Landing Long

eman1200 said:
looked ike there was a chick in the plane so technically u were haulin some type of azz. :goofy:

sorry az, I'm feelin extra goofy today.
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Ha ha!!! Ya, that's my wife. Some very nice azz indeed.:D
 
azpilot said:
That's good to know. The next time I go out flying I plan on spending an hour in the pattern working on this (and remembering to have one hand on the yoke and one on the throttle). I'll make sure to shoot for 60 KIAS on short final.

I will say, when I was first staring out, I had a problem with getting too slow. I remember on one of my first solo flights, looking down at the ASI and seeing that it was just above 40 mph (this was in the 150, it's ASI reads in mph, not knots). I was about 100' above the ground when I saw that. It scared the crap out of me. Since then, I have always erred on being a few knots fast, rather than a few knots slow.

I do know that I need practice though. Thanks for the pointers.
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As I posted earlier, do some pattern work with the ASI covered. Learn to judge the airplane's attitude by visual (outside) reference. You do not need an airspeed indicator.

Bob Gardner
 
azpilot said:
That's good to know. The next time I go out flying I plan on spending an hour in the pattern working on this (and remembering to have one hand on the yoke and one on the throttle). I'll make sure to shoot for 60 KIAS on short final.

I will say, when I was first staring out, I had a problem with getting too slow. I remember on one of my first solo flights, looking down at the ASI and seeing that it was just above 40 mph (this was in the 150, it's ASI reads in mph, not knots). I was about 100' above the ground when I saw that. It scared the crap out of me. Since then, I have always erred on being a few knots fast, rather than a few knots slow.

I do know that I need practice though. Thanks for the pointers.
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Try some slow flight in a descent, at altitude. I think you'll find the nose is uncomfortably high.

Slow flight = stall horn on. Some people teach it faster than that.

It's kinda hard to trim a 152 or 172 that slow. Have you been trimming? They usually approximate best glide speed trimmed all the way nose up.
 
bobmrg said:
As I posted earlier, do some pattern work with the ASI covered. Learn to judge the airplane's attitude by visual (outside) reference. You do not need an airspeed indicator.

Bob Gardner
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Bob, thanks for the tip. I'll do it!
 
Hard to tell from the video but, looked like you might have been flaring high on a few. I don't know if that would affect your floating or where you end up that much, but you'd be throwing away your aiming point before you reach it. If so, you can't really flare high and get away with it unless you have extra speed.

I've only done a couple of power off landings, you're adding to the difficulty level with those but if you get to where you can hit your point every time without power you'll have built a useful skill.

Then again, what do i know.

Still figuring out landings myself, good luck.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrPJac80W9Y


Watch this video. It helped me a lot.

Look out at your wing on final. You don't want it parallel or angled down from the horizon, you want it angled back.

And try to hit the numbers on long paved strips every landing. Every time. This helped me a lot too. You must hit your mark when you're flying backcountry, there are no exceptions. Focus on hitting where you want to hit when you land and apply it each time no matter how long the strip is.
 
txflyer said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrPJac80W9Y


Watch this video. It helped me a lot.

Look out at your wing on final. You don't want it parallel or angled down from the horizon, you want it angled back.

And try to hit the numbers on long paved strips every landing. Every time. This helped me a lot too. You must hit your mark when you're flying backcountry, there are no exceptions. Focus on hitting where you want to hit when you land and apply it each time no matter how long the strip is.
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WOW!!! 1:58!!!!

And I'm afraid of coming up short on a paved 4,500' runway!
 
txflyer said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrPJac80W9Y


Watch this video. It helped me a lot.

Look out at your wing on final. You don't want it parallel or angled down from the horizon, you want it angled back.

And try to hit the numbers on long paved strips every landing. Every time. This helped me a lot too. You must hit your mark when you're flying backcountry, there are no exceptions. Focus on hitting where you want to hit when you land and apply it each time no matter how long the strip is.
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That could get you in trouble if you don't understand how to use it. That is not AOA, it is not even a reliable reference. Airspeed and VSI will do that for you without looking out at the wing, and is safer. To each their own, but if you are that concerned about nailing an approach, I would suggest investing in an AOA indicator.

And, it doesn't really apply the way AZ flies his approaches. Power off, he should be flying at L/D Max, which will not be on the backside of the power curve. If he slows to the backside, he will need to use power to adjust his glide path.
 
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Cooter143 said:
That could get you in trouble if you don't understand how to use it. That is not AOA, it is not even a reliable reference. Airspeed and VSI will do that for you without looking out at the wing, and is safer. To each their own, but if you are that concerned about nailing an approach, I would suggest investing in an AOA indicator.

And, it doesn't really apply the way AZ flies his approaches. Power off, he should be flying at L/D Max, which will not be on the backside of the power curve. If he slows to the backside, he will need to use power to adjust his glide path.
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No.

It's not paint by numbers, nor is there a app or gadget for short landings.

Everything in that video is solid, frankly on short final in a small GA plane if you're looking at ANYTHING on your panel, be it a AOA, ASI, VSI, you're doing it wrong.
 
James331 said:
No.

It's not paint by numbers, nor is there a app or gadget for short landings.

Everything in that video is solid, frankly on short final in a small GA plane if you're looking at ANYTHING on your panel, be it a AOA, ASI, VSI, you're doing it wrong.
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The video is misleading because it confuses AOA with pitch attitude, those are not the same thing. And, it can be very dangerous if you misunderstand the concepts he is illustrating, especially for a low time pilot looking for help on landings. The video is also misleading in how he explains that he is not using power for glide path, when in reality he is.
 
Cooter143 said:
That could get you in trouble if you don't understand how to use it. That is not AOA, it is not even a reliable reference. Airspeed and VSI will do that for you without looking out at the wing, and is safer. To each their own, but if you are that concerned about nailing an approach, I would suggest investing in an AOA indicator.

And, it doesn't really apply the way AZ flies his approaches. Power off, he should be flying at L/D Max, which will not be on the backside of the power curve. If he slows to the backside, he will need to use power to adjust his glide path.
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I have an AOA in our skywagon .. (like I need it.:rolleyes:)

Landings are like snowflakes. No two are ever the same, but you can make them almost fluid and cookie cutter like by applying the same practices to each one. If done right, you can land behind the power curve with no power without 'dragging' it in. I like to touch down with just a tad of power to keep the tail washed with air. Rarely do I ever close the throttle completely to land.

"Rock your wings, land on the dot." :)
 
txflyer said:
I have an AOA in our skywagon .. (like I need it.:rolleyes:)

Landings are like snowflakes. No two are ever the same, but you can make them almost fluid and cookie cutter like by applying the same practices to each one. If done right, you can land behind the power curve with no power without 'dragging' it in. I like to touch down with just a tad of power to keep the tail washed with air. Rarely do I ever close the throttle completely to land.

"Rock your wings, land on the dot." :)
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:yeahthat:

Same deal here.

Landing mine behind the house, there is a bend in the river, I keep her low level, and as you round the corner you use a little power, slightly behind the power curve and very low, you can touch down right after the bend with tons of river left over before the house.
 
James331 said:
:yeahthat:

Same deal here.

Landing mine behind the house, there is a bend in the river, I keep her low level, and as you round the corner you use a little power, slightly behind the power curve and very low, you can touch down right after the bend with tons of river left over before the house.
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I'll bet the main thing is, you hit your spot regardless of power every time. That's critical.

When I'm landing extremely short and unfamiliar, my go around trigger finger is frosty and ready.

That's another thing, GO AROUND! There's no shame in it. If things just don't feel right or you just don't like it that much, go around!
 
txflyer said:
I'll bet the main thing is, you hit your spot regardless of power every time. That's critical.

When I'm landing extremely short and unfamiliar, my go around trigger finger is frosty and ready.

That's another thing, GO AROUND! There's no shame in it. If things just don't feel right or you just don't like it that much, go around!
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Indeed
 
txflyer said:
I have an AOA in our skywagon .. (like I need it.:rolleyes:)

If done right, you can land behind the power curve with no power without 'dragging' it in.

"Rock your wings, land on the dot." :)
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Not to be pedantic, but to be sure we're understanding this correctly, consider this. If you are leaving the power set, or at idle, and flying the approach on the backside of the power curve, what would your correction be for too steep of a glide path?

The answer is why I responded the first time, and where people get into trouble. I'm not trying to highlight a disagreement, just point out an important point that needs to be understood. Especially for a low time pilot.

BTW, the video is about the approach, not the landing since most landings will transition in the flare anyway. I think we're talking about the same thing.
 
Cooter143 said:
Not to be pedantic, but to be sure we're understanding this correctly, consider this. If you are leaving the power set, or at idle, and flying the approach on the backside of the power curve, what would your correction be for too steep of a glide path?

The answer is why I responded the first time, and where people get into trouble. I'm not trying to highlight a disagreement, just point out an important point that needs to be understood. Especially for a low time pilot.

BTW, the video is about the approach, not the landing since most landings will transition in the flare anyway. I think we're talking about the same thing.
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Not sure I'm understanding, but if you're too steep with no power lower the nose. Or retract flaps. :dunno:

I don't know how to teach a student, but what works for me is keeping my aim point right above the glare shield at all times using power once my landing speed and attitude is set. I set my attitude like in the video, with the wing back, slow as I feel comfortable.

The AOA takes guess work out of it. It will start arguing with you 30% more than when the stall horn goes off, so I rarely ever hear the stall horn except on the roundout if I've done it right.
 
txflyer said:
Not sure I'm understanding, but if you're too steep with no power lower the nose. Or retract flaps. :dunno:
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Sorry, I didn't make my question clear enough. I'm just trying to point out that there are two ways to fly an approach. Front-side or back-side of the power curve. They require different inputs for adjusting and correcting your glide path. I didn't care for the video, because I thought it was incomplete. It is introducing a different way of flying that requires more information for someone still working on the basics. But more importantly, it was establishing a reference that could be misleading.

A behind the power curve approach is a powered approach. A front side power off (like the OP flies) approach is a gliding approach. The corrections are totally different. I agree with the video that very few people actually fly a backside approach, and for good reason. It is a good technique but it reduces the margin for error.

I'm looking at this from a more theoretical perspective, so I'm not criticizing anyone's technique. I just wanted to point out something that was missing and might mislead the OP.

BTW, I don't own a plane. But if I did, it would have an AOA indicator assuming they're not insanely expensive.
 
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As a 160hr PPL based at a field with a 10,857' runway, I continue to struggle with this, but have been considerably better lately.

I did most of my primary on a 3700' dirt strip under a Class D for a military base, so my pattern altitude was 300'AGL.

Four minute patterns at 300' AGL don't give you a great deal of time to set up for approaches and I never really started my descent until I was well established on final.

The key comes down to Airspeed and Altitude Management.

Be halfway below pattern altitude on base and set up on your approach speed. Find the point on your power curve (1800 for me in the Tampico) and set that abeam.

5-7 kts high coupled with being even slightly above the glide path will always result in a long floater.

Don't be afraid to side slip to get yourself back on path, but watch your speed and manage your speed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Cooter143 said:
Sorry, I didn't make my question clear enough. I'm just trying to point out that there are two ways to fly an approach. Front-side or back-side of the power curve. They require different inputs for adjusting and correcting your glide path. I didn't care for the video, because I thought it was incomplete. It is introducing a different way of flying that requires more information for someone still working on the basics. But more importantly, it was establishing a reference that could be misleading.

A behind the power curve approach is a powered approach. A front side power off (like the OP flies) approach is a gliding approach. The corrections are totally different. I agree with the video that very few people actually fly a backside approach, and for good reason. It is a good technique but it reduces the margin for error.

I'm looking at this from a more theoretical perspective, so I'm not criticizing anyone's technique. I just wanted to point out something that was missing and might mislead the OP.

BTW, I don't own a plane. But if I did, it would have an AOA indicator assuming they're not insanely expensive.
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Depends, for a normal length strip, like over 2,500, front side of the power curve is OK.

For short or special strips where you need your wheels down EXACTLY on target, back side of the curve, as can be seen in the STOL competitions.

As for the AOA, it's cute and has nice lights but it's not found in many of the hard core STOL planes, if you can't feel out a single engine GA piston pounder you're best off sticking with the larger runways.
 
James331 said:
Depends, for a normal length strip, like over 2,500, front side of the power curve is OK.

For short or special strips where you need your wheels down EXACTLY on target, back side of the curve, as can be seen in the STOL competitions.

As for the AOA, it's cute and has nice lights but it's not found in many of the hard core STOL planes, if you can't feel out a single engine GA piston pounder you're best off sticking with the larger runways.
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I'm just curious, why would you wish to use the wingtip/horizon as a reference, but not AOA?
 
Cooter143 said:
I'm just curious, why would you wish to use the wingtip/horizon as a reference, but not AOA?
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I don't want my eyes inside when I'm landing out in the backcountry or into a technical strip, eyes outside. As for the wing to horizon, I just keep it in the corner of my eye, it's not like I'm turning my head 90 degrees to look at my wing.

But yeah, eyes outside, you can feel how much power your wing has from your attitude/power and control feel, last thing you need is eyeballs on your panel as you're landing on a short dirt strip between tall trees.
 
I think you are too high and carrying too much airspeed. I fly 172 R and S models. Here is a landing I did just over a week ago with the complete circuit.

https://youtu.be/0PWYD1f_400

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
James331 said:
I don't want my eyes inside when I'm landing out in the backcountry or into a technical strip, eyes outside. As for the wing to horizon, I just keep it in the corner of my eye, it's not like I'm turning my head 90 degrees to look at my wing.

But yeah, eyes outside, you can feel how much power your wing has from your attitude/power and control feel, last thing you need is eyeballs on your panel as you're landing on a short dirt strip between tall trees.
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Fair enough. I personally think AOA is great, and it is such a simple system I don't know why it isn't more common. It seems to be more common now that it used to be, and I think the more people get familiar with it, the more they'll like it. It eliminates the gross weight issue, and gives the information you need. And, all the AoA indexers I've used are mounted above the glare shield in the line of sight so that you don't have to actually look at it. You just catch the changes out of your peripheral vision. I'm not sure how useful it is in the really small light planes which are going to be much more gust responsive than what I'm used to flying. So maybe its usefulness is limited, I don't know.
 
Cooter143 said:
Fair enough. I personally think AOA is great, and it is such a simple system I don't know why it isn't more common. It seems to be more common now that it used to be, and I think the more people get familiar with it, the more they'll like it. It eliminates the gross weight issue, and gives the information you need. And, all the AoA indexers I've used are mounted above the glare shield in the line of sight so that you don't have to actually look at it. You just catch the changes out of your peripheral vision. I'm not sure how useful it is in the really small light planes which are going to be much more gust responsive than what I'm used to flying. So maybe its usefulness is limited, I don't know.
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Just depends, in my plane it's more of a annoyance and not needed IMHO, however I love the AOAs in the PC12
 
Cooter143 said:
Fair enough. I personally think AOA is great, and it is such a simple system I don't know why it isn't more common. It seems to be more common now that it used to be, and I think the more people get familiar with it, the more they'll like it. It eliminates the gross weight issue, and gives the information you need. And, all the AoA indexers I've used are mounted above the glare shield in the line of sight so that you don't have to actually look at it. You just catch the changes out of your peripheral vision. I'm not sure how useful it is in the really small light planes which are going to be much more gust responsive than what I'm used to flying. So maybe its usefulness is limited, I don't know.
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AOA very top center panel under the vertical card compass. Just keep it on the blue dot...

I use it, but at home field or anything sea level, it's not really needed in a skywagon. But you should see the looks when I do a blue dot take off! :rockon:

I'm a flatlander. 300' is home field elevation. Where the AOA shines for me is when we fly to OSH and we're loaded to the gills for instance, or if density altitude is off the charts when I land at say Amarillo.

 
txflyer said:
AOA very top center panel under the vertical card compass. Just keep it on the blue dot...

I use it, but at home field or anything sea level, it's not really needed in a skywagon. But you should see the looks when I do a blue dot take off! :rockon:

I'm a flatlander. 300' is home field elevation. Where the AOA shines for me is when we fly to OSH and we're loaded to the gills for instance, or if density altitude is off the charts when I land at say Amarillo.

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I've not used one quite like that. I've not even seen one in a small GA plane yet, but for spot landings it should be giving better information than an ASI or a stall warning horn.

I'm not sure if that one does, but it is also helpful if it gives you Max endurance AoA. Nice pic BTW, I like that panel.
 
Skystream said:
I think you are too high and carrying too much airspeed. I fly 172 R and S models. Here is a landing I did just over a week ago with the complete circuit.

https://youtu.be/0PWYD1f_400

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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Cool video with the telemetry. Was that shot with a Garmin Virb?

Can you turn the telemetry on and off in post, or is it permanently embedded in the video?
 
If it's a VIRB once you add the "overlays" like the ones on that post they are permanent in the video post. You can always go back to the original, remove and re-post, but you can't edit it when it's posted to my knowledge.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Cool video with the telemetry. Was that shot with a Garmin Virb?

Can you turn the telemetry on and off in post, or is it permanently embedded in the video?
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Shot with Garmin Virb Elite. The metrics are captured in a separate datafile while recording. The Virb editor then allows you drop in overlay templates which you can edit and customize or you can drop in individual gauges creating your own template. Tons of gauges and templates out of the box. Not all make sense for flying. Then you export and it renders the video frame by frame with the overlay embedded in the output. Does not modify the original source video in any way, but the output is what you see and you can't remove it from an exported video. But you can create as many exports as you want and you can pull the video into your own video editing software if you wish.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
azpilot said:
That's pretty funny! And good call on not showing your instrument panel, now no one will tell you everything you did wrong. :D:D
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I'm just not sure how he made it to the runway since I can't see his magenta line!
 
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