Landing, not "by the numbers"

[bflynn]

Well, a PIO has nothing to do with speed, it's just poor technique.

Coming in fast and holding the plane off like you're supposed to for landing is just going to cause you to eat up more runway, that's it.

PIOs have everything to do with speed. The higher speed means you have to flare flatter and that reduces or eliminates your margin for error. Let the nose down just a little bit and you're into a PIO. But that's several links piling up, the first of which was speed, letting the nose drop a little was the second.

If you're flying at proper speed then you are flaring at a much higher angle and making a mistake like letting the nose drop a little is inconsequential.

You can also get a PIO by just flying into the ground nosewheel first. But everyone knows not to do that.

 

[Fearless Tower]

But everyone knows not to do that.

Apparently this ex-SWA Captain forgot that rule....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n_ZSR6Z9k6k

 

[Bonchie]

Depends what's at the ends of the runway on whether 21-2300 is short or not. Toss some 75' trees right at the end and it changes everything. 2100 with no obstructions is different than 2100 with.

Exactly.

2200 out over the water is fine.

But 2500 with 300 foot rising elevations on both ends covered with 75-100" trees is short to me and we always use short field technique.

 

[Gsxrpilot]

PIOs have everything to do with speed. The higher speed means you have to flare flatter and that reduces or eliminates your margin for error. Let the nose down just a little bit and you're into a PIO. But that's several links piling up, the first of which was speed, letting the nose drop a little was the second.



If you're flying at proper speed then you are flaring at a much higher angle and making a mistake like letting the nose drop a little is inconsequential.



You can also get a PIO by just flying into the ground nosewheel first. But everyone knows not to do that.

Again approach speed has nothing to do with PIO. It's the poor technique of trying to force the plane to LAND at too high a speed that is the problem. All the high approach speed does is consume runway.

I can grease a landing in my Mooney with an over the numbers speed of anywhere between 55 and 105 kts. But the wheels always touch down when they're ready.


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[wilkersk]

...I can grease a landing in my Mooney with an over the numbers speed of anywhere between 55 and 105 kts. But the wheels always touch down when they're ready....

That's because, whether consciously or unconsciously, you are "flying-the-wing" all the way till it quits. Low time pilots who don't have that "feel" yet tend to see the flare and landing as 1 discreet attitude, instead of what it is: a continuum of AOA vs airspeed VS thrust.

 

[cowman]

How big is your pattern when you're flying these speeds? Does an Archer drop speed pretty quick, or are you out pretty far on your pattern?

~1/2 mile or runway off the left wingtip. I usually try to be at 90-100kts by the time I enter the downwind, then abeam the numbers a power reduction to ~1600 + flaps 1 and a little backpressure to briefly hold a level attitude will bleed off speed to 75-80 before I'm making my base turn. This does tend to leave me a little high on final but if that happens I just pull power back and add down trim and that does the trick. You've got to recognize that situation on the base-final turn and act immediately though, I imagine that trick on short final would lead to some harsh landings.

 

[Gsxrpilot]

That's because, whether consciously or unconsciously, you are "flying-the-wing" all the way till it quits. Low time pilots who don't have that "feel" yet tend to see the flare and landing as 1 discreet attitude, instead of what it is: a continuum of AOA vs airspeed VS thrust.

 

[txflyer]

Someday, everyone will have a lift reserve indicator and it will show them how it is wrong to assume the same approach speed for every approach.

Weight, DA, pressure, wind, it all factors in on lift.

 

[James331]

Again approach speed has nothing to do with PIO. It's the poor technique of trying to force the plane to LAND at too high a speed that is the problem. All the high approach speed does is consume runway.

I can grease a landing in my Mooney with an over the numbers speed of anywhere between 55 and 105 kts. But the wheels always touch down when they're ready.


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Exactly.

I can cross the fence at VNE and still make a super smooth landing, of course I'll need a bit of runway

 

[Gsxrpilot]

Exactly.

I can cross the fence at VNE and still make a super smooth landing, of course I'll need a bit of runway

 

[bflynn]

Again approach speed has nothing to do with PIO. It's the poor technique of trying to force the plane to LAND at too high a speed that is the problem. All the high approach speed does is consume runway.

I can grease a landing in my Mooney with an over the numbers speed of anywhere between 55 and 105 kts. But the wheels always touch down when they're ready.

I agree that approach speed is meaningless because you don't PIO while on approach. But approach speed eventually becomes flaring speed.

Forcing the airplane down too soon is not the only way. You can also do it while you're floating down the runway if you pull a little too hard and balloon - which due to increase elevator authority, is also more likely at higher speeds. The nose rises and airspeed drops until the nose falls and strikes. At that point 95% of the pilots will be pulling back, trying to get the nose up, but having lost the control to be able to do it. The only way out is to go full throttle on the balloon and hope you can get the nose up before the nose wheel strikes.

The third way is if you pull a little too little and you drop the nose and strike the nose wheel. The wheel bounces and you're into it.

We had an entire day devoted to PIOs during my ground school class because the club had multiple instances of them. The pilots financed the extra day in the GS so that others could benefit from their experience.

Speed is a part of the problem because speed increases the authority of the elevator and correct control requires a much smaller margin of error. The extended flare increases both the opportunity and the likelihood of making a mistake.