Landing the Airplane

denverpilot - Kansas flyer I am DETERMINED to learn to fly, I show up for every lesson at least 15 minutes earily, as prepared as I can be with positive attitude. Many days I drive home after my lesson feeling embarrassed, but after the drive I "leave it there", spend the afternoon thinking about my mistakes and developing a plan for the next day. As I am sure you can tell, I am new flying, I don't have friends that fly and embarked on this journey on my own. Consequently, I don't have the knowledge base to determine just how "bad a student" I am - I guess my assumption was, that as an older person (earily 60's), my mistakes were atypical, the responses were natural and, well, required to drive home the severity of my errors. I even started this process wrong - concurrently with starting lessons I purchased an online course, studied hard, and within a few weeks took and passed the FAA written examine (98%) - lol thought I was being proactive - I didn't think it was a big deal not learning this during ground school and not waiting until after I soloed - I offered to take the examine again at the right time ---- just kidding.

It seems to me that a lot of frustrated student pilot online posts blame their problems on the CFI - pretty convenient excuse for your own short comings - but I haven't considered trying a different CFI, maybe I should.
 
exncsurfer said:
@Johnc3640,
Check out this video, see how far he carries the stabilized approach down to the runway before doing anything, look how close he gets before rounding out. I like how it pauses to demonstrate when he is transitioning his aiming point.

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He's never going to land on any shorter small-town strip, much less any bush strip. That was a long, dragged-in, fast, flat landing.
 
Johnc3640 said:
denverpilot - Kansas flyer I am DETERMINED to learn to fly, I show up for every lesson at least 15 minutes earily, as prepared as I can be with positive attitude. Many days I drive home after my lesson feeling embarrassed, but after the drive I "leave it there", spend the afternoon thinking about my mistakes and developing a plan for the next day. As I am sure you can tell, I am new flying, I don't have friends that fly and embarked on this journey on my own. Consequently, I don't have the knowledge base to determine just how "bad a student" I am - I guess my assumption was, that as an older person (earily 60's), my mistakes were atypical, the responses were natural and, well, required to drive home the severity of my errors. I even started this process wrong - concurrently with starting lessons I purchased an online course, studied hard, and within a few weeks took and passed the FAA written examine (98%) - lol thought I was being proactive - I didn't think it was a big deal not learning this during ground school and not waiting until after I soloed - I offered to take the examine again at the right time ---- just kidding.

It seems to me that a lot of frustrated student pilot online posts blame their problems on the CFI - pretty convenient excuse for your own short comings - but I haven't considered trying a different CFI, maybe I should.
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There are a couple of good reasons to consider trying another CFI. The first has already been mentioned (this isn't boot camp), the other reason is that it can be good to get a fresh set of eyes. A new CFI may be able to see something that helps you "get it" that the old one couldn't. That's not necessarily an indictment of your current CFI's teaching ability, just that not every student/teacher combo works.
 
Dan Thomas said:
He's never going to land on any shorter small-town strip, much less any bush strip. That was a long, dragged-in, fast, flat landing.
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Yep, I agree not the best landing, I just liked the graphics and pause stuff. He didn't hold it off long enough either.
 
Johnc3640 said:
It seems to me that a lot of frustrated student pilot online posts blame their problems on the CFI - pretty convenient excuse for your own short comings - but I haven't considered trying a different CFI, maybe I should.
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John, I'd like to join my voice with that of more experienced members here about trying a different CFI. I joined this forum 2 months ago out of frustration with my CFI ("The closer I get to checkride, the further it feels", March 4, 2018). I was about to give up because I felt I was going nowhere.

The overwhelming recommendation I received from POA members was to find another CFI. I did. A month later I took my checkride and after a discontinuance due to an actual engine failure, I passed it. I was ready for it. All I needed was a CFI that was a better fit for me, and a school with a bit more integrity ("PPL earned and lessons learned", May 7, 2018).

If there is another school in your area, call them, arrange to have an assessment/evaluation flight with one of their CFIs, and see how you feel. You can also have a heart-to-heart talk with your CFI but such conversations could become adversarial, put one party on the defensive, and the relationship may deteriorate. Trust your instincts: if you feel there is something wrong in your relationship with the CFI, you're probably right.
 
+1 on trying a different CFI.

After much frustration on my part with my poor landing skills, I asked a friend (an ATP) to do some landings with me. In a zero-wind condition, after he turned final, he trimmed the plane so well he actually let go of the yoke. The plane flew herself to the numbers. I never thought that this can be done until I saw it. Before this I thought trim was only to fly level at altitude. (Hell, you can even do steep turns with proper trim - no hands on the yoke!)

My first CFI was yelling a lot when I did something wrong. I got used to it, but during one very windy condition when I was trying to land at an unfamiliar airport, he screamed 'don't crash the plane'. I got so ****ed, I just shouted at him "stop yelling and calm down!". After this event, he never raised his voice with me... ever ;) Do not be afraid to raise your voice with him! Like the others said, it's not boot camp.
 
If your instructor is game practice low approaches over the runway, at a height of 3-5 feet in slow flight. Landing from there basically requires slowly closing the throttle. Once you know how to get to this height in a nose high attitude and safe speed, landing will be easy.

If you ever get caught a little high with too little energy, opening the throttle a bit will cushion the sink without changing attitude. If there is plenty of runway, this is perfectly fine.

A lot of flare problems will arise when it is gusty, causing balloons and sinks close to the runway. Managing stable slow flight with throttle and attitude will eventually set you down easy. And sometimes it is so gusty you thump in anyway.
 
I'm borrowing this quote from Airline Pilot Central, where they were discussing landing technique on a particular airframe -

"The secret to a good landing is to not give a ****. Over think it and it comes out wrong every time."

Sounded applicable for the OP.
:)
 
jaybee said:
I'm borrowing this quote from Airline Pilot Central, where they were discussing landing technique on a particular airframe -

"The secret to a good landing is to not give a ****. Over think it and it comes out wrong every time."

Sounded applicable for the OP.
:)
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Hahahaha that funny. Because often it’s true. Overthinking. Overcontrolling. Overeverything. Then you say eff it and land just fine. :)
 
JAWS said:
I had trouble too. Until I stopped thinking about flairing and more about a transition to slow flight. For me that gave me the right thought process and mental sight picture. I tead about it in a few places. Jason zshappert at m0a.com is one. Also reading stick and rudder by Wolfgang Lang------- was helpful - his explanations were helpful too.

See how it flys.com is in depth and again provides another perspective.
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So simple, and yet it works. I read this over the weekend while it rained, and I remembered it this evening while I was getting in a little pattern work. Thanks for the reminder.

As has been pointed out: Chilling out and not giving a **** also works :cool:
 
Runways come in different widths and different slopes. You can't use the same sight picture to determine the correct height to level off. One thing people neglect to point out is the importance of peripheral vision. Forward vision helps you maintain center line, and peripheral vision helps you maintain the proper height. What you see out the corner of your left eye (assuming you are sitting in the left seat), helps you a great deal in determining height above ground. You don't turn your eyes to look sideways, but just pay attention to what your eyes are already seeing. The importance of peripheral vision becomes even more important in sloped runways or during night landings.

The older you get, the worse your peripheral vision gets, and this is one of the reasons for why it is difficult to learn landings when you are older.
 
sarangan said:
Runways come in different widths and different slopes. You can't use the same sight picture to determine the correct height to level off. One thing people neglect to point out is the importance of peripheral vision. Forward vision helps you maintain center line, and peripheral vision helps you maintain the proper height. What you see out the corner of your left eye (assuming you are sitting in the left seat), helps you a great deal in determining height above ground. You don't turn your eyes to look sideways, but just pay attention to what your eyes are already seeing. The importance of peripheral vision becomes even more important in sloped runways or during night landings.

The older you get, the worse your peripheral vision gets, and this is one of the reasons for why it is difficult to learn landings when you are older.
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When people wear glasses this can also be a problem. The traditional “look down the runway” doesn’t work completely for them (or me). You just teach them to take quick glances out the side window at the altitude to the runway.

Many early landers are frozen stiff anyway, and getting them to move their head on a swivel or see anything but the numbers getting bigger in the windscreen is a chore unto itself. :)
 
Lots of great advice already. Here my best tip to landing.

First, don’t force the plane to land. It lands when it wants to. As you gain experience you will see that in windy conditions you must be patient and allow the speed to bleed off and even if caught by a gust you can’t push the nose forward or you will be in serious trouble.

Second, while flaring, the only goal of a flare is to ensure the tail wheels hit first. I say this because at this stage of landing you are not trying to lose airspeed( that should be done by the level off.). If you’ve leveled off correctly, (begun the transition to slow flight as said above is a great way of thinking about it) you will start to notice the plane will lose speed pretty quick and soon the stall horn will slowly and faintly start chirping. Once you feel the plane start to sink towards the runway just pull back enough so you know the nose wheel won’t hit first and hold that in. If you pull up to fast or too soon, you will notice the airplane pitch up and the balloon will occur. That’s your hint you pulled up too much or with too much airspeed left. If that occurs simply release the back pressure, return the plane to nose level and wait again for that sinking feeling. Short and simple corrections is what it takes, not violent pushing and pulling!

I read on here a lot of people fixated on where their eyes should be on landing. I know I am looking ahead but honestly I have no idea where I’m looking in terms of distance ahead. I just go by feel and that works fine for me.

Stick with it—you will get it!
 
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sarangan said:
One thing people neglect to point out is the importance of peripheral vision. Forward vision helps you maintain center line, and peripheral vision helps you maintain the proper height. What you see out the corner of your left eye (assuming you are sitting in the left seat), helps you a great deal in determining height above ground.
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This is likely true.

But...

I suspect there are differences between individuals in overall visual processing and specifically how they perceive and process peripheral cues.

In general, peripheral vision is best at discerning motion, and not so great at detail. As such, I would suspect it’s not ideal for determining height. And yet, we had one member swear that when in the back seat of a taildragger, he would fix his stare at the front passenger’s back, staring “thorough” it in his words, and judge height entirely via peripheral vision. I can only say that would not work for me. From the back of my Citabrias I would mostly look out and to the right, again ahead of the plane about 30’ to 50’ at roughly the runway edge. In that case I could see the right main just below my focus, and my peripheral vision was adequate to see lateral movement relative to the runway centerline.

So, it may just be a matter of “different strokes”. In general, I’ve found pilots looking at the far end of the runway have more trouble judging height. But it may work perfectly for others whose peripheral vision is “tuned” differently.
 
denverpilot said:
When people wear glasses this can also be a problem. The traditional “look down the runway” doesn’t work completely for them (or me). You just teach them to take quick glances out the side window at the altitude to the runway.

Many early landers are frozen stiff anyway, and getting them to move their head on a swivel or see anything but the numbers getting bigger in the windscreen is a chore unto itself. :)
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I've worn glasses since I was 4 and that's what I had to do. Once I started doing that my landings improved dramatically.
 
This may have been covered... but, I think this is VERY helpful. I've found it benenficial when hopping between airplanes that have very different personalites close to da earth ball.
 
First, I can not thank all you enough for your encouragement, your views and suggestions. I decided to try a different CFI, a pleasant young man. We talked about 30 minutes before our first flight and discussed many of the thoughts and suggestion offered here. In summary, I tried a combination of "slow flight" as close to the runway as I could - short, small corrections to keep the nose "up" - and actually trying "not to let the plane land." So, my first attempt, the main wheels hit the runway "firm" but not hard - and my new instructor says "nice job!!!!!!!!!". I had no idea what to say - he offers a suggestion and says let's go again!!! And so the day goes, he offers encouragement and I actually start feeling confidence - holly #$÷# I actual make 2 landings where the stall warning sounds followed quickly by smooth "kiss of the runway"!!!!!!!!(OK maybe not quit that good but close). Wow, flying can be fun lol.

Now, today was just a start - I have alot of work to do using my peripheral vision to improve estimating height, finding the "right places" for me to see and judge the appropriate manner to control the nose, and improving on timely but small corrections. But, for the first time, I have a good idea, picture if you will, of what I need to work on and, what a world of difference encouragement and positive suggestions made!!!

My new CFI, during our debrief, actually tells me a few more days like today and I'll have the privilege of "making him walk back" to flight school -i.e. solo. I can't honestly say I feel ready today, but darn, I think I can SEE THAT DAY.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU ALLLLLL!
 
Johnc3640 said:
First, I can not thank all you enough for your encouragement, your views and suggestions. I decided to try a different CFI, a pleasant young man. We talked about 30 minutes before our first flight and discussed many of the thoughts and suggestion offered here. In summary, I tried a combination of "slow flight" as close to the runway as I could - short, small corrections to keep the nose "up" - and actually trying "not to let the plane land." So, my first attempt, the main wheels hit the runway "firm" but not hard - and my new instructor says "nice job!!!!!!!!!". I had no idea what to say - he offers a suggestion and says let's go again!!! And so the day goes, he offers encouragement and I actually start feeling confidence - holly #$÷# I actual make 2 landings where the stall warning sounds followed quickly by smooth "kiss of the runway"!!!!!!!!(OK maybe not quit that good but close). Wow, flying can be fun lol.

Now, today was just a start - I have alot of work to do using my peripheral vision to improve estimating height, finding the "right places" for me to see and judge the appropriate manner to control the nose, and improving on timely but small corrections. But, for the first time, I have a good idea, picture if you will, of what I need to work on and, what a world of difference encouragement and positive suggestions made!!!

My new CFI, during our debrief, actually tells me a few more days like today and I'll have the privilege of "making him walk back" to flight school -i.e. solo. I can't honestly say I feel ready today, but darn, I think I can SEE THAT DAY.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU ALLLLLL!
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Great stuff!!! Congrats!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Johnc3640 said:
First, I can not thank all you enough for your encouragement, your views and suggestions. I decided to try a different CFI, a pleasant young man. We talked about 30 minutes before our first flight and discussed many of the thoughts and suggestion offered here. In summary, I tried a combination of "slow flight" as close to the runway as I could - short, small corrections to keep the nose "up" - and actually trying "not to let the plane land." So, my first attempt, the main wheels hit the runway "firm" but not hard - and my new instructor says "nice job!!!!!!!!!". I had no idea what to say - he offers a suggestion and says let's go again!!! And so the day goes, he offers encouragement and I actually start feeling confidence - holly #$÷# I actual make 2 landings where the stall warning sounds followed quickly by smooth "kiss of the runway"!!!!!!!!(OK maybe not quit that good but close). Wow, flying can be fun lol.

Now, today was just a start - I have alot of work to do using my peripheral vision to improve estimating height, finding the "right places" for me to see and judge the appropriate manner to control the nose, and improving on timely but small corrections. But, for the first time, I have a good idea, picture if you will, of what I need to work on and, what a world of difference encouragement and positive suggestions made!!!

My new CFI, during our debrief, actually tells me a few more days like today and I'll have the privilege of "making him walk back" to flight school -i.e. solo. I can't honestly say I feel ready today, but darn, I think I can SEE THAT DAY.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU ALLLLLL!
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Good for you! I still get a big smile on my face when the stall warning sounds and I know the mains are about touch. I’m glad you got to experience that. There will be a lot more smiles in your future :)
 
Johnc3640 said:
First, I can not thank all you enough for your encouragement, your views and suggestions. I decided to try a different CFI, a pleasant young man. We talked about 30 minutes before our first flight and discussed many of the thoughts and suggestion offered here. In summary, I tried a combination of "slow flight" as close to the runway as I could - short, small corrections to keep the nose "up" - and actually trying "not to let the plane land." So, my first attempt, the main wheels hit the runway "firm" but not hard - and my new instructor says "nice job!!!!!!!!!". I had no idea what to say - he offers a suggestion and says let's go again!!! And so the day goes, he offers encouragement and I actually start feeling confidence - holly #$÷# I actual make 2 landings where the stall warning sounds followed quickly by smooth "kiss of the runway"!!!!!!!!(OK maybe not quit that good but close). Wow, flying can be fun lol.

Now, today was just a start - I have alot of work to do using my peripheral vision to improve estimating height, finding the "right places" for me to see and judge the appropriate manner to control the nose, and improving on timely but small corrections. But, for the first time, I have a good idea, picture if you will, of what I need to work on and, what a world of difference encouragement and positive suggestions made!!!

My new CFI, during our debrief, actually tells me a few more days like today and I'll have the privilege of "making him walk back" to flight school -i.e. solo. I can't honestly say I feel ready today, but darn, I think I can SEE THAT DAY.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU ALLLLLL!
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Amazing how the carrot works better than the stick, and teaching (a pre-brief with goals) and encouragement works better than barking...
 
My CFI said to pick a landing point and then "make it come right into your [my] chest" I know that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in written word but if you can imagine it on final it will. As others have said, the best advice is to NOT let the airplane land and that video with the pitch nose nose, nose level and then nose up is spot on. The trick is to put all these tips together and you've got it. Good luck to ya.
 
Johnc3640 said:
First, I can not thank all you enough for your encouragement, your views and suggestions. I decided to try a different CFI, a pleasant young man. We talked about 30 minutes before our first flight and discussed many of the thoughts and suggestion offered here. In summary, I tried a combination of "slow flight" as close to the runway as I could - short, small corrections to keep the nose "up" - and actually trying "not to let the plane land." So, my first attempt, the main wheels hit the runway "firm" but not hard - and my new instructor says "nice job!!!!!!!!!". I had no idea what to say - he offers a suggestion and says let's go again!!! And so the day goes, he offers encouragement and I actually start feeling confidence - holly #$÷# I actual make 2 landings where the stall warning sounds followed quickly by smooth "kiss of the runway"!!!!!!!!(OK maybe not quit that good but close). Wow, flying can be fun lol.

Now, today was just a start - I have alot of work to do using my peripheral vision to improve estimating height, finding the "right places" for me to see and judge the appropriate manner to control the nose, and improving on timely but small corrections. But, for the first time, I have a good idea, picture if you will, of what I need to work on and, what a world of difference encouragement and positive suggestions made!!!

My new CFI, during our debrief, actually tells me a few more days like today and I'll have the privilege of "making him walk back" to flight school -i.e. solo. I can't honestly say I feel ready today, but darn, I think I can SEE THAT DAY.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU ALLLLLL!
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Good for you. Now you need reps and it will get easier every day. Good luck! We've all been there.
 
We are all very happy for you! :D
Have fun and enjoy!
 
Shoot.... didn’t read all the replies, but did read some.
Saw some bad critiques. Nobody here should evaluate unless they are in the airplane with you. I know your, and their, comments are only trying to help. Trust me, just get a good instructor and let that be your guide.
 
I have a very very similar problem
:eek:
 
72E9B161-9505-44C1-A916-E43A8C58A7BD.jpeg
James331 said:
Here's my default answer on how to land properly.

Don't "round out" or "flare".

Come in on final with your sight picture locked, use a area just before where you want to touch down, it shouldn't move in your windshield, if it gets low you're too high and vise versa, --> don't be afraid to slip <--

Once you're a few feet over that point, runway assured, pull the power, look all the way down the runway to the point that moves the least, think of those paintings of a road with power lines at both ends, how they disappear into one infinity point, look at that.

Now with the power out, try to fly down the runway to that infinity point holding the plane 6" off the deck, keep holding her off, once the mains touch, keep flying the plane to that point till she's slowed to a speed of a brisk jog, don't just let go of the back force and prang that flimsey nose gear down.

Once you get low over the runway, remeber it's alerons to keep the plane in the middle of the runway, rudder to keep it pointing down the runway.

Lastly, imagine the yoke has a ratchet on it, once you pull back when you're down low you can't put the stick forward again, if it starts to sink just burp in a little power.


A good landing will have the stall horn going off just after you transition from your landing target to flying to the infinity point.



These things should NOT be a laundry list of steps, it's one fluidic thing, don't strap into the plane, strap the plane onto you.


And remember
--> don't be afraid to slip <--
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Here is my ‘stabilized approach. The power is off and I have a great sight picture. I never hear the stall horn. Do I have one? Not. Of course I am slipping. In a plane like this slipping has so many uses including allowing me to see. Of course when I pull out of the slip (about 10-15’ above the runway), all forward visibility is lost. Full stall landings usually for me.
 
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