Landing Stability, Piper Warrior

[vdehart]

Hello,

I'm new around here! Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I'm currently at 20 hours logged and today I went up for my pre-solo phase check with an instructor other than my usual at our club to test to see if I was suited to solo. I passed the test without too many issues, except one thing that has really been bothering me.

We performed three landings. The last two went as best as I could expect them to, but for my very first landing I encountered a stability issue that I haven't experienced yet. Everything was going well right up until I flared the plane and what seemed like a gust of wind came up under the right wing and tossed the plane in a hard roll to the left. I quickly corrected with right aileron, but the controls were hardly effective at that speed/angle and it was hard to stabilize everything so I fought with the yoke wobbling the plane to the left and right until I was able to get it under control and drop it pretty hard on the mains. I was quick to point out that it wasn't my best landing ever but it seemed like the instructor I was flying with didn't think much of it.

Up until this point I've never experienced such a drastic loss of control during the flare. It wasn't just a little bit of a roll, it was significant and I felt almost helpless because at that speed what normally amounted to a suitable correction did hardly anything to stabilize the situation.

Does anyone have any suggestions for what I can do when/if this happens again? I expect that the next time I go up I may be looking at my first solo, so it's just going to be me, myself, and I. I've been trying to realize if it was simply lack of airspeed, too abrupt of a flare or my response to the rolling of the plane that caused the situation or intensified it.

Thanks!

 

[marcoseddi]

Also your first landing of the day, little nervous, you will have not such great ones, mycheck ride I've never landed that bad ever in my eyes. It is the low airspeed that gives you less maneuverability, it's good to see all these things if its always perfect you don't know how to correct or what to do in bad situations. And remember you can always do a go around dont be afraid full power and start and again take a fresh breathe.

 

[Perezhr]

I have a simple suggestion that hope you will always remember. Too often pilots try to salvage a bad landing with disastrous consequences. Your best option is often to apply full power for a go around, and this was specially true in your case. Unexpected gust of wind resulting in controllability issues near the ground at low airspeed.....it can go from bad to worse in a heart beat. Best not to try to salvage that, instead go around for another try. There is no shame in that and it shows sound judgement. Your instructor will appreciate that.

 

[frfly172]

How was your speed over the numbers warriors tend to float down the runway at times.sounds like you did fine.Good luck

 

[poadeleted20]

...a gust of wind came up under the right wing and tossed the plane in a hard roll to the left. I quickly corrected with right aileron, but the controls were hardly effective at that speed/angle and it was hard to stabilize everything so I fought with the yoke wobbling the plane to the left and right until I was able to get it under control and drop it pretty hard on the mains.

Trying to correct a roll at low speed with aileron alone is only going to make matters worse due to adverse yaw. You'll end up rocking the plane back and forth while the nose swings in the opposite direction of your aileron input. The key is the use of coordinated rudder and aileron so the rudder prevents the nose from swinging the other way.

You can practice his at altitude in what is known as the "Dutch roll" maneuver, where you rock the wings back and forth about 15-20 degrees each side of level while using coordinated rudder inputs to keep the nose from moving either way. Your instructor should be able to demonstrate and teach this. Work at it until the simultaneous application of rudder with aileron is ingrained in your flying.

 

[N801BH]

Vdehart...

First post...................... Welcome to POA..

 

[LDJones]

What Ron said, plus a touch of power can help stabilize things by getting more airflow over the control surfaces. It sounds like you were getting slow so recovering from the upset with the control authority you had was difficult. A little power could help that. And if bad enough, as another poster pointed out, a LOT of power might be the better option with a go-around.

 

[murphey]

Never hurts to practice go-arounds....

 

[Twin_Flyer]

Trying to correct a roll at low speed with aileron alone is only going to make matters worse due to adverse yaw. You'll end up rocking the plane back and forth while the nose swings in the opposite direction of your aileron input. The key is the use of coordinated rudder and aileron so the rudder prevents the nose from swinging the other way.

You can practice his at altitude in what is known as the "Dutch roll" maneuver, where you rock the wings back and forth about 15-20 degrees each side of level while using coordinated rudder inputs to keep the nose from moving either way. Your instructor should be able to demonstrate and teach this. Work at it until the simultaneous application of rudder with aileron is ingrained in your flying.

+1

Welcome to POA!!!

 

[kujo806]

Was there any wake turbulence? My instructor once told me about a similar situation while he was flying. On approach, felt a bump and then the plane rolled hard. He said he had to use opposite rudder and basically pull a hard steep turn to get out of the wake before he could level the wings (with full power for go around of course).

 

[MAKG1]

Wake turbulence might do something like that, but it is not unusual at all to encounter plain 'ol gusts with significant roll moment, especially with buildings or terrain nearby.

 

[bobmrg]

What Cap'n Ron said. As you gain speed during the takeoff roll, the rudder is the first control to become effective, then the ailerons, and lastly the elevator. When landing, the reverse is true: The rudder is the last control to lose effectiveness, so you should have reacted with rudder, not aileron.

Next time you go up with your CFI, get a bunch of altitude, pull the carb heat, reduce the throttle to idle, and then just hold the nose on the horizon. Pretty soon, you will have the yoke back as far as it will go and the nose will be bobbing up and down (you don't mind stalls, do you?). With the elevator out of the picture, try to rock the wings with elevator. Lock-to-lock and they don't rock as much as you would expect, right? Now move the nose left-to-right with rudder...works like a dream, right? During this exercise you will be going down like a freight elevator, so keep your eyes peeled for traffic and begin with plenty of altitude. One more time: The rudder is the most effective control at low speeds.

Bob Gardner

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Dude! Welcome!

The obvious solution is to spend more time landing an LSA in gusty winds. After a while, you will think there is something wrong if you DON'T get blown all out of shape.

It comes down to A ) Getting used to it. B ) Learning to recognize what landings can be salvaged easily and which can't. And C ) doing a go-around when it's appropriate.

Lower airspeed makes the airplane more vulnerable to gusts and makes it harder to bring back in line, but it isn't something you did wrong. In the end, you just plain have to slow down to get the airplane on the ground. A little (and I mean just a little) speed on final can keep things firm, but you do need to get rid of that speed by the time you flare.

A little power can buy some time and make the rudder / elevator more effective.

 

[vdehart]

Wow! I did not expect such an abundance of advice and a generous welcome, I really appreciate it.

It seems to me that the adverse yaw situation being described is most likely what I got myself into. Come to think of it when I corrected the left roll with right aileron I can distinctly remember the nose of the plane coming way out of line. A touch of coordination on this front would have helped a good deal and probably prevented the nightmarish "wobble" I got myself into.

And no, there wasn't any wake turbulence involved. It was just what seemed like a steady 7k breeze from 310 and I was landing on 25.

And yes, a go around may have been the better option but I will be honest that it all happened in the span of maybe one to one and a half seconds so the thought didn't process. I was focused more on stabilizing the plane and before I knew it I had bled off all my airspeed and the mains were down. Thankfully I was able to get it level literally just before they came down.

 

[kenjr]

Disclaimer - I'm a student pilot about to take my checkride with almost 70 hours in a PA-28 235, so I'm certainly no expert but...

I fly a 64 model 235 and one thing I've figured out is that I prefer the crab method in as opposed to slipping it all the way down. I've trained for both but my plane with the Hershey bar wings just wants to get level and instead of fighting it at low speed with aileron's it just works better for me to keep a nice stabilized approach all the way down with minor corrections as needed.

That said, on the 18 runway end of my home airport (KGTU) the wind can get really squirrely...must be a path in the trees or something, I dunno...but you get on short final and just about anything can happen - especially if the winds are gusting. I've gone around...a LOT. I've had gusts push me when I'm 10 feet off the ground so hard that I go from the centerline to the entire plane being off the runway. Even with 5k feet, it's just not worth trying to salvage it. Go around and look for a better opportunity.