Landing on water

orange

orange

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Orange
I hope that I never have to do this since water (followed by heights:oops:) is my biggest fear. I have said before that I would prefer to smash into the side of a mountain before attempting a water landing only to drown.

Anyway, I was thinking about this the other day after watching a ditching video on youtube. The guy flipped over. What if you would slow to the lowest controllable speed just a couple feet above the water and then slowly pull up until you stall? That would all but stop your forward momentum and you would just drop on top of the water, no? Since it's only a few feet, the plane should not break apart. What am I missing?
 
I saw an old film where they did just that. The film looked like it was made in the late 50s, and it was a safety film on how to ditch. The pilot slowed, kept slowing and was about 5 feet above the water. Finally the nose dropped into the water. The plane, it looked like a 172, stood on its nose before finally dropping back down upright.

I have looked for that film on you tube, but haven't found it. Maybe partly because I am looking in the wrong area.
 
From the viewpoint of physics, you will still be traveling fwd when you stall. So you will have momentum to flip you over once your landing gear touches water. You might get lucky and not flip but it's just a chance you'll have to take.
But I agree that slowing down to stall speed increases that slim chance of not flipping over.
 
That's pretty much what happens in this video...guy stalls it probably 100 feet up, trying to (I think) stretch the glide...
Side note: The plane took off from the airport where I trained for my PPL, and ditched in a lake where I hold a master angler award for a bass I caught...


There's nothing like wood wings when you ditch...lol
 
orange said:
I hope that I never have to do this since water (followed by heights:oops:) is my biggest fear. I have said before that I would prefer to smash into the side of a mountain before attempting a water landing only to drown.

Anyway, I was thinking about this the other day after watching a ditching video on youtube. The guy flipped over. What if you would slow to the lowest controllable speed just a couple feet above the water and then slowly pull up until you stall? That would all but stop your forward momentum and you would just drop on top of the water, no? Since it's only a few feet, the plane should not break apart. What am I missing?
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There was a guy on this forum that pulled it off in Florida recently. I wanted to hear more from the guy about how he pulled it off, but he never replied and I think he hasn't been back. Remember the guy and passenger in the rescue photos in swimwear?

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...lf-of-mexico-following-engine-failure.102737/

Two posts then silence,???
 
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Your plane does not stall at zero airspeed, that's the flaw in your plan.
 
orange said:
What if you would slow to the lowest controllable speed just a couple feet above the water and then slowly pull up until you stall? That would all but stop your forward momentum and you would just drop on top of the water, no?
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That is my theory. I believe this is the best technique in this scenario. Stalling as close as possible to the surface of the water is ideal and allowing the tail to hit first.

orange said:
I have said before that I would prefer to smash into the side of a mountain
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I'd much rather take my chances executing a water landing than smacking into a mountain, that's just suicide.
 
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tawood said:
, and ditched in a lake where

There's nothing like wood wings when you ditch...lol
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He didn't "ditch" in the lake. He crashed into the lake. Ditching is an emergency procedure, with specific configurations and speeds, sometimes included in the E check list.

People rarely die in a proper "ditching."
 
kgruber said:
He didn't "ditch" in the lake. He crashed into the lake. Ditching is an emergency procedure, with specific configurations and speeds, sometimes included in the E check list.

People rarely die in a proper "ditching."
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Yea, I think the OP had a 'lower to the water' stall in mind.
 
Yeah, I'd rather crash under control into trees or rocks than stall into anything. Fly the airplane all the way to the crash. The guy in the video was a passenger at the end.
 
tawood said:
That's pretty much what happens in this video...guy stalls it probably 100 feet up, trying to (I think) stretch the glide...
Side note: The plane took off from the airport where I trained for my PPL, and ditched in a lake where I hold a master angler award for a bass I caught...


There's nothing like wood wings when you ditch...lol
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Pontiac Lake. I remember that incident.
 
this is a pretty good show of how to do it. the guy flipped, but based on his other decisions, came out with a wrecked plane, no collateral damage and very minor injuries
 
exncsurfer said:
Two posts then silence,???
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I was very perplexed by that. It was a textbook perfect ditching in shallow water not far from a boat ramp by a pilot and copilot in bathing suits. Engine failures are high on my list of "that would suck" items so I always want to learn about what caused people to lose an engine and their decision making process after the failure. The OP in that thread didn't mention what lead up to the engine failure or too many details... maybe a lawyer with the club told him to stay off social media etc., until the investigations are concluded... which is understandable esp since it was a club plane..

I did find the preliminary report: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...D=20170420X70152&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=LA
And it doesn't really seem to give any clues about why they lost power. The only peculiarity is there was some sea water here and there, and the magneto was full of water and didn't make a spark, but that was likely from the ditching. The pilot indicated "violent shaking" after loss of power... that made me think perhaps some kind of loss of compression or valve issue, but the NTSB article says they had compression and made no mention of valves. Oh well... very peculiar

Just noticed something peculiar, the flaps are up. I would assume the flaps would have been a key element in helping slow the plane and reduce the risk of flipping. Very odd the whole thing
upload_2017-6-6_14-37-14.png
 
No idea. The emergency checklists I've seen just tell you to use the flaps only once the landing is guaranteed to help slow the plane down and eventual impact. Touching down at 35 knots vs 50 knots is a big difference. Either way what he did worked miraculously, and hopefully we will all have similar luck should the unthinkable happen
 
Most folks who die in water landings, be it forced, or a botched seaplane landing

1 impact trauma.

2 don't get out of the airplane and drown.
 
James331 said:
2 don't get out of the airplane and drown.
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If my mission ever changes to spending a lot of time over water I would invest in some specific evac training. A while ago @Cajun_Flyer posted a harrowing account of some water evacuation training she did. As horrifying as it looked the preparation can save your life
 
Would you be better off flying the plane down to the water and skimming instead of just splashing into it?
 
Ryanb said:
That is my theory. I believe this is the best technique in this scenario. Stalling as close as possible to the surface of the water is ideal and allowing the tail to hit first.


I'd much rather take my chances executing a water landing than smacking into a mountain, that's just suicide.
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Unless the water is 38 degrees.
 
ktup-flyer said:
Would you be better off flying the plane down to the water and skimming instead of just splashing into it?
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That would be more realistic in a retract, but keep in mind that you would have a fair amount of energy when you make contact with the water.

Zeldman said:
Unless the water is 38 degrees.
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I'd still take my chances in the water. Why just slam into a mountain, instead of attempting to ditch? No chance of surviving a mountain impact. :eek:
 
Little better chance of surviving landing on a mountain than ditching in 38 degree water. Of course I am talking about winter flying. Summer water temps are 10 to 15 degrees warmer.
 
Zeldman said:
Little better chance of surviving landing on a mountain than ditching in 38 degree water. Of course I am talking about winter flying. Summer water temps are 10 to 15 degrees warmer.
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I agree, I was referring to the OP's original statement, when he said he would rather smash into the side of a mountain than execute a water landing.

No matter the conditions, anything has to be better than smashing into a mountain side, there's no surviving that. ;)
 
What I was "taught", for a fixed gear high wing, is to fly it into the water nose high, with a controlled, slow sink rate. Don't flare. Don't stall. The idea is to force the gear into the water quickly so the plane slows down more evenly and quickly, reducing the nose-over tendency.

This is also the scenario where our BAS 4-point harnesses would be worth their weight in gold.
 
Tantalum said:
No idea. The emergency checklists I've seen just tell you to use the flaps only once the landing is guaranteed to help slow the plane down and eventual impact. Touching down at 35 knots vs 50 knots is a big difference. Either way what he did worked miraculously, and hopefully we will all have similar luck should the unthinkable happen
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The 172 POH says for ditching without power: use 10 deg at 60 or 0 deg at 65. No flap would give you a more nose high touchdown, maybe that helped him not flip?
 
The Cessna 172 POH is pretty specific, they want you to touch down level at a 300 fpm decent rate. I assume this to plant the gear in the water fast and hard, belly flop if you will to prevent flipping. Skimming it in at minimium speed sounds like a recipe for a flip in a fixed gear plane as the gear grabs the water first, and rotates the nose down.

Edit: fps to fpm
 
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G-force said:
The Cessna 172 POH is pretty specific, they want you to touch down level at a 300 fps decent rate. I assume this to plant the gear in the water fast and hard, belly flop if you will to prevent flipping. Skimming it in at minimium speed sounds like a recipe for a flip in a fixed gear plane as the gear grabs the water first, and rotates the nose down.
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that is some serious sink...
 
Ryanb said:
I agree, I was referring to the OP's original statement, when he said he would rather smash into the side of a mountain than execute a water landing.

No matter the conditions, anything has to be better than smashing into a mountain side, there's no surviving that. ;)
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For my normal flying area (Michigan) a better question would be, would you prefer a stall into the trees, or ditching in water (crashing in water, potato/potahto)? Seems like the areas I fly over in northern Michigan, the farm fields are in short supply, so your two choices during an engine out would be either stall over/in the trees, or head for a lake...I've always planned for the lake.
 
Yeah, Northern Michigan isn't a good place for an engine out, and your decisions become laced with dire consequences. Trees or 50 degree water.

Very nicely written article Desiree.
 
tawood said:
For my normal flying area (Michigan) a better question would be, would you prefer a stall into the trees, or ditching in water (crashing in water, potato/potahto)? Seems like the areas I fly over in northern Michigan, the farm fields are in short supply, so your two choices during an engine out would be either stall over/in the trees, or head for a lake...I've always planned for the lake.
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The tops of trees are soft so no need to stall into them. Sparky's advice is to pretend the treetops are the biggest runway ya ever saw and just fly it on in nice and gentle. If stalled the nose will drop and the tendency is to hit the ground nose first after penetrating the canopy.
 
Clark1961 said:
The tops of trees are soft so no need to stall into them. Sparky's advice is to pretend the treetops are the biggest runway ya ever saw and just fly it on in nice and gentle. If stalled the nose will drop and the tendency is to hit the ground nose first after penetrating the canopy.
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Ok, yes, I remember hearing that once...
Either way, it doesn't sound like fun.
 
tawood said:
Ok, yes, I remember hearing that once...
Either way, it doesn't sound like fun.
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Agree it wouldn't be much fun. We've had more than a few fatalities in the region where folks stalled just above the trees. The crash sites can be difficult to find. As for the occupants well there usually needn't be any rush to find them.

One of my frequent trips over the hills had me over forest with few clear patches for about 1/2 an hour. It wasn't something I dwelled on, just maintained awareness. On the days with fog in the valleys I'd get a little antsy and rethink the single engine thing...
 
Ryanb said:
I agree, I was referring to the OP's original statement, when he said he would rather smash into the side of a mountain than execute a water landing.

No matter the conditions, anything has to be better than smashing into a mountain side, there's no surviving that. ;)
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Ahhhh.... smash was the key word that I missed. Yes, smashing into a mountain would be my last choice.
 
Great thread. I've heard about and read a lot of experience-less opinion over the years and procedures are definitely subjective. I'm planning a VFR trip to the Faroe Islands and have been pulling together some modern sea survival learnings from books, articles, advice and other research in preparation; rather than simply relying on the ELT/PLB, I want to be as equipped as possible. Having been on a practical sea survival course (dunking, raft righting under a cold hose etc), and attended a day's non-practical course, it was obvious that most folks were more concerned about the process of ditching without flipping, concussion and fractures; me too. It would be useful to be able to simulate this in FSX/Prepar3d with a VR headset, if nothing else to augment what I've collated, assumed and understood so far.
 
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