Landing surprise today

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steined

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steined
I went up with my instructor today and we had about a 7-8 knot crosswind component and pretty decent turbulence on final today. The landing had me touching down with the upwind wheel first with a an ok if slightly stiff landing. A short ground roll later, maybe 20 feet, we were suddenly airborne again, I'd say 10 feet in the air. Full power was applied and we went around without incident, but this surprised both me and my instructor. I've probably had 150+ landings at this point so while still "new" I know I didn't drop it on all 3 or anything here..

I did land full-flaps as the reported wind was 240 at 10 on runway 19 and no gusts reported.

Thoughts? What the hell happened and how could I have prevented it? I'm thinking less flaps could have helped and perhaps instead of keeping some back pressure on the yoke after landing that maybe I should have released it all due to the winds?

Thanks in advance.
 
First gust of the day :dunno:

Welcome to POA
 
Personally I probably wouldn't have gone around at that point just applied a little power and landed again. Assuming enough runway.
 
Welcome to POA, might have been carrying too much speed,and caught a gust.
 
DFH65 said:
Personally I probably wouldn't have gone around at that point just applied a little power and landed again. Assuming enough runway.
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Sure, but you are likely a more experienced pilot.

The Most Conservative Action for a student or newbie pilot would be to go around. Get away from the ground. Lots of airplanes have been bent trying to save a bad landing.

My philosophy is, if the landing did not work out from a stabilized final approach what would make one think he or she could rush into a second landing and do any better?
 
Or take the flaps out right when you touch down, I'd wager at 0 flaps you wouldn't have gone flying again.
 
FastEddieB said:
Old, repetitive topic, but probably not good advice for a student pilot.

It violates recommendations in FAA literature and, I believe, the Private Pilot PTS.
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It's in the POH for the short field landing procedure, and as such, violates neither. It's still not a very good idea for a student pilot.

The lesson for today was that lack of reported gusts is not the same as lack of gusts. Weather is reported once an hour at towered airports and can change in that time, and AWOS doesn't report gusts below a certain level. Just be glad it lifted you. It just as easily could have gone the other way 20 feet up.

Turbulence on final was your warning their might be some turbulence on the runway.

In such conditions, add in half the gust factor (estimate with ASI excursions), and get the nose wheel on the ground quickly, and brakes applied.
 
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All my CFIs always told me, "Every landing is different." You managed to find another one. This is a reminder to fly it all the way to the chocks. Good job.
 
steined said:
I went up with my instructor today and we had about a 7-8 knot crosswind component and pretty decent turbulence on final today. The landing had me touching down with the upwind wheel first with a an ok if slightly stiff landing. A short ground roll later, maybe 20 feet, we were suddenly airborne again, I'd say 10 feet in the air. Full power was applied and we went around without incident, but this surprised both me and my instructor. I've probably had 150+ landings at this point so while still "new" I know I didn't drop it on all 3 or anything here..

I did land full-flaps as the reported wind was 240 at 10 on runway 19 and no gusts reported.

Thoughts? What the hell happened and how could I have prevented it? I'm thinking less flaps could have helped and perhaps instead of keeping some back pressure on the yoke after landing that maybe I should have released it all due to the winds?

Thanks in advance.
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The plane won't fly if speed is under stall. Sounds like you carried too much speed into the landing, but if it did start to fly again you did the right thing by adding power.

There is a saying in aviation... "Keep flying the plane until the hangar door is closed".
 
Probably due to the gust factor but your plane was not yet done flying. The fact that you were only on one wheel shows the same.

I wouldn't think about less flaps or faster speed, it doesn't sound like anything went wrong. 1st your were rolling out on the upwind gear and then you had lots more lift so you went flying again. Precise touchdown speeds where the plane is completely done flying are not always possible with a big gust factor.

On top of the gust, if you added 1/2 of the gust factor this contributes as well.
 
Bottom-line, you handled it and learned in the process. Sounds like a win to me.
 
FastEddieB said:
Sure, but you are likely a more experienced pilot.

The Most Conservative Action for a student or newbie pilot would be to go around. Get away from the ground. Lots of airplanes have been bent trying to save a bad landing.

My philosophy is, if the landing did not work out from a stabilized final approach what would make one think he or she could rush into a second landing and do any better?
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Not a ton of hours really just the way I was trained back in the day my instructor taught if you balloon (assuming more than just a few feet add a little power and land again rather than stall it on from 10 or 15 feet.

A go around works too assuming you aren't too far behind the power curve in which case you may settle back down again anyway if you loose gust quickly.
 
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Pilot induced oscillation. Pay attention to the elevator as the plane settles into it's ground stance. Hold it on the ground. Retract flaps if you want to help it stay planted.
 
Never trust the wind. It's a shifty-eyed bastard.

And don't trust the AWOS. It's a lying bastard sometimes... get a good look at the sock. Look for visual cues like smoke or flags or anything to confirm.

Slow down, use less flap, retract them if you can on touchdown. Mainly slow down.
 
txflyer said:
Never trust the wind. It's a shifty-eyed bastard.

And don't trust the AWOS. It's a lying bastard sometimes... get a good look at the sock. Look for visual cues like smoke or flags or anything to confirm.

Slow down, use less flap, retract them if you can on touchdown. Mainly slow down.
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Yea I usually try and look for a wind sock or blowing smoke to get a better idea of what the winds are.
 
Thanks everyone for your input.

I'll provide a little more detail since I've read the replies.

1.) When I land I generally DO NOT get on the brakes when I get on the ground. I let it slow down on its own unless we are doing short field work. (I'm at a 2800 ft strip with no taxi way)

2.) I was also on the ground on ALL THREE wheels when this happened.

I'm wondering if keeping the yoke back after touchdown in windy conditions isn't the best thing to do here. If I am remembering correctly I was told to keep it back and let the plane ease down on the nosewheel on its own. Perhaps I'm mis-applying the instructions here in crosswind/gusty conditions. It's also entirely possible I was coming in a little hotter than normal, but I recall running out of yoke travel so I would have thought I bled my speed off, unless of course the stall was due to the wind relaxing and then it picked up again.

It ended up being ok, I just want to learn from this so I can either correct something I did wrong or be aware of this for the future. I should have added power a little sooner, but at least it was added and this is in the wheelhouse for future landings...

Thanks again!
 
Stewartb said:
Pilot induced oscillation. Pay attention to the elevator as the plane settles into it's ground stance. Hold it on the ground. Retract flaps if you want to help it stay planted.
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I'm going to have to talk to my instructor about this. Makes sense but I almost never release back pressure on landings until we've slowed down and lift is almost gone.

I'm thinking this could have been my error...
 
If it's a nose dragger, I'd think relaxing back pressure would be the way to go after touchdown ...
 
Hard for me to say. Gusty conditions, back pressure, maybe a couple of knots faster than normal... sounds like there were several little things that could have stacked up and caused the hop back into the air. Because you were able to add power and keep flying you may have been a little fast?

Wind can be a funny thing- I used to fly out of KRDM, where the runways form an "X", with socks at every end. The tower one day reported that all 4 socks were pointed at each other...

All I can really say is that you found yourself in an unknown situation and you handled it safely and effectively. Well done!
 
I've had some pretty good gusts take me places. The important thing is you did pretty good handling it.

In the middle of my very first solo flight some heavy winds popped up and neither I nor my instructor saw coming at all. We both took a look at the weather that day and absolutely nothing was called for and the winds were calm.

I was doing trips in the patter at a towered airport and by the time I was turning base on my second landing the winds had gotten so bad, in virtually minutes that I had a 13 knot direct cross wind with gusts near 20.

It was probably the scariest thing I've never experienced coming in at a 45 degree angle and just feet before touching down getting blown nearly off the runway.

I called the flight off, the tower said "yeah good idea, the winds popped up now and are gusting over 22". I got my instructor. He was happiest about the decision I made. On the way home he admitted that the bumps and wind had gotten to the point that he wouldnt be flying if it was just him.

All this came out of nowhere. It took me months to get my landings again. It set me back a long way and for awhile my palms would start sweating and I'd get anxious when i thought of flying. Dont let that happen but if it doesnt, just get back in the saddle and keep pushing. I'm better for it. I've had gusts do nearly the same thing now and I can recover calmly and effectively.
 
steined said:
I'm going to have to talk to my instructor about this. Makes sense but I almost never release back pressure on landings until we've slowed down and lift is almost gone.

I'm thinking this could have been my error...
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Flying is mostly about manipulating the angle of attack. In your case I imagine you were below normal flying speed and had some back yoke pressure applied to protect the nose wheel, which is what we're all taught. A gust comes up and all of a sudden your airspeed is adequate to fly in ground effect. Your response was good. Since you were in a corner you did the right thing and give yourself some credit for that. Next time if you expect a gust factor? Push the yoke all the way forward. Defeat the AOA. Tail dragger pilots are trained to push the yoke full forward. It's impossible for the plane to lift the tail enough to have any prop issues. In gusty winds when taking off I hold the yoke in all the way to keep the airplane on the ground until I can't hold it there any longer. In my Cessnas that's at about 60mph, and I'm a fairly strong guy. At 60 it'll fly off even in a tail-high attitude. So take that discussion full circle back to landing. Push the yoke if you want to keep it on the ground. And retracting flaps will raise the minimum flight speed so that helps, too.

Good topic. Good flying. Moments like those are the best way to learn.
 
Well, full forward may be a bit much. A tail high attitude means wheelbarrowing, with only the nose gear on the ground. That's a problematic configuration with gusty winds, as it is vulnerable to loss of control.

But you can use neutral or some forward elevator with all three wheels on the ground, and this is advisible under conditions given, along with heavy braking to minimize time at vulnerable airspeed.

It can be hard on the nose gear, but that's a secondary consideration.
 
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Call me crazy, but in an aircraft with a nosewheel I've never forced it to the ground even in gusty crosswinds, and I don't recall ever having a problem.
 
Turningfinal said:
Call me crazy, but in an aircraft with a nosewheel I've never forced it to the ground even in gusty crosswinds, and I don't recall ever having a problem.
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There is a big difference between forcing into the ground and not holding it up longer than is absolutely necessary. Forcing the airplane to go where it doesn't want to can have some consequences.
 
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