Las Cruces Cessna 421 crash - wrong fuel

[petrolero]

Re: Fuel Testers that detect water and Jet A?

Any $20 hydrometer off the internet.

Not very practical to have a glass hydrometer in the seat back pocket. Plus you'd need a pretty large fuel sample to have enough depth to float the thing if it is anything like my homebrewing hyrometers.

 

[MyassisDragon]

Re: Fuel Testers that detect water and Jet A?

T
Then there is the GATS jar which claims to "detect" Jet A

I have used this jar but only witnessed water. Any one know if this really works on Jet and how noticeable it is? (not talking about color)

It seems Jet would settle to the bottom of your tanks after a while so if you sumped it and got a jar full of Jet would the screen keep the jet fuel from pouring back through similar to the water or is the density too close?

6.1 100LL vs 6.8 Jet A

 

[petrolero]

Re: Fuel Testers that detect water and Jet A?

I have used this jar but only witnessed water. Any one know if this really works on Jet and how noticeable it is? (not talking about color)

It seems Jet would settle to the bottom of your tanks after a while so if you sumped it and got a jar full of Jet would the screen keep the jet fuel from pouring back through similar to the water or is the density too close?

6.1 100LL vs 6.8 Jet A

The one on Sporty's doesn't mention Jet A "detection" but the one on Aircraft Spruce does.

This fuel tester allows you to put preflight fuel samples back into your airplane (a great alternative to tossing sampled fuel onto the ground: a practice now discouraged by the EPA). Sample and check your fuel as always. Then, as sampled fuel is returned to the tank, a unique, built-in screen separates solids and non-petroleum contaminants, so only clean, pure fuel is returned to the tank. Reversible sump actuator fits both pin and petcock actuators. Wide mouth collector helps protect hands and clothing. Resilient plastic construction makes the GATS Jar virtually indestructible with normal handling.

So I think the "detection" is probably just because the jar is clear and you can supposedly see the color difference. meh. Got that already.

The incredible new GATS Jar allows a pilot to pour the fuel used in the preflight check back into the fuel tank without fear of water contamination. The jar uses a special separator screen that, when coated with avgas, forms a barrier to water and debris, yet allows passage of avgas. The GATS Jar also detects jet fuel in the event of inadvertent fueling of your aircraft with jet fuel. By using the GATS Jar, pilots can help protect the environment by pouring sample fuel back into the tank instead of on the ground.

Sounds like the paper test would be pretty easy to do to detect the presence of Jet A, but not mogas perhaps (can't say I've ever seen a mogas truck tho!)

 

[MAKG1]

Re: Fuel Testers that detect water and Jet A?

Sounds like the paper test would be pretty easy to do to detect the presence of Jet A, but not mogas perhaps (can't say I've ever seen a mogas truck tho!)

It's the same problem as detecting Diesel in gasoline. The paper test works just fine. Gasoline does not leave an oily residue, even if it isn't blue.

 

[danhagan]

So the engines stopped running, planes still can fly without engines, we've established that before. Why did this end in a crash?

No direct knowledge of exactly where they went in, but the 421 glides with a lot of energy, and there aren't many smooth places to stick it around there that don't contain big assed rocks that don't move when you hit them.

The area he crashed into is not level. There's a gun range there, that happened to have police practicing very close to the crash site. Police witnesses indicated plane came in level, clipped a sand dune while landing and flipped resulting in explosion.

 

[PaulS]

The area he crashed into is not level. There's a gun range there, that happened to have police practicing very close to the crash site. Police witnesses indicated plane came in level, clipped a sand dune while landing and flipped resulting in explosion.

Wow, it just wasn't these guys day......

 

[FloridaPilot]

Inexcusable. Pity this lames passengers. Even if you don't fuel the plane yourself, you still need to ALWAYS pull fuel sample and look at it in the sunlight. If at night, get a bright flashlight.

It's true, I have very little flight hours that that is one of the first things they teach on the ground.

 

[FloridaPilot]

Newbie question but wouldn't the engines run rough when you are doing a run up? Unless he had enough previous fuel to notice?

 

[MAKG1]

Newbie question but wouldn't the engines run rough when you are doing a run up? Unless he had enough previous fuel to notice?

Good question.

Run-up isn't anywhere near full power, and it can detonate at full throttle and not at 1700 RPM.

Another possibility (though I doubt a high time pilot would do this) is to switch tanks right before takeoff, as the PA-28 POH suggests (it doesn't actually say it).

 

[petrolero]

Re: Fuel Testers that detect water and Jet A?

It's the same problem as detecting Diesel in gasoline. The paper test works just fine. Gasoline does not leave an oily residue, even if it isn't blue.

I was saying you could easily detect Jet A in 100LL but not so much mogas in 100LL.

But then again, mogas in 100LL isn't going to cause a crash and may not even be noticeable.

The paper test is also quite practical in the sense that everyone has paper towels available. At least every plane I've ever owned or rented.

For those of us who own, another option would be to hang a giant paper poster of Barack Obama on the hangar wall and toss your fuel sample in his face every time you stick the tanks. That would provide me a certain amount of satisfaction in addition to checking for the presence of Jet A. Just sayin'

.

 

[sourdough44]

I was walking through our garage a while back and I noticed evidence of a fuel overflow near the car gas cap. When I asked my wife about it she said 'do you notice everything?'.

It can be those very subtle things, normally unnoticed, that one day bite you. That's one of the excuses pilots can use for being somewhat anal. One must do a lot of questioning in the flying environment, double checking much of the information that passes by.

 

[N747JB]

Newbie question but wouldn't the engines run rough when you are doing a run up? Unless he had enough previous fuel to notice?

Seems when these things happen, the airplane manages to get off the ground before all hell breaks loose. I don't know if it's residual fuel in the lines or it takes that long for the engines to destroy themselves.

 

[Henning]

Seems when these things happen, the airplane manages to get off the ground before all hell breaks loose. I don't know if it's residual fuel in the lines or it takes that long for the engines to destroy themselves.

If it's a weak percentage, it'll take a couple minutes to start melting down the piston heads. If you switch to a tank of pure Jet A, about 15 seconds will do the job.

 

[N747JB]

If it's a weak percentage, it'll take a couple minutes to start melting down the piston heads. If you switch to a tank of pure Jet A, about 15 seconds will do the job.

15 seconds is just long enough to get a 421 airborne I think this one went a good bit longer, a couple minutes maybe. Still not much time between pushing the throttles forward and a double engine failure!

 

[overdrive148]

Fuel contamination test results are up in the new thread

 

[Silvaire]

I've always thought having different nozzle sizes like at the car pumps for diesel and unleaded would stop this kind of mishap...

On account of there aren't a whole lot of 1974 cars on the road. Unless there were an AD issued to force every aircraft to install new filler necks it wouldn't be possible.

 

[Henning]

15 seconds is just long enough to get a 421 airborne I think this one went a good bit longer, a couple minutes maybe. Still not much time between pushing the throttles forward and a double engine failure!

He only took on 40 gallons so he's running highest a 50:50 mix most likely. If he had 100% mix the engine wouldn't have started.

 

[Henning]

On account of there aren't a whole lot of 1974 cars on the road. Unless there were an AD issued to force every aircraft to install new filler necks it wouldn't be possible.

But there IS an AD on this aircraft, so, what happened? Where did it go wrong that the ramper put the wrong fuel in?

 

[kgruber]

It is a pilot duty to always observe fueling operations. Even in the middle of the night, Iqaluit, -20°C, 30 KT winds. BTDT.

 

[Dead Stick]

It is a pilot duty to always observe fueling operations. Even in the middle of the night, Iqaluit, -20°C, 30 KT winds. BTDT.

That must have been you I saw out on the ramp that night. We had to wait until they had finished fueling you.

 

[dell30rb]

He only took on 40 gallons so he's running highest a 50:50 mix most likely. If he had 100% mix the engine wouldn't have started.

There is enough capacity in the lines and spiders to start it.

I'm with you though, for the plane to get through a run up and actually take off, had to be a lot of 100ll in the mix



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[Silvaire]

But there IS an AD on this aircraft, so, what happened? Where did it go wrong that the ramper put the wrong fuel in?

Well there is that and I'm going to flat out say that there is nothing that can be done to prevent something like this from EVER happening because the brain fart will always creep up sooner or later and somebody's gonna be cursing "Why doesn't this thing FIT!" as he puts Jet A into the tanks of a piston engined airplane.

It's human nature screw up.

 

[warthog1984]

Well there is that and I'm going to flat out say that there is nothing that can be done to prevent something like this from EVER happening because the brain fart will always creep up sooner or later and somebody's gonna be cursing "Why doesn't this thing FIT!" as he puts Jet A into the tanks of a piston engined airplane.

It's human nature screw up.

Or like somebody else posted, they leave the helicopter adapter on the Jet A hose and completely defeat the purpose of different nozzles altogether.

 

[Henning]

Or like somebody else posted, they leave the helicopter adapter on the Jet A hose and completely defeat the purpose of different nozzles altogether.

Yeah, if that happened it's going to be a problem if someone wants to push it.

 

[Jaybird180]

Or like somebody else posted, they leave the helicopter adapter on the Jet A hose and completely defeat the purpose of different nozzles altogether.

Does that shift liability, when the ramper defeats a safety mechanism? I'm speaking tort claims, not 91.3

 

[N747JB]

If it was a B model, which I believe it was, the tips only hold 50 gallons each and they are used for takeoff. So, he his best case mixture was 60/40 avgas to jet-a, more likely 50/50 or higher Jet-A to avgas.

There is enough capacity in the lines and spiders to start it.

I'm with you though, for the plane to get through a run up and actually take off, had to be a lot of 100ll in the mix



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[Henning]

Does that shift liability, when the ramper defeats a safety mechanism? I'm speaking tort claims, not 91.3

No, Air Carriers operate under Strict Liability, they are liable no matter what happens.

 

[FlyingTiger]

Keep in mind, there is nothing stopping the air carrier from going after the FBO to recover at least some of their monetary liability. However, that most likely won't be necessary because the lawsuit will probably have the FBO as a named defendant right out of the gate. In the end, both insurance companies will contribute to a final settlement. Based on the facts, maybe something around 50%-50%?

 

[Henning]

Keep in mind, there is nothing stopping the air carrier from going after the FBO to recover at least some of their monetary liability. However, that most likely won't be necessary because the lawsuit will probably have the FBO as a named defendant right out of the gate. In the end, both insurance companies will contribute to a final settlement. Based on the facts, maybe something around 50%-50%?

Most definitely the insurance companies will spread around the costs, but this will be done typically in a cost effective manner. That is why they have the Strict Liability rules, so it only ends up in court with the public once, if that.

 

[B350ATP]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/medical-flight-got-wrong-fuel-crash

Fueled with Jet Fuel instead of 100LL. Always sample your fuel!

First and foremost, monitor the fueling

 

[oilburner]

Hope it is a long time before a diesel C-182 is based at my home airfield.

 

[B350ATP]

exact same thing happened in San Antonio in 1994 by the way

I was flying a Navajo based at the field at the time and we all heard about it

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001206X00743&ntsbno=FTW94FA082&akey=1

at many FBOs there are multiple line guys and the message to "top it off" given to one may not reach another, as the first one disappears to flag the arriving Lear, and you walk into the FBO lobby only to have another one ask for your fuel order. Even in todays age of radios etc.

this sounds dorky but I WRITE on a piece of paper, my tail number, and fuel request, and HAND IT to the line guy. I give a written request to the FBO girl. So in two places, my written fuel order is documented.

This is in addition to the obvious verbal.

Upon payment, I check that the receipt says the proper fuel. XXX gallons Jet A sold.

N12345
30 Gallons a side Tip Tanks of JET A

Also for those who say "I never let anyone fuel my bird" that may work at some places, but at many FBO's, their insurance policy only permits trained line personnel/etc to fuel the airplanes due to liability/legal concerns.

- former high school and college line boy and piston twin pilot

 

[overdrive148]

exact same thing happened in San Antonio in 1994 by the way

I was flying a Navajo based at the field at the time and we all heard about it

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001206X00743&ntsbno=FTW94FA082&akey=1

at many FBOs there are multiple line guys and the message to "top it off" given to one may not reach another, as the first one disappears to flag the arriving Lear, and you walk into the FBO lobby only to have another one ask for your fuel order. Even in todays age of radios etc.

this sounds dorky but I WRITE on a piece of paper, my tail number, and fuel request, and HAND IT to the line guy. I give a written request to the FBO girl. So in two places, my written fuel order is documented.

This is in addition to the obvious verbal.

Upon payment, I check that the receipt says the proper fuel. XXX gallons Jet A sold.

N12345
30 Gallons a side Tip Tanks of JET A

Also for those who say "I never let anyone fuel my bird" that may work at some places, but at many FBO's, their insurance policy only permits trained line personnel/etc to fuel the airplanes due to liability/legal concerns.

- former high school and college line boy and piston twin pilot

"Written statements were obtained from the two linemen who were on duty the morning of the accident. The first lineman said he serviced N741CA with 100LL fuel. The second lineman said he saw his co-workers driving the jet fuel truck. Later, he watched N741CA taxi for takeoff and observed "a white cloud of smoke come from behind the plane." "

See something, say something!

 

[B350ATP]

"Written statements were obtained from the two linemen who were on duty the morning of the accident. The first lineman said he serviced N741CA with 100LL fuel. The second lineman said he saw his co-workers driving the jet fuel truck. Later, he watched N741CA taxi for takeoff and observed "a white cloud of smoke come from behind the plane." "

See something, say something!

Excellent points. We are all a team. We had a line guy on a ladder fueling a Caravan (dont you love fueling Caravans?) by himself (always fun) and the large jet in front of him was about to start engines. I ran to the front of the jet, I believe a Citation X, and told the pilots via hand signals "time out" signal and they were super cool. Guy could have been blasted off the ladder, the Jet-A truck was one of those "baby trucks" or whatever some guys call them, not a big super tanker Jet-A truck which could block the jet blast.

No radios, those days everything was done via "sneakers" (shoes) per my boss

Just one of numerous, stories/adventures I had as a line boy, to include seeing two planes land gear up and another one crash (heard it over the radio) when the middle east students flew their 172 into a T-Storm.

 

[overdrive148]

Excellent points. We are all a team. We had a line guy on a ladder fueling a Caravan (dont you love fueling Caravans?) by himself (always fun) and the large jet in front of him was about to start engines. I ran to the front of the jet, I believe a Citation X, and told the pilots via hand signals "time out" signal and they were super cool. Guy could have been blasted off the ladder, the Jet-A truck was one of those "baby trucks" or whatever some guys call them, not a big super tanker Jet-A truck which could block the jet blast.

No radios, those days everything was done via "sneakers" (shoes) per my boss

Just one of numerous, stories/adventures I had as a line boy, to include seeing two planes land gear up and another one crash (heard it over the radio) when the middle east students flew their 172 into a T-Storm.

We're gonna need a bigger ladder...

I'd be worried about the jet starting for more than just getting pushed over, I'm actively fueling with vapors out of the top of the tank Although nothing as big as a Citation X has started with me behind it. Always have to watch out for each other, even for the pilots. They're human too y'know. You can bet I'd have gotten on the unicom if it was here to tell him he was smoking. Not sure what I'd do if it was a major airport like that though - maybe get a hold of the tower and tell them what I saw. Not sure if it'd be fast enough though.

One of the coolest things I did was this (review on AirNav). Dude was so relieved that he didn't leave his logbook and other personal things behind.

From Luke Downing on 28-Jul-2014

Great experience! Friendly environment, nice and clean terminal building, staff was more than accommodating. Having forgot some books in the terminal, FBO employee contacted me on the CTAF and drove them out to me on a cart. More than willing to be inconvenienced to make your stay comfortable.

 

[Henning]

We're gonna need a bigger ladder...

I'd be worried about the jet starting for more than just getting pushed over, I'm actively fueling with vapors out of the top of the tank Although nothing as big as a Citation X has started with me behind it. Always have to watch out for each other, even for the pilots. They're human too y'know. You can bet I'd have gotten on the unicom if it was here to tell him he was smoking. Not sure what I'd do if it was a major airport like that though - maybe get a hold of the tower and tell them what I saw. Not sure if it'd be fast enough though.

One of the coolest things I did was this (review on AirNav). Dude was so relieved that he didn't leave his logbook and other personal things behind.

From Luke Downing on 28-Jul-2014

Great experience! Friendly environment, nice and clean terminal building, staff was more than accommodating. Having forgot some books in the terminal, FBO employee contacted me on the CTAF and drove them out to me on a cart. More than willing to be inconvenienced to make your stay comfortable.

Jet exhaust isn't going to light kerosene vapors in any environment that wouldn't have already turned your body into ash.

 

[B350ATP]

my concern was the blast on him and him on the ladder with only the caravan pitot tube to hang onto.

i wouldnt be too concerned about "vapors" coming out of a fuel cap, to light Jet-A fuel you usually need a source of ignition. Jet-A flashpoint is 100F if I am not mistaken.

well, I guess you could bake a bowl of it in the oven and it would light off, but you get my point....

also, RE: being on ladders, observe how high the X's engines are off the ground. You don't want to be behind one, on a ladder

 

[Jaybird180]

We're gonna need a bigger ladder...

I'd be worried about the jet starting for more than just getting pushed over, I'm actively fueling with vapors out of the top of the tank Although nothing as big as a Citation X has started with me behind it. Always have to watch out for each other, even for the pilots. They're human too y'know. You can bet I'd have gotten on the unicom if it was here to tell him he was smoking. Not sure what I'd do if it was a major airport like that though - maybe get a hold of the tower and tell them what I saw. Not sure if it'd be fast enough though.

One of the coolest things I did was this (review on AirNav). Dude was so relieved that he didn't leave his logbook and other personal things behind.

From Luke Downing on 28-Jul-2014

Great experience! Friendly environment, nice and clean terminal building, staff was more than accommodating. Having forgot some books in the terminal, FBO employee contacted me on the CTAF and drove them out to me on a cart. More than willing to be inconvenienced to make your stay comfortable.

Why do we not use vapor seals on fuel nozzles like automotive fueling stations?

 

[PaulS]

Why do we not use vapor seals on fuel nozzles like automotive fueling stations?

Those are disappearing now, newer cars each have capture systems built into them.

 

[Henning]

Why do we not use vapor seals on fuel nozzles like automotive fueling stations?

Because it's not required by law.