Landing at a Bravo

[ebykowsky]

I had a similar thread the other week on wanting to fly up to Charlotte and through that, I figured out there was no landing fee at KCLT. While the plan to fly there hasn't materialized yet, I have a plane booked tomorrow from 5pm till 10pm, and am thinking of flying into Douglas for the cool experience. I don't want to run the Hobbs up on taxiways and holding in the air for a chance to land, and have never flown into anything above a moderately busy Charlie airspace. What advice do you guys have on doing something like this, specifically at KCLT? And yes, "Don't do it" is acceptable advice. My two thoughts are to either land and stop at KCLT and get a courtesy car/cab out of the FBO there to the nearby restaurant (catching up with old friends for a $100 hamburger), or do a T&G there and head straight on out to Concorde's class D and stop in there (may be easier to find nearby restaurants).
Notes and Questions:
I'm confident enough in my abilities to handle ATC instructions and taxiway maps, but I would hate to be told to land 36L/18R and have to taxi halfway around the world just to get to the FBO.
I can handle the PIT class B no problem, have just never landed there.
What can I expect this time of day? Would I be better off flying in before or after dinner if I end up flying in to Concorde and just doing the T&G?
Would I even be guaranteed a landing slot? Could I end up flying around over the airport for an hour before actually being cleared to land?

Sorry that's a lot of information and questions, but I want to make sure I'm prepared in any way possible.

 

[JasonM]

Yes, do it. Because I want to know how it goes for you. I'm in the same boat and interested in doing the same at another Bravo. I'll do the taxi work though. I would like that experience, especially if it is a confusing ridiculous read back where I could make the controllers happy with a progressing taxi request.

 

[mcmanigle]

If you're comfortable with Bravo controllers in general, and comfortable with the kinds of approaches you'd get at a busy class C (high-speed until short final, being vectored around with altitude assignments, etc) it won't be hard.

My advice isn't "don't do it" but "don't do it without some reason". If you have friends in the area and want to visit or take them flying, that's reason enough. But be prepared to be denied a touch-and-go, and be prepared, even if you aren't told to wait for landing (which I would think unusual) to be given vectors the "long way around" for a longer final than you might expect, easily adding 5 or 10 minutes to the trip.

Also, if you advise the approach controller that you're "inbound for Wilson Air" or whatever, they'll probably try to be nice and land you for a shorter taxi. Also, it helps to call the FBO in advance to see what their fees are, what they can waive with fuel purchase, etc. All that stuff I assume you're used to from class C.

 

[Brad Z]

Just in general: don't get hung up on airports with associated bravo versus charley versus delta airspace. There are plenty of busy class D airports with more operations than some Class B airports.

Avoid the pushes. Take a look at the graphs of flightaware to see the busiest periods. Generally, dinner time can be busy. Best is mid-day or late night. Aside from more traffic, it is no different from any other commercial service airport.

 

[rbridges]

I don't know how common it is. The nearest Bravo to me is Atlanta, and I've never heard of anyone landing there in a GA plane.

 

[ggroves]

I don't know how common it is. The nearest Bravo to me is Atlanta, and I've never heard of anyone landing there in a GA plane.

Happens all the time. Other than KDCA, I don't know of any restrictions other than $$$ for landing/ramp fees.

 

[Sac Arrow]

If you must get it out of your system, do so, but it's not really any different than a Class C airport (or D for that matter) except the runways tend to be longer and wider. Landing fees are pricey though. At SFO for example, the fixed wing GA landing fee is $160.

That buys a whole lot of overpriced seafood and/or drinks in neighboring Half Moon Bay or Oakland even.

 

[ebykowsky]

Is there anywhere to look up the landing fees for each airport? I know AirNav tells you whether or not they have a fee, but other than that, it seems difficult to find somewhere that does tell you.
Thankfully, AirNav says "no" for KCLT fees.

 

[Brad Z]

Is there anywhere to look up the landing fees for each airport? I know AirNav tells you whether or not they have a fee, but other than that, it seems difficult to find somewhere that does tell you.
Thankfully, AirNav says "no" for KCLT fees.

Yes, you call the FBO of chose, tell them when you're coming, when you're leaving, and what you're flying. Ask them what fees are charged based on how long you'll be there, whether you buy fuel, and what fees (security, landing, etc.) are charged by the airport authority. Get the name of the person you spoke to as well. I often do this by email, which provides a paper trail in the event you're charged more than stated.

There's no real central online repository of such information. Some folks report it in Airnav, but it can be inconsistent, and it relies heavily on what type of plane you fly, how much fuel you buy, and how long you're there.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Is there anywhere to look up the landing fees for each airport? I know AirNav tells you whether or not they have a fee, but other than that, it seems difficult to find somewhere that does tell you.
Thankfully, AirNav says "no" for KCLT fees.

Usually the airports websites list the fee schedule. Googling "KCLT (or whatever) Landing Fees" will normally get you there.

 

[Dr. O]

The lure of a big bravo is in your head. It is just an airport and not likely to be GA friendly when you get on the ground. I have been to some of the big B's - Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Tampa, etc.
The passenger malls are TSA gulags and you are not going to be wandering in and out. (why you would even want to, boggles the mind)
The commercial/business side of these airports (as opposed to airliner gates) is an industrial zone, lift trucks, locked gates and doors, not scenic, not friendly unless you have cargo to move. No interesting cafes, etc. If there is a big business FBO on the field, Signature, etc. there will be fees if you taxi onto their ramp. B est to call ahead and not depend on Airnav to give you the prices.

Many small airports have interesting cafes and museums near by. A much better use of your flying dollars.
But if you are intent, then after midnight is a good time for a touch and go. Controllers are often bored and willing to chat. Better yet if it is something they normally don't see, tail dragger, biplane, Super Viking, classic of some sort.

 

[ggroves]

Is there anywhere to look up the landing fees for each airport?

Call the FBO. There are numerous fees. Landing fees sometimes are collected by the FBO, sometimes you'll get an invoice mailed to the registered owner of the N-number. It just depends.

Ramp fees are collected by the FBO, as are over-night fees. I picked up a friend at KBWI a few times. 5 minutes on the ramp was $33 at that time. Probably higher now. Dropped same friend at KDTW once. Again, 5 minutes on the ramp was $42. Odds of getting a courtesy car at a 'B' FBO are about zero. They would be happy to rent you a Hertz/Enterprise car, however.

Honestly, the 'cool' factor of landing at a 'B' isn't as dramatic as you think it is. Often, it's a PITA, with sequencing to get you in.

 

[ebykowsky]

The lure of a big bravo is in your head. It is just an airport and not likely to be GA friendly when you get on the ground. I have been to some of the big B's - Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Tampa, etc.
The passenger malls are TSA gulags and you are not going to be wandering in and out. (why you would even want to, boggles the mind)
The commercial/business side of these airports (as opposed to airliner gates) is an industrial zone, lift trucks, locked gates and doors, not scenic, not friendly unless you have cargo to move. No interesting cafes, etc. If there is a big business FBO on the field, Signature, etc. there will be fees if you taxi onto their ramp. B est to call ahead and not depend on Airnav to give you the prices.

Many small airports have interesting cafes and museums near by. A much better use of your flying dollars.
But if you are intent, then after midnight is a good time for a touch and go. Controllers are often bored and willing to chat. Better yet if it is something they normally don't see, tail dragger, biplane, Super Viking, classic of some sort.

I think this is kind of the mentality I'm taking now. I've decided it would probably just be best to go to a nice smaller airport with a restaurant on-field (am thinking KGMU's runway cafe now), and since my friends will be coming along (not going to be meeting them in CLT), I'm pretty flexible. Thanks for all the input guys... although I'll probably still try it some day just for the heck of it.

Edit: never mind, they close at 2:30 at GMU.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The lure of a big bravo is in your head. It is just an airport and not likely to be GA friendly when you get on the ground. I have been to some of the big B's - Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Tampa, etc.
The passenger malls are TSA gulags and you are not going to be wandering in and out. (why you would even want to, boggles the mind)
The commercial/business side of these airports (as opposed to airliner gates) is an industrial zone, lift trucks, locked gates and doors, not scenic, not friendly unless you have cargo to move. No interesting cafes, etc. If there is a big business FBO on the field, Signature, etc. there will be fees if you taxi onto their ramp. B est to call ahead and not depend on Airnav to give you the prices.

Just like any airport, not all Bravos are the same.

I'll fly into PHX or SAN any day of the week at any time of day. I have ZERO desire to fly GA into ORD or BOS.

 

[wrighthenry]

I think this is kind of the mentality I'm taking now. I've decided it would probably just be best to go to a nice smaller airport with a restaurant on-field (am thinking KGMU's runway cafe now), and since my friends will be coming along (not going to be meeting them in CLT), I'm pretty flexible. Thanks for all the input guys... although I'll probably still try it some day just for the heck of it.



Edit: never mind, they close at 2:30 at GMU.

GMU and Runway Cafe are great by the way.

 

[jordane93]

just curious, why doesn't charlotte charge for landings?

 

[Z06_Mir]

I say go for it. I've done phx twice, from my home field 13 miles away. It's not hard. You won't get a touch and go though.

 

[Clark1961]

I say go for it. I've done phx twice, from my home field 13 miles away. It's not hard. You won't get a touch and go though.

I've done a couple touch-n-goes at DEN. Catch them during an off-peak time and they may be accommodating.

 

[Bill Watson]

Yes, you call the FBO of chose, tell them when you're coming, when you're leaving, and what you're flying. Ask them what fees are charged based on how long you'll be there, whether you buy fuel, and what fees (security, landing, etc.) are charged by the airport authority. Get the name of the person you spoke to as well. I often do this by email, which provides a paper trail in the event you're charged more than stated.

There's no real central online repository of such information. Some folks report it in Airnav, but it can be inconsistent, and it relies heavily on what type of plane you fly, how much fuel you buy, and how long you're there.

It's a good idea to call if you want good service. However, I never ask for information about fees. I do rely on Airnav and Airnav comments for some insight but the fact is, fees and charges are more often than not, applied inconsistently. If you are cheerful and friendly the fee schedule will sometimes be ignored. Topping off is good business too.

My advice isn't "don't do it" but "don't do it without some reason". If you have friends in the area and want to visit or take them flying, that's reason enough. But be prepared to be denied a touch-and-go, and be prepared, even if you aren't told to wait for landing (which I would think unusual) to be given vectors the "long way around" for a longer final than you might expect, easily adding 5 or 10 minutes to the trip.

Also, if you advise the approach controller that you're "inbound for Wilson Air" or whatever, they'll probably try to be nice and land you for a shorter taxi.

I totally agree - "don't do it without some reason".

I fly into KCLT 5 or 6 times a year, more random notes:

Don't request a T&G. You probably won't get. You'll probably be closely following a jet and the wake turbulence avoidance just gets more complicated with a T&G.

No need to tell them you are going to Wilson... there's no where else to go and they are one of the best in every way so you should stop at Wilson. I've NEVER been cleared to land on any runway other than 36R/18L or 23 (If you are a hot stick, land on 23 short enough for taxiway D). And believe me, ATC doesn't want you taxiing around anymore than you want to. They will land and depart you in such a way to minimize the distance you taxi.... but to minimize taxi time? Not so much

I can't imagine why anyone would moan about roundabout vectors or long taxi instructions if they are going into a Class B for the experience. That is the experience. Enjoy trying to keep up and strive for perfect execution. Relish the view up a B767 tail pipe while number 5 for takeoff, that's what you (cough cough) came for.

Remember that your Transponder should be on when taxiing at KCLT.

Has anyone been to the restaurant at Hickory? Any good?

 

[ebykowsky]

It's a good idea to call if you want good service. However, I never ask for information about fees. I do rely on Airnav and Airnav comments for some insight but the fact is, fees and charges are more often than not, applied inconsistently. If you are cheerful and friendly the fee schedule will sometimes be ignored. Topping off is good business too.

I totally agree - "don't do it without some reason".

I fly into KCLT 5 or 6 times a year, more random notes:

Don't request a T&G. You probably won't get. You'll probably be closely following a jet and the wake turbulence avoidance just gets more complicated with a T&G.

No need to tell them you are going to Wilson... there's no where else to go and they are one of the best in every way so you should stop at Wilson. I've NEVER been cleared to land on any runway other than 36R/18L or 23 (If you are a hot stick, land on 23 short enough for taxiway D). And believe me, ATC doesn't want you taxiing around anymore than you want to. They will land and depart you in such a way to minimize the distance you taxi.... but to minimize taxi time? Not so much

I can't imagine why anyone would moan about roundabout vectors or long taxi instructions if they are going into a Class B for the experience. That is the experience. Enjoy trying to keep up and strive for perfect execution. Relish the view up a B767 tail pipe while number 5 for takeoff, that's what you (cough cough) came for.

Remember that your Transponder should be on when taxiing at KCLT.

Has anyone been to the restaurant at Hickory? Any good?

Sounds like fun! After searching far and wide, I was unable to find a good place to eat on field within 100nm of KFDW, and have finally decided on KCLT! Really looking forward to the experience, even taxiing behind the 767 for half an hour! I'm studying the taxiway diagram tonight and making sure to have all the freq's memorized, or at least very readily available.
I called up the FBO at Wilson, and they were extremely helpful. They offered me a crew car (they have 4) and said it shouldn't be a problem to get one, until they figured out I was only 18 (so I can fly a plane but not drive a car!) However, they also said they have a shuttle that'll take you anywhere within 5 miles of the airport, so that should be fine for me. $15 ramp fee, but waived with $10 of gas.
Will post a PIREP on Wednesday.

Also, where should I do my runup? Is it best to do it at the FBO before taxi? I assume doing it right before takeoff at the hold short line would not be best.

 

[Bill Watson]

Sounds like fun! After searching far and wide, I was unable to find a good place to eat on field within 100nm of KFDW, and have finally decided on KCLT! Really looking forward to the experience, even taxiing behind the 767 for half an hour! I'm studying the taxiway diagram tonight and making sure to have all the freq's memorized, or at least very readily available.
I called up the FBO at Wilson, and they were extremely helpful. They offered me a crew car (they have 4) and said it shouldn't be a problem to get one, until they figured out I was only 18 (so I can fly a plane but not drive a car!) However, they also said they have a shuttle that'll take you anywhere within 5 miles of the airport, so that should be fine for me. $15 ramp fee, but waived with $10 of gas.
Will post a PIREP on Wednesday.

Also, where should I do my runup? Is it best to do it at the FBO before taxi? I assume doing it right before takeoff at the hold short line would not be best.

There's plenty of time to runup at the hold short line... you won't be first in line. But to keep things simple, start up and taxi to the edge of Wilson's ramp before calling Clearance and doing your runup. That beats doing your runup on the line or on a taxiway. Once ready to go, call ground for clearance to taxi. That generally works well for me at all big, unfamiliar airports. Like everything else, once familiar there's more bandwidth for runups and departure instructions.

For all flying but especially in busy places - if you are unclear about any instruction or any information from ATC, ask for a repeat, an explanation, progressive instructions or just say unfamiliar. Don't guess or assume, ask!

And absolutely, positively have a taxi diagram. But you know all that I'm sure.

Bill "I was 17 when I soloed at KAGC" Watson

 

[Fearless Tower]

I say go for it. I've done phx twice, from my home field 13 miles away. It's not hard. You won't get a touch and go though.

While considerably busier, PHX is easier to get in/out than CLT due to the airport layout.

 

[Fearless Tower]

just curious, why doesn't charlotte charge for landings?

Probably get enough revenue from other sources. PHX and some other Bravos out west don't charge landing fees either. Then, at the other end of the spectrum, you have Massport at BOS which charges something like $200-400 just to touch down....and that is on top of the $8-9 a gallon for fuel at Signature.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I don't know how common it is. The nearest Bravo to me is Atlanta, and I've never heard of anyone landing there in a GA plane.

Checked that box in a Lance a few years ago. Also MIA and MCO.

Radio skills are important. Speak clearly, confidently and quickly. Know the canned procedures. Sound like a pro and they'll treat you like one. Hem and haw, and you'll get the long way. It's not that big a deal. The biggest deal is the cost.

 

[JimNtexas]

If the FBO drives you somewhere it's nice to give a five dollar tip to the driver.

I kind of like flying into Dallas Love Field, there's some interesting things there. There are a bunch of FBOs, so they have to compete. I don't think there is a landing fee there.

 

[ebykowsky]

If the FBO drives you somewhere it's nice to give a five dollar tip to the driver.

I kind of like flying into Dallas Love Field, there's some interesting things there. There are a bunch of FBOs, so they have to compete. I don't think there is a landing fee there.

Gave him 2 going and 3 returning. He seemed happy. Had a GREAT experience with Wilson air-will post a pirep of the whole trip to KCLT tomorrow once my tension levels fall back to normal, will probably start a new thread for it.