Landing without clearance on checkride.

F

flyboy595

Pre-Flight
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
40
Display Name
Display name:
Flyboy595
So i was on my first checkride for my PPL. I had failed the slip to a landing so i was already going to have to retest. Everything else i had passed. As we approached my home airport, i was given pattern entry instructions. I entered on base as usual, and turned final. Realizing i had not been cleared to land, i radioed the tower and asked for clearance, assuming they just forgot since the airport was super busy. They didn't respond, as it was extremely busy. I radioed again, no response. I asked my DPE what i should do, as we were already on very short final. He told me just to go ahead and land. As the wheels touched, tower called for another aircraft to go around. I was handed over to ground as normal and parked, never given a number to call or anything. This was back towards the end of november. A week later, i passed my checkride, neither me nor my DPE thinking anything of the incident. Today, my old instructor called and stated that the rental company recieved a letter from the FAA about an incident on that day, and i was the only one who had flown the plane all day. Whats gonna happen with the FAA? Im terrified. :mad2:
 
Tom-D said:
Probably nothing, after they find that you were not a rated pilot when the incident happened.
Click to expand...

But i was acting PIC, which is what makes me nervous. But the fact that i asked 2 times if i was cleared, and than the examiner told me to land. I just thought it was weird the tower said nothing, and now a month and a half later my flight school gets a letter in the mail.
 
flyboy595 said:
But i was acting PIC, which is what makes me nervous. But the fact that i asked 2 times if i was cleared, and than the examiner told me to land. I just thought it was weird the tower said nothing, and now a month and a half later my flight school gets a letter in the mail.
Click to expand...

Federal wheels grind slowly.

The FAA will probably believe the failure was good enough.
 
EppyGA said:
Wonders why you listened to the DPE
Click to expand...

Listened to the DPE because as PIC i made a decision to listen to the guy sitting next to me with thousands of hours logged as a check pilot for a major airline.
 
flyboy595 said:
Listened to the DPE because as PIC i made a decision to listen to the guy sitting next to me with thousands of hours logged as a check pilot for a major airline.
Click to expand...

mistake 1.
 
I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. Claim 91.3... You needed to get the DPE on the ground.
 
Hope you still have the name of the DPE on that flight.
When FSDO calls, explain that you were a student pilot on a check ride with DPE (name).

Was the incident talked about on the debrief from the check ride? Or written on your pink slip?

Did you do the recheck with the same DPE?

Its a little late for a NASA filig.
 
flyboy595 said:
But i was acting PIC, which is what makes me nervous.
Click to expand...


Well, you were acting PIC..

Perhaps if you tell them that you were on a checkride, and failed that checkride.. Then that may be it.. But perhaps not..

Perhaps they will get the DPE's name, ask him additional questions (Like, why did you let this applicant land without clearance) and you will be in a He Said, She Said situation... Guess which one of you would win that arguement?

Maybe you should call the DPE first, and discuss? Or an aviation Lawyer..

Worst case, you are probably only looking at a ride with the FAA. Best case, the DPE probably has already done one..
 
BillTIZ said:
Hope you still have the name of the DPE on that flight.
When FSDO calls, explain that you were a student pilot on a check ride with DPE (name).

Was the incident talked about on the debrief from the check ride? Or written on your pink slip?

Did you do the recheck with the same DPE?

Its a little late for a NASA filig.
Click to expand...

Didn't file NASA because neither of us thought mush about it on the ground. Did a recheck with the same DPE, though it wasn't discussed on the ground or written on the pink slip. Again, he didn't think much of it or mention it again, so neither did i.
 
More than likely a PD (Pilot Deviation) was filed. There is already a thread on here where I explained what happens during a PD and what to expect.

Here is what I posted on the thread "Landed on wrong runway at towered airport"

Pilot Deviations (PD's) are filed through the ATQA system (Air Traffic Quality Assurance) and given a tracking number then assigned to the FSDO in the district where the deviation took place. An Inspector is assigned the file and must investigate, gather the information and close the file.

The Inspector will contact the pilot to get his/her side of the event, perhaps even get the tower tapes or controller statement plus any other evidence and then determine action.

In your situation the best thing to do is talk it over with the Inspector, let him know your screw up and then both of you come up with a remedial action. In this case 9 times out of 10 it just results in formal counseling which is handled over the phone. The Inspector makes a PTRS entry under the code of formal counseling and then closes out the ATQA which has a questionnaire section, so he'll be asking you about your total time, last medical, last flight review, etc, etc. This goes into a master database to help identify problems in the ATC system.

The chance of this becoming an enforcement or 709 ride are slim to none. Both of those processes take immense time and paperwork and the Inspector has enough other work pending that he's not going to the effort unless there are other circumstances involved which would force the issue.

The Warning letter is done through a system called SNAAP (Streamlined No Action and Administrative Action Process) which generates a warning letter that stays on file for 2 years and then is expunged. To generate a SNAAP requires opening an enforcement PTRS and the associated paperwork in Order 2150.3B, so once again this is only done if you are a repeat offender or there are other problems which would dictate it's use.

I've personally done lots of PD's and they were way down on the list of favorite jobs within the Inspector's duties. Like mentioned by others here if you showed a constructive attitude and willing to learn from the mistake I would get the information required, close the PTRS and ATQA and close the file with formal counseling.
 
RotorAndWing said:

close the file with formal counseling.
Click to expand...

What exactly is involved in formal counseling? Like going to meet someone for an hour a couple of times? And how will this affect a possible career as an airline pilot? Sorry for all the questions, im just freaking out haha. Also, can it still be considered a pilot deviation of i wasnt given a number to call or the tower didnt say anything about it?
 
Last edited:
flyboy595 said:
What exactly is involved in formal counseling? Like going to meet someone for an hour a couple of times? And how will this affect a possible career as an airline pilot? Sorry for all the questions, im just freaking out haha.
Click to expand...

Formal counseling is a phone call, you tell him what happened, he discusses wys to keep it from happening again, the Inspector may suggest you do some reading or research on the subject.

That's it, no problems, no letters, case closed. It will not effect your pilot record as the only record made is the ATQA and the PTRS, neither is reportable as they are only FAA internal databases.

Just be honest with the Inspector and you'll be OK.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Formal counseling is a phone call, you tell him what happened, he discusses wys to keep it from happening again, the Inspector may suggest you do some reading or research on the subject.

That's it, no problems, no letters, case closed. It will not effect your pilot record as the only record made is the ATQA and the PTRS, neither is reportable as they are only FAA internal databases.

Just be honest with the Inspector and you'll be OK.
Click to expand...

Great, thanks. I'm sure i'll have to talk to them eventually, but my instructor didn't tell me much. He just called and said he got a letter, asked me what happened, and told me he'd let me know when he gets more info. Thanks for the help though, that helped me a lot.
 
flyboy595 said:
Great, thanks. I'm sure i'll have to talk to them eventually, but my instructor didn't tell me much. He just called and said he got a letter, asked me what happened, and told me he'd let me know when he gets more info. Thanks for the help though, that helped me a lot.
Click to expand...

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
 
How did you fail the slip to a landing? Doesn't seem like there's much to screw up there but I've yet to take the check ride.
 
ebykowsky said:
How did you fail the slip to a landing? Doesn't seem like there's much to screw up there but I've yet to take the check ride.
Click to expand...

I was nervous and let it get the best of me. I was at an unfamiliar airport doing a pattern i'd never done before on a runway half the width i was used to. It all added up and effected my landings big time. thats beside the point.
 
cocolos said:
I thought you are only PIC if you passed your checkride.
Click to expand...

See the quote below from 14 C.F.R. § 61.47

§ 61.47 Status of an examiner who is authorized by the Administrator to conduct practical tests.
(a) An examiner represents the Administrator for the purpose of conducting practical tests for certificates and ratings issued under this part and to observe an applicant's ability to perform the areas of operation on the practical test.

(b) The examiner is not the pilot in command of the aircraft during the practical test unless the examiner agrees to act in that capacity for the flight or for a portion of the flight by prior arrangement with:

(1) The applicant; or

(2) A person who would otherwise act as pilot in command of the flight or for a portion of the flight.

(c) Notwithstanding the type of aircraft used during the practical test, the applicant and the examiner (and any other occupants authorized to be on board by the examiner) are not subject to the requirements or limitations for the carriage of passengers that are specified in this chapter.
Click to expand...
 
Follow R&W's advise. The DPE might be called to make sure the story is the same. Were it me, I'd be honest about the situation, and not expect anything bad to come of it.
 
No reason you cannot file a NASA report. Remember that they collect this data to assist others and not just to give you a free pass. It may be the next big story in their monthly newsletter. And as we all know, any notoriety, good or bad, is worth millions in advertising.
During my training period, I was always told the DPE is your first legal passenger. If you do everything correctly, you get certified. If not, he is still your first passenger.
Be honest about what happened. Don't forget to mention your calls to the tower and that the DPE suggested you land.
 
I also agree with R&W's advice and do not think it will result in much more than a talk. When something like this happens and a PD is filed the inspectors are required to investigate. They will probably also talk to the controller who apparently sequenced you but didn't clear you to land.
 
EppyGA said:
Waiting to hear what Levy has to say.
Click to expand...
By the book, the applicant was PIC and eats the violation if it comes to that. At the same time, and also by the book, the DPE is in a deep crack with the FSDO for allowing the applicant to violate a flight regulation (they are supposed to intervene before that happens), and even deeper for advising the applicant to do it -- potentially losing his/her designation as an examiner. By the book, when the applicant asked what to do, the examiner should have either remained silent (or at most said something like, "You're the pilot -- do what you think is right") and then intervened if the applicant continued to land without a clearance (and then flunked the applicant for making intervention necessary to prevent a violation of the rules).

How it actually plays out, I don't know -- I've never seen anything like this before where the DPE actually tells the applicant to do something illegal. My personal guess, however, is the DPE will be in more trouble with the FSDO than the applicant but maybe R&W has a better perspective on this.
 
RotorAndWing said:
No bent metal, so the DPE will be asked by his POI what happened, and counseled on not to let it happen again. The end.
Click to expand...

So I should tell them that I asked the DPE, even though he probably will tell them that that's not what happened? I doubt he'd throw himself under the bus like that, and it'd make me out to look like a liar.
 
Does this airport have live ATC? An archive recording of your communications could support your statements.
 
We all have learned a lesson, it is more important to do what you know is right, and suffer the consequences, than to ask the "expert" what to do and hope he is giving you good advice. I think we can all agree, that if you are not sure you have clearance to land, the best thing to do is not to land, and land only when you get clearance. It is unfortunate that the DPE gave you bad advice, and only he knows what he was thinking at the time. I do not know if it is a good idea, but have you thought about going to the DPE, and telling him what is happening, and see what he can do to help you.

Bottom line is do not sweat it, in all liklihood the fears of what could happen are going to be a lot worse than what will happen.

Doug
 
Badger said:
Does this airport have live ATC? An archive recording of your communications could support your statements.
Click to expand...
How? The communications between him and the DPE will not be on tape, and he has already stated he did not think he had clearance to land, and evidently from what the tower has done he did not have clearance to land. According to my reading of his description of the events all that it will show is that he asked for clearance to land but never received it, and landed anyhow. Or am I missing something?
 
flyboy595 said:
So I should tell them that I asked the DPE, even though he probably will tell them that that's not what happened? I doubt he'd throw himself under the bus like that, and it'd make me out to look like a liar.
Click to expand...
According to Ron, unless the DPE is willing to go so far as telling the FSDO he tried to prevent you from landing without a clearance but you were so strong you overpowered him he can't get himself off the hook by lying. Chances are he's been in the system long enough to know that fessing up contritely is his best defense. If he starts spinning yarns I doubt he'll get very far before the FSDO jumps on him with both feet.
 
douglas393 said:
How? The communications between him and the DPE will not be on tape, and he has already stated he did not think he had clearance to land, and evidently from what the tower has done he did not have clearance to land. According to my reading of his description of the events all that it will show is that he asked for clearance to land but never received it, and landed anyhow. Or am I missing something?
Click to expand...

You are correct.
 
Ron Levy said:
By the book, when the applicant asked what to do, the examiner should have either remained silent (or at most said something like, "You're the pilot -- do what you think is right") and then intervened if the applicant continued to land without a clearance (and then flunked the applicant for making intervention necessary to prevent a violation of the rules).
Click to expand...

That is what I was thinking. I busted my first checkride in a similar fashion. I aced everything until he had me divert to one Class D airport that was close to another Class D (one I was much more familiar with).

I had a brain fart and started heading toward the wrong airport! Didn't catch myself until it was too late and I busted the Class D:yikes:. He didn't say a word until we penetrated it, then he took over, advised the tower and got landing clearance. He said "you know you failed right?". I acknowledged and felt like ****:mad2:

Once on the ground, he asked me if I wanted to fly back. I said yes and flew back to my home field without incident. I guess I wanted to show that I could handle the bust and not let it be the end of the world:dunno:
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top