simply to get it done early, (preserving my attention on airspeed and glideslope) same as the blue knob above and cowl flaps. What do you do and why?

With the Cont O-470 engine, I use carb heat any time MP is below the bottom of the green arc because that engine is notoriously susceptible to carb ice.

On rollout after lowering the nose, I retract flaps and go carb heat cold (while rolling down the runway toward my intended turnoff point). My reasoning is that it will help mitigate potential controllability issues in crosswind or gusty conditions (or if the pilots comes in too hot). I change carb heat lever to help provide as much protection as possible from unfiltered air. CFI doesn't like this. What do you do and why?

I don't touch nothin' but the flight controls, brakes, and throttle on roll-out 'cause I don't want to accidentally retract the gear on the runway. The fact that I fly a lot of different types and many of them are opposite "standard" (i.e., gear on the right and flaps on the left instead of vice versa) makes me vulnerable to the possibility of grabbing the wrong handle, and the squat switch may not save me if the plane's still light enough on its feet (or that switch has failed). If the wind is so strong that controllability is a problem after landing with the flaps extended, I must have made a bad decision already, and if I run into that problem, it's full power and go, not try to keep it on the ground when it's trying to fly itself out of my control.

 

[tonycondon]

in the 182 towplane i check carb heat on downwind and put the prop forward on final once the throttle is back out of the governing range.

 

[bob_albertson]

The manual for the C182 prescribes "prop high" in the pre-landing checklist. My personal preference is to do it during my pre-landing action items that I perform on the downwind leg. My CFI checkout pilot prefers I hold pushing the blue knob until short final. The manual calls for 2600RPM for balked landing (highest setting). What do you do and why?

The manual also calls for carb heat just prior to idle power. Again, I prefer to use carb heat when I've pulled power to 15" or below on my downwind decent, starting abeam the TDZ. I've convinced the CFI to go along with this. My reasoning is simply to get it done early, (preserving my attention on airspeed and glideslope) same as the blue knob above and cowl flaps. What do you do and why?

On rollout after lowering the nose, I retract flaps and go carb heat cold (while rolling down the runway toward my intended turnoff point). My reasoning is that it will help mitigate potential controllability issues in crosswind or gusty conditions (or if the pilots comes in too hot). I change carb heat lever to help provide as much protection as possible from unfiltered air. CFI doesn't like this. What do you do and why?

I don't like the idea of waiting till short final to advance the prop. A go-around is something that should be possible from any point on final approach (with limitations for mountainous terrain). You aren't in a proper configuration to do that if you wait until short final. There is nothing gained by waiting, and the increase in RPMs won't shorten the engine life any if you advance the prop earlier.

I don't touch anything while on the runway, but that is because I will fly some complex airplanes every now and again when I'm home. The idea is focus all of your attention on aircraft control while slowing to a safe taxi speed and avoid the accidental "flip of the wrong switch" that can come from multi-tasking while on the runway. If you don't plan on flying a complex aircraft then I wouldn't hark on you that much, maybe just point out some of the pitfalls of distracting yourself from aircraft control. I think a lot of CFI's think the ideal method is to exit the runway, come to a complete stop, run the after landing checklist, then once the plane has been configured for taxi.... onward ho. At smaller airports that's fine, and you won't always run into a problem doing that at the larger airports but if someone wants to fly professionally then they will need to learn how to configure while taxiing.

When I was an instructor, I used to always say - don't rush to the scene of an accident. You have plenty of time to configure the plane for taxi once you get off the runway.

 

[bob_albertson]

I get the prop when I go full flaps on short final. Until then, I'm only going to be using climb power, not full throttle, for a missed approach.

With the Cont O-470 engine, I use carb heat any time MP is below the bottom of the green arc because that engine is notoriously susceptible to carb ice.

I don't touch nothin' but the flight controls, brakes, and throttle on roll-out 'cause I don't want to accidentally retract the gear on the runway. The fact that I fly a lot of different types and many of them are opposite "standard" (i.e., gear on the right and flaps on the left instead of vice versa) makes me vulnerable to the possibility of grabbing the wrong handle, and the squat switch may not save me if the plane's still light enough on its feet (or that switch has failed). If the wind is so strong that controllability is a problem after landing with the flaps extended, I must have made a bad decision already, and if I run into that problem, it's full power and go, not try to keep it on the ground when it's trying to fly itself out of my control.

When you're in a 172RG near max gross and it's 104 outside.... climb power isn't gonna cut it . Altitude is your friend.... no need to skimp on it during a go-around

 

[jtheune]

I get the prop when I go full flaps on short final. Until then, I'm only going to be using climb power, not full throttle, for a missed approach.

With the Cont O-470 engine, I use carb heat any time MP is below the bottom of the green arc because that engine is notoriously susceptible to carb ice.

I don't touch nothin' but the flight controls, brakes, and throttle on roll-out 'cause I don't want to accidentally retract the gear on the runway. The fact that I fly a lot of different types and many of them are opposite "standard" (i.e., gear on the right and flaps on the left instead of vice versa) makes me vulnerable to the possibility of grabbing the wrong handle, and the squat switch may not save me if the plane's still light enough on its feet (or that switch has failed). If the wind is so strong that controllability is a problem after landing with the flaps extended, I must have made a bad decision already, and if I run into that problem, it's full power and go, not try to keep it on the ground when it's trying to fly itself out of my control.

Ron;
I'm not really arguing with you on this but I do wonder have you had problems with icing on a 470? I have a 470U and have perhaps 200 hours over the last 3 years in my plane. I rarely use carb heat although I do watch the engine carefully because I've been told some many times about it's propensity for icing up. I've never had a icing problem and am starting to wonder if we are operating on out of date information.

John

 

[mikea]

I go flat prop on the approach to the pattern. I'm talking 3-5 miles out on the 45. The whole prelanding checklist - lights, fuel pump on - gets run at the same time.

I trim for slow flight at 100MPH with 16" and a flat prop.

What would be the disadvantage to being setup and slow? It's not even that noisy at reduced power.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't like the idea of waiting till short final to advance the prop. A go-around is something that should be possible from any point on final approach (with limitations for mountainous terrain).

First, you don't need the prop full high RPM to execute a missed approach from 400 feet -- having it at the climb power setting is fine until you reach the point where an abort would be a "balked landing" rather than just a "missed approach." Second, with your line of thinking, you'd never extend flaps past the takeoff position. Finally, when you shove the prop full forward while the power is still fairly high, you often "wow" the prop and put a lot of stress on the crankshaft counterweights.

I don't touch anything while on the runway

I'm with you there, and not just for complex airplanes. Folks lose control of fixed gear planes on the runway all the time because they diverted their attention from flying the plane before the plane was done flying. That's why I teach folks to get it clear and stopped before diverting their attention that way.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not really arguing with you on this but I do wonder have you had problems with icing on a 470? I have a 470U and have perhaps 200 hours over the last 3 years in my plane.

Yup. And I've been flying behind them off and on for some 40 years.

I rarely use carb heat although I do watch the engine carefully because I've been told some many times about it's propensity for icing up. I've never had a icing problem and am starting to wonder if we are operating on out of date information.

Maybe it's just the temp/humidity conditions in which you fly. My experience includes a lot of time in the "heart of the envelope," which may explain why I've seen it so often.

 

[Fearless Tower]

When I first started out flying complex it was prop to high RPM on the downwind when doing the pre-landing checklist.

When I started flying round engines, I was taught to delay the prop to short final - reason why is two-fold: it is easier on the engine and easier on the neighbors.

When you are on short final and committed to land, you typically have the power back far enough that the prop is already at the low-pitch stops. Advancing the prop lever at that point results no surge or change in RPM.

If you do push the props forward on the downwind, you are going to see an increase in RPM, depending on how you do it, it could result in a surge and in bigger engines it will most definitely be heard by folks on the ground.

The key is that you must train this way for it to be SOP.

I started doing it when I got my initial training in the DC-3 and we briefed it that way - when PF called for the landing checklist, PNF completed it and reported 'landing checklist complete - holding on the props' In the DC-3, PNF delays advancing the props until the flare or at the point of the go-around if needed. When I am flying single pilot in GA planes, my props are part of the short final GUMPS check.

 

[mikea]

When I first started out flying complex it was prop to high RPM on the downwind when doing the pre-landing checklist.

When I started flying round engines, I was taught to delay the prop to short final - reason why is two-fold: it is easier on the engine and easier on the neighbors.

When you are on short final and committed to land, you typically have the power back far enough that the prop is already at the low-pitch stops. Advancing the prop lever at that point results no surge or change in RPM.

If you do push the props forward on the downwind, you are going to see an increase in RPM, depending on how you do it, it could result in a surge and in bigger engines it will most definitely be heard by folks on the ground.
...

I need try it out but I think the flat prop adds drag that you'd have to adjust for. I end up advancing the power with a flat prop to get on right side of the power curve. When I'm on final and making small power and pitch adjustments to stay on target on the right slope to my touchdown point the last thing I'd want to do is change the engine setup and chase back to where I was.

I just do it as I was taught. I don't need to get yelled at.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I was actually taught to leave the prop alone in the pattern and advance it only in the event of a go around, leaving it to a "clean up" item after exiting the runway.

I do retract my flaps on the runway while on the landing roll when flying a Piper, but there is no ambiguity over what the flaps are and what the gear is.

 

[bob_albertson]

First, you don't need the prop full high RPM to execute a missed approach from 400 feet -- having it at the climb power setting is fine until you reach the point where an abort would be a "balked landing" rather than just a "missed approach." Second, with your line of thinking, you'd never extend flaps past the takeoff position. Finally, when you shove the prop full forward while the power is still fairly high, you often "wow" the prop and put a lot of stress on the crankshaft counterweights.

I'm with you there, and not just for complex airplanes. Folks lose control of fixed gear planes on the runway all the time because they diverted their attention from flying the plane before the plane was done flying. That's why I teach folks to get it clear and stopped before diverting their attention that way.

You need the extra RPM on hot days with underpowered planes. Not sure why you'd assert something into any line of that that wasn't consistent with the writers intent of the original thought. Hopefully no one is aligned on final at a high power setting, that would negate the descent required at that point. I can get the prop full forward with the power at idle right after I am aligned with the runway. Where the power would be an issue are the folks flying 747 patterns. When I'm flying a light GA airplane, from the time I'm abeam the numbers the power comes way back and only small changes are made in the power setting to keep my descent path to my aiming point. If I'm aligned on final I'm about 3/4 of a mile or less from the runway.

At a controlled field where you are asked to do a 20 mile straight-in, props go in with the gumps flow. Still inside of a mile from the airport. If you go missed approach you need altitude as fast as you can. I don't differentiate a balked landing from a missed approach. They are treated the same by me. If I'm in a retract, when on final I run the gumps check (which includes props & power) and if I go around the power goes up and I pitch up enough to ensure I don't exceed Vlo so I can retract the gear while transitioning to the missed approach. After that I hold a pitch attitude that will give me Vx and I climb at that until I either reach the published missed altitude or an appropriate altitude to begin leveling for pattern. Props in help ensure the greatest climb performance. Of course we are talking a matter of technique. Nothing wrong with either method. I just choose to take from my training and trade climb performance for gentleness. Altitude is your friend , and experience tells me that most missed approaches won't be started from slightly less than pattern nor will terrain not be an issue if you fail to climb adequately. In the flat lands and cold weather areas you can get away with more as not only is there more wiggle room for terrain clearance but you have more performance from the engine to start with.

Bob

 

[dmccormack]

I push full RPM as I enter the pattern since I'm slowed to pattern speed 1.5 Vso or so).

 

[jesse]

You need the extra RPM on hot days with underpowered planes.

If that extra RPM is the difference between crashing and not crashing and you're at 400 ft you must have just lost your wings. In that case, all you can do is ask for lower, because another 100 RPM isn't going to save the day. You push the prop in at the point where the extra power on go-around would matter..which is on short final..and also is where the prop won't surge and jump in RPM. Better for the engine and better for the neighbors.

There simply isn't an airport with tight enough margins to where a power difference of a hundred RPM is going to make a damn difference during a go-around or missed approach when you're still at 400 AGL. You're still outputting horsepower. We're talking about minor prop efficiencies. Down lower? Maybe. But that's why you push it in down low.

The pilot is what introduces the largest performance error.

 

[jesse]

I push full RPM as I enter the pattern since I'm slowed to pattern speed 1.5 Vso or so).

I see no point to increase RPM. I'm already fat dumb and happy at whatever RPM I came into the pattern at. I'll push the prop in when I can do so without increasing RPM.

When I'm flying jumpers I'm coming into the pattern with the RPM at the bottom of the green arc. There just is no reason to suddenly crank the RPM up to redline, make all kinds of racket, and spin the engine faster.

 

[dmccormack]

You push the prop in at the point where the extra power on go-around would matter..which is on short final..and also is where the prop won't surge and jump in RPM. Better for the engine and better for the neighbors.

Why will it surge and roar if you're in the white arc when you push it full forward?

 

[dmccormack]

I see no point to increase RPM. I'm already fat dumb and happy at whatever RPM I came into the pattern at. I'll push the prop in when I can do so without increasing RPM.

There will be a minimal increase in RPM. I'm already slow.

 

[jesse]

I push full RPM as I enter the pattern since I'm slowed to pattern speed 1.5 Vso or so).

There will be a minimal increase in RPM. I'm already slow.

You say you fly Bonanzas. Let's think about what you're saying.

You are telling me you enter the pattern at 1.5 Vs0. That is like 75 knots. Riight.

I don't know many Bo pilots that enter the pattern with full flaps and gear down. Which is what you'd need to do. You'll also be carrying all kinds of power and flying slower then most aircraft would be. My students in the C150 might run your ass over.

If you come in at 1.5 Vs0 with the flaps and gear up in a Bo that is like 10 knots above stall and isn't a comfortable area to be flying.

Something isn't adding up with your above statements.

 

[dmccormack]

You say you fly Bonanzas. Let's think about what you're saying.

You are telling me you enter the pattern at 1.5 Vs0. That is like 75 knots. Riight.

I don't know many Bo pilots that enter the pattern with full flaps and gear down. Which is what you'd need to do. You'll also be carrying all kinds of power and flying slower then most aircraft would be. My students in the C150 might run your ass over.

If you come in at 1.5 Vs0 with the flaps and gear up in a Bo that is like 10 knots above stall and isn't a comfortable area to be flying.

Something isn't adding up with your above statements.

I have over 300 hours in Bonanzas and same in C/T182/205.

I've flown entire patterns at 70 KIAS in each (and is a good lesson for many Bo drivers).

But normally I plan on below 90 knots on pattern entry, with 80 downwind. Short final is 70.

Why would I "need" to be full flaps? Gear is down on pattern entry -- and checked and re-checked.

Re-read my post -- I go full flaps once field is made.

 

[bob_albertson]

I have over 300 hours in Bonanzas and same in C/T182/205.

I've flown entire patterns at 70 KIAS in each (and is a good lesson for many Bo drivers).

But normally I plan on below 90 knots on pattern entry, with 80 downwind. Short final is 70.

Why would I "need" to be full flaps? Gear is down on pattern entry -- and checked and re-checked.

Re-read my post -- I go full flaps once field is made.

Not to worry, he's having one of those... I know more than anyone.... Days.

As soon as he differentiates technique from right/wrong then he'll see that both techniques (and your airspeeds) are not an incorrect technique, but rather ones that he chooses to not agree with. These techniques aren't opinions, but arguing which one is best.... is an opinion

 

[bob_albertson]

If that extra RPM is the difference between crashing and not crashing and you're at 400 ft you must have just lost your wings. In that case, all you can do is ask for lower, because another 100 RPM isn't going to save the day. You push the prop in at the point where the extra power on go-around would matter..which is on short final..and also is where the prop won't surge and jump in RPM. Better for the engine and better for the neighbors.

There simply isn't an airport with tight enough margins to where a power difference of a hundred RPM is going to make a damn difference during a go-around or missed approach when you're still at 400 AGL. You're still outputting horsepower. We're talking about minor prop efficiencies. Down lower? Maybe. But that's why you push it in down low.

The pilot is what introduces the largest performance error.

You lack of experience with complex aircraft is actually showing here.

1) The RPM difference between cruise power setting (which is what the last setting will be) and full RPM isn't 100 RPM - unless you have been incorrectly setting cruise power. So that throws out your idea of no performance increase between cruise and max rpm settings. Your lack of proper application of the prop control is what causes your surges. I've never had one surge on me, even when using the prop to help me slow on a long final.

2) The sky above you does you no good, however the amount of air below you does. If you think short final is the most critical point for having maximum climb performance then we need to stick you in a twin with an engine that won't feather and have someone block the runway when you are 500 AGL. In the case of a single you don't know at what point you may need a max performance climb from the approach. Also, I can tell you haven't been to many airports, but I have. There are a lot of airports out there where you takeoff and land only one way because of terrain or other issues that hinder climb performance. I've been to many airports in Colorado where starting a missed approach from 1 mile out still requires a turn for terrain avoidance.

Bob

 

[TMetzinger]

With a constant speed prop, I leave the prop at the cruise setting until I do what I expect to be my last power reduction before the idle/flare, usually just before or after turning final. At that point the power is low enough that I don't make a lot of noise with the prop accelerating (and in something like a 206 with a 2700 RPM prop that noise can be significant). I don't forget - I'm already working on the throttle and it's a normal practice for me to just put the prop in. It's on my checklist there too.

In the event I have to go around, I push everything forward, throttle, prop, mixture (even though prop and mixture will likely already be forward).

My normal pattern speeds in a 182 would be 120 on the 45, slowing to 100 on downwind, slowing to maybe 85-90 on base and slowing to Vref on final, all depending on power settings. Different airplanes like the Mooney or Diamond DA40 that are difficult to slow down get earlier power and speed reductions, but the prop stays back until that last moment.

 

[n12365]

Everyone seems to have there own preference for when to do things. I only have about 75 hours of complex time, but this is how I do it. Fuel pumps on, MP down to ~20 inches, and carb heat on before entering the pattern. Gear down on downwind. Hold onto the gear handle until three green, then props full forward and carb heat off. Abeam the numbers, MP to ~15, flaps to 10. Turn base, flaps to 20. Turn final, flaps full. Wait until the airplane is stopped on the taxiway before cleaning it up.

Ryan

 

[Jaybird180]

Here's some amplifying information to my technique. I enter the pattern and begin slowing to 100-110 (if possible). I get to 90 on downwind and this is where I would do GUMPS if I didn't do it on entry or 3-5 miles out.

Abeam the power comes to 15" and since my RPM was usually about 2300-2450 anyway, moving the blue knob at 15" doesn't cause much (or none) surge on the 182. The DA40 would surge with this technique, and you could feel the tug at the shoulder harness from the deceleration forces.

Once power is at 15" it rarely gets increased unless I need to extend or I've boogered something else. 90-80-70 until final.

I don't like waiting until short final because as mentioned above, its a recipe for forgetting. I will reconsider my affection for cleanup during the rollout.

 

[jesse]

I have over 300 hours in Bonanzas and same in C/T182/205.

I've flown entire patterns at 70 KIAS in each (and is a good lesson for many Bo drivers).

But normally I plan on below 90 knots on pattern entry, with 80 downwind. Short final is 70.

Why would I "need" to be full flaps? Gear is down on pattern entry -- and checked and re-checked.

Re-read my post -- I go full flaps once field is made.

I was pointing out how silly it was for you to claim you enter at 1.5 vso as normal ops. In many hp complex AC that would be a really crappy profile. Now you say you don't enter at 1.5 vso for normal ops. Make up your mind?

 

[jesse]

You lack of experience with complex aircraft is actually showing here.

lmfao. Okay mr airline pilot guy. I'll let you battle this out with Ron, I don't have the time right now.

Replace 100 with X, it was just a value. Your lack of experience with complex pistons clearly shows by stating one should be turning 2700rpm for no good reason other then to make noise and **** folks off.

 

[dmccormack]

I was pointing out how silly it was for you to claim you enter at 1.5 vso as normal ops. In many hp complex AC that would be a really crappy profile. Now you say you don't enter at 1.5 vso for normal ops. Make up your mind?

Cranky tonight?



A36
Vs1 = 59 KIAS
59 x 1.5 = 88.5 KIAS

C205
Vs1 = 50 KIAS
50 x 1.5 = 80 KIAS

T182RG
Vs1 = 50 KIAS
50 x 1.5 = 80 KIAS

So, which HP complex would 80 KIAS be a "really crappy profile?"

What's your point again?

 

[bob_albertson]

Cranky tonight?



A36
Vs1 = 59 KIAS
59 x 1.5 = 88.5 KIAS

C205
Vs1 = 50 KIAS
50 x 1.5 = 80 KIAS

T182RG
Vs1 = 50 KIAS
50 x 1.5 = 80 KIAS

So, which HP complex would 80 KIAS be a "really crappy profile?"

What's your point again?

Read the post above yours. It really says all we need to know about the guy.

You can't support your posts with facts when opinions trump everything.... apparently ... and apparently flying less than a dozen complex aircraft entitles you to being an "expert" on all complex aircraft.

 

[dmccormack]

Read the post above yours. It really says all we need to know about the guy.

You can't support your posts with facts when opinions trump everything.... apparently ... and apparently flying less than a dozen complex aircraft entitles you to being an "expert" on all complex aircraft.

I'm not making broad brush assessments of Jesse...

I'm simply stating that folks who think they need to fly the pattern really fast in HP/complex AC usually don't need to be flying as fast as they suppose....

Most of these singles can be flown quite nicely at 1.5 Vso, landed in a short distance, and saved much wear and tear.

Instead, too many pilots won't even think of landing at airports with less than 4000' of pavement.

 

[bob_albertson]

I'm not making broad brush assessments of Jesse...

I'm simply stating that folks who think they need to fly the pattern really fast in HP/complex AC usually don't need to be flying as fast as they suppose....

Most of these singles can be flown quite nicely at 1.5 Vso, landed in a short distance, and saved much wear and tear.

Instead, too many pilots won't even think of landing at airports with less than 4000' of pavement.

Well, some of the best airports do have runways a lot shorter than that out there, so it is a good skill to have and be proficient at. The training environment is a hard mindset to get out of once you do it for a while, and what goes along with that mindset is that anything other than set parameters is unsafe.

Some pilots may not be able to safely fly a pattern that slow because of their lack of proficiency (putting them at a higher risk for a base/final stall-spin). For everyone else it isn't a big idea. Still, I think the entire disagreement (including yours about speed) comes down to him trying to impose his opinion as the only correct method. Just because someone doesn't do it a particular way does not mean it is automatically really crappy technique or sloppy flying. Some things out there can be an indicator of sloppy flying, as in "band-aids". Configuring for final and the point at which things are done has no bearing on the safety of flight.... it does bring differing opinions as to why people do things their way.

Bob

 

[Everskyward]

I'm simply stating that folks who think they need to fly the pattern really fast in HP/complex AC usually don't need to be flying as fast as they suppose....

Most of these singles can be flown quite nicely at 1.5 Vso, landed in a short distance, and saved much wear and tear.

But the wear and tear part comes from the speed you touch down, not the speed you flew your pattern, especially not downwind and base.

I'm one of the ones who waited until the prop was out of the governing range to go full forward which as I recall was on final not that far out.

 

[dmccormack]

Well, some of the best airports do have runways a lot shorter than that out there, so it is a good skill to have and be proficient at. The training environment is a hard mindset to get out of once you do it for a while, and what goes along with that mindset is that anything other than set parameters is unsafe.

Some pilots may not be able to safely fly a pattern that slow because of their lack of proficiency (putting them at a higher risk for a base/final stall-spin). For everyone else it isn't a big idea. Still, I think the entire disagreement (including yours about speed) comes down to him trying to impose his opinion as the only correct method. Just because someone doesn't do it a particular way does not mean it is automatically really crappy technique or sloppy flying. Some things out there can be an indicator of sloppy flying, as in "band-aids". Configuring for final and the point at which things are done has no bearing on the safety of flight.... it does bring differing opinions as to why people do things their way.

Bob

I get the difference between Doctrine (Stuff That Must be Done) and Technique (Different methods to achieve the same ends).

My preferred technique laid out in earlier posts helps me avoid a gear up landing, helps me manage my configuration and approach, and helps me land in shorter distances than most comparable aircraft I've observed.

I'm sure smarter, better, faster, more capable, more talented folks don't need that procedural crutch. Great.

 

[bob_albertson]

I get the difference between Doctrine (Stuff That Must be Done) and Technique (Different methods to achieve the same ends).

My preferred technique laid out in earlier posts helps me avoid a gear up landing, helps me manage my configuration and approach, and helps me land in shorter distances than most comparable aircraft I've observed.

I'm sure smarter, better, faster, more capable, more talented folks don't need that procedural crutch. Great.

I wasn't trying to imply that you were different from anyone. I was completely agreeing with what you said and then directing the rest at that towards Jesse's bashing of your earlier posts. Basically, saying that you're right and he seems unwilling to accept that other methods are in no way any less safe or wrong than what someone else might be doing.

Bob

 

[Sac Arrow]

Group hug?

 

[taters]

To the OP, Id wait till short final on the prop, You generally want to avoid low MP and High prop for a prolonged period of time. Even at 2300 RPM you should have bountiful power in a go-around...you might even find out that in some go-arounds climb power is plenty.

 

[jesse]

I wasn't trying to imply that you were different from anyone. I was completely agreeing with what you said and then directing the rest at that towards Jesse's bashing of your earlier posts. Basically, saying that you're right and he seems unwilling to accept that other methods are in no way any less safe or wrong than what someone else might be doing.

Bob

Perhaps you'd do better to contribute to the thread in an adult manner without attacking me. Way more productive.

Dan is a big boy and so am i. Neither of us are losing sleep over this conversation and I doubt either of us is upset at one another.

Enough of this "someone on the Internet is wrong" talk. I need I fly home..
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N1161F

 

[spiderweb]

Prelanding checklist complete on downwind (or before FAF, if on an approach), except for prop, which goes full in after turning final. On an approach, gear down and first notch of flaps at the FAF, prop full in +200 feet above DH. But as others have said, a go-around in a C182 doesn't really need full MP and in -that- case, prop full in, unless it is a true balked landing. Even from 200 feet, climb MP is plenty, and you won't be leaning on the yoke to prevent a power-on stall!