Lancair Evolution- Turbo prop

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thehulk06

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Thehulk06
Heres a question:If a low time pilot (less then 300 hours) wanted to fly one these bad boys. How many hours of dual instruction would you feel was required, not by insurance but by yourself as a minimum to be proficiant in flying the Turbo Prop version of the Lancair.My guess would be 50-75hrs of dual time. At least thats what I'd shoot for.What are your thoughts?
 
thehulk06 said:
Heres a question:If a low time pilot (less then 300 hours) wanted to fly one these bad boys. How many hours of dual instruction would you feel was required, not by insurance but by yourself as a minimum to be proficiant in flying the Turbo Prop version of the Lancair.My guess would be 50-75hrs of dual time. At least thats what I'd shoot for.What are your thoughts?
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300 isn't particularly low if you've had good training. Guys were flying into combat with less. You have to qualify if you have your IR and CPL at that 300hrs. If you have been bopping around for 300hrs VFR at 50-100hrs a year in a 152/172 et al..., it's probably going to take 50-100 hrs to get comfortable in it it, plus you'll need to pick up your IR right away to take advantage of the turboprop and pressure, otherwise fuel costs are going to get expensive. That's 40hrs dual minimum right there. When you pass the IR Checkride, you will be ready. If you do it in a week, you'll be as **** hot as you'll ever be. I doubt that 40hrs would be a reality from PP-VFR in a 172 to PP-IFR in an Evolution, but it wouldn't be inconceivable, depends on you.

Now if you are 300hrs CPL-ME-IR and have just finished a C-MEL ride in a 500+ HP airplane, the Evolution transition won't be that big of a deal outside of systems and turbine operations.
 
Henning said:
300 isn't particularly low if you've had good training. Guys were flying into combat with less. You have to qualify if you have your IR and CPL at that 300hrs. If you have been bopping around for 300hrs VFR at 50-100hrs a year in a 152/172 et al..., it's probably going to take 50-100 hrs to get comfortable in it it, plus you'll need to pick up your IR right away to take advantage of the turboprop and pressure, otherwise fuel costs are going to get expensive. That's 40hrs dual minimum right there. When you pass the IR Checkride, you will be ready. If you do it in a week, you'll be as **** hot as you'll ever be. I doubt that 40hrs would be a reality from PP-VFR in a 172 to PP-IFR in an Evolution, but it wouldn't be inconceivable, depends on you.

Now if you are 300hrs CPL-ME-IR and have just finished a C-MEL ride in a 500+ HP airplane, the Evolution transition won't be that big of a deal outside of systems and turbine operations.
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Thanks for the insight. IR and Commercial on the way.
 
thehulk06 said:
Heres a question:If a low time pilot (less then 300 hours) wanted to fly one these bad boys. How many hours of dual instruction would you feel was required, not by insurance but by yourself as a minimum to be proficiant in flying the Turbo Prop version of the Lancair.My guess would be 50-75hrs of dual time. At least thats what I'd shoot for.What are your thoughts?
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I'm sure someone could get proficient enough to fly one with some dedicated effort as Henning mentioned.

The issue is getting the experience and decision making that comes with that kind of aircraft. You're flying in the 20's, but not topping a lot of the weather. Most Evolutions do not have radar, deice, inlet heaters, etc. That doesn't leave a lot of outs if you really get into it. I know a guy that was partners in one. Beautiful aircraft, but for those reasons it scared him and he decided to sell his share and stick with a Citation.

I'm not trying to discourage you in any way, just adding some food for thought.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I'm sure someone could get proficient enough to fly one with some dedicated effort as Henning mentioned.

The issue is getting the experience and decision making that comes with that kind of aircraft. You're flying in the 20's, but not topping a lot of the weather. Most Evolutions do not have radar, deice, inlet heaters, etc. That doesn't leave a lot of outs if you really get into it. I know a guy that was partners in one. Beautiful aircraft, but for those reasons it scared him and he decided to sell his share and stick with a Citation.

I'm not trying to discourage you in any way, just adding some food for thought.
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Not in anyway shape or form ready to buy one. More window shopping then anything else. When I'm ready to purchase one I wont be in a hurry to solo.I dont want a twin, but like the reliability of the turbine. This particular aircraft is very attractive but in this case looks can kill. Like I said, i'd be in no rush and would take the time to train properly. This is more like a 5 year plan. My 1 year plan is a Bo/Commander Im sure.
 
Lots of Evos have the "thermawing" de-ice.
 
Henning said:
300 isn't particularly low if you've had good training. Guys were flying into combat with less. You have to qualify if you have your IR and CPL at that 300hrs. If you have been bopping around for 300hrs VFR at 50-100hrs a year in a 152/172 et al..., it's probably going to take 50-100 hrs to get comfortable in it it, plus you'll need to pick up your IR right away to take advantage of the turboprop and pressure, otherwise fuel costs are going to get expensive. That's 40hrs dual minimum right there. When you pass the IR Checkride, you will be ready. If you do it in a week, you'll be as **** hot as you'll ever be. I doubt that 40hrs would be a reality from PP-VFR in a 172 to PP-IFR in an Evolution, but it wouldn't be inconceivable, depends on you.

Now if you are 300hrs CPL-ME-IR and have just finished a C-MEL ride in a 500+ HP airplane, the Evolution transition won't be that big of a deal outside of systems and turbine operations.
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:yeahthat:
 
Alexb2000 said:
Would you bet your life on that system?:)
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I just watched a guy who had an engine go out at 20k ft and picked up ice through multiple layers.

He bet his life on it, and it worked.
 
thehulk06 said:
He was only able to get 14inches. But he still had partial power from what I gathered.
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It was really just a joke about Kelly products not always being reliable. They tried the Thermawing on the Columbia's and couldn't get it to work reliably so the newer Columbia/400's are TKS.
 
What's the accident rate in those lancair turboprops?
 
Henning said:
Www.ntsb.gov
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So there are 49 lancair accidents. Which ones are turboprops? Do I need to read every one?

:mad2:

Got better things to do so please someone else do this for me. Henning, go ahead and summarize for us.

There's a good lad.
 
When I plugged in Evolution into the NTSB database it returned 16 accidents with 3 fatalities against an FAA registry of 127.

edit, started looking at the reports and I'm seeing helicopters...

Edit edit.. Interesting, I enter Evolution but t gives returns for Revolution, no returns on an Evolution Airplane with 127 on the registry.
 
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Hawka said:
What's the accident rate in those lancair turboprops?
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According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancair_IV
As of June 2014, the NTSB Aviation Accident Database records 20 crashes involving 18 fatalities across all IV variants...110 Lancair IVs and 250 IV-Ps had been completed and were flying

Don't know if this is accurate information but scroll down to Peters message and read about insurance costs:
http://lancair.net/lists/lml/Message/69942.html?Language=
[FONT=&quot]11% of Lancair's flown home by NON-trained buyers crashes in some fashion. this includes 20,000 hour professional pilots


[/FONT]
 
FORANE said:
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancair_IV
As of June 2014, the NTSB Aviation Accident Database records 20 crashes involving 18 fatalities across all IV variants...110 Lancair IVs and 250 IV-Ps had been completed and were flying

Don't know if this is accurate information but scroll down to Peters message and read about insurance costs:
http://lancair.net/lists/lml/Message/69942.html?Language=
[FONT=&quot]11% of Lancair's flown home by NON-trained buyers crashes in some fashion. this includes 20,000 hour professional pilots


[/FONT]
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That's a whole different airframe/airplane from the Evolution. The IV-P is what I would like to have with a 350hp 2 stage turbo & mechanical supercharged Diesel.
 
FORANE said:
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancair_IV
As of June 2014, the NTSB Aviation Accident Database records 20 crashes involving 18 fatalities across all IV variants...110 Lancair IVs and 250 IV-Ps had been completed and were flying

Don't know if this is accurate information but scroll down to Peters message and read about insurance costs:
http://lancair.net/lists/lml/Message/69942.html?Language=
[FONT=&quot]11% of Lancair's flown home by NON-trained buyers crashes in some fashion. this includes 20,000 hour professional pilots[/FONT]
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I couldn't imagine trying to fly a Lancair by myself for the first time.... unless we're talking about a scene out of a movie like "2012".I have no pride when it comes to planes, I take them all seriously.
 
Henning said:
That's a whole different airframe/airplane from the Evolution. The IV-P is what I would like to have with a 350hp 2 stage turbo & mechanical supercharged Diesel.
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Oh, sorry, I forgot about the OP and read the last question about just the turboprops. While the turboprop IV likely has more completed planes out flying than the Evolution, we cannot even seem to find stats on either.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancair_Evolution
The first customer kit was delivered on 22 July 2008 and production was planned at that time for two kits per month.[7] By December 2011 one piston model and 15 turbine models had been completed and flown.

This being the case, there are likely not enough flying to have statistical significance.
 
thehulk06 said:
I couldn't imagine trying to fly a Lancair by myself for the first time.... unless we're talking about a scene out of a movie like "2012".I have no pride when it comes to planes, I take them all seriously.
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Right.
I have said many times before that I am convinced I would have crashed on first flight had I not received competent transition training in mine.
 
thehulk06 said:
I couldn't imagine trying to fly a Lancair by myself for the first time.... unless we're talking about a scene out of a movie like "2012".I have no pride when it comes to planes, I take them all seriously.
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It's just a plane that goes more quickly, that is all. I bet you could handle it just fine... I have faith in you Jesse!
 
Alexb2000 said:
It was really just a joke about Kelly products not always being reliable. They tried the Thermawing on the Columbia's and couldn't get it to work reliably so the newer Columbia/400's are TKS.
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A friend of mine has a Columbia with the thermawing and loves it. Been quite reliable for him so far. Truthfully, boots aren't that great, I'd like the hot wings.

Now that I've said that, he's going to have severe ice tomorrow, and it will fail. Sorry buddy! :D

To the question about the Evolution, it's actually a pretty easy airplane to fly. I've flown the piston one, and it was quite docile in my opinion. It's a physically large airplane compared to most piston singles, but so long as you pay attention to where your wing tips are, no big deal.. I agree about the decision making at altitude. But I know someone who had probably around 300 hours when he started flying it, I thought he didn't possess any of the mental capabilities of a good pilot (and his decision making proved me right), but last I heard he's been doing a decent amount of flight testing in it since. By some miracle he didn't kill himself despite some really dumb antics, so I can only assume the plane is pretty forgiving.
 
I resemble Ted's comment. My Thermawing has been 100% reliable for over 500 hours. I needed it at least 4 times last winter on approaches and it was a pleasure to look at the leading edges with zero ice on them. I turn it on with a push of a button any time in IMC and temps below 35. And it is great not trying to guess when to activate the boots. If I could find a twin with Thermawing and air conditioning that might push me to make a change.
Have you looked at the leading edges of a commercial aircraft?
 
mvirg said:
Have you looked at the leading edges of a commercial aircraft?
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Yup, Dash 8's, have boots. ATR's, Saab's, have boots. Hawkers have some TKS. They all work. Heat is good, but there isn't anything wrong with properly maintained boots.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've flown the piston one, and it was quite docile in my opinion. It's a physically large airplane compared to most piston singles, but so long as you pay attention to where your wing tips are, no big deal.. I agree about the decision making at altitude. But I know someone who had probably around 300 hours when he started flying it, I thought he didn't possess any of the mental capabilities of a good pilot (and his decision making proved me right), but last I heard he's been doing a decent amount of flight testing in it since. By some miracle he didn't kill himself despite some really dumb antics, so I can only assume the plane is pretty forgiving.
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How is the visibility from the inside?
 
The Air Force solos student pilots in a T-6 Texan after about 20 hours of dual, T-38's after about 80 hours in the T-6 and 20 dual in the T-38, and they solo F-16 student pilots with less than 300 total hours. (disclaimer: numbers are very approximate)

Of course those students do nothing else in their lives except train, and each solo flight is carefully supervised.

As a civilian pilot of a turbine airplane, you yourself are responsible for providing the 'adult supervision' that low time military pilots receive from their employers. If you can do that you'll be fine.

Edited to add: A turbine Lanceair killed my AME on a VFR takeoff. He was an ATP with years of experience and thousands of flying hours.
 
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JimNtexas said:
The Air Force solos student pilots in a T-6 Texan after about 20 hours of dual, T-38's after about 80 hours in the T-6 and 20 dual in the T-38, and they solo F-16 student pilots with less than 300 total hours. (disclaimer: numbers are very approximate)

Of course those students do nothing else in their lives except train, and each solo flight is carefully supervised.

As a civilian pilot of a turbine airplane, you yourself are responsible for providing the 'adult supervision' that low time military pilots receive from their employers. If you can do that you'll be fine.

Edited to add: A turbine Lanceair killed my AME on a VFR takeoff. He was an ATP with years of experience and thousands of flying hours.
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I knew Lyle. We have a camp across the road from his camp at 72TA. I was in the air going from KRKP to Houston when this happened.


Edit; Lyles was a turbo charged piston.
 
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Alexb2000 said:
What commercial aircraft have electrically heated wings?
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787. I expect that trend will continue.

MachFly said:
Got you.

The reason why I ask is those side windows seem to be a little small for good visibility.
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Well, keep in mind my basis for comparison is piston twins, which don't have very good visibility, either.
 
Alexb2000 said:
What commercial aircraft have electrically heated wings?
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A ton of aircraft have at least part of wings, part of the tails even the elevator horns (on the Diamon/Beechjet series) are electric.

The whole horz stab on C650 is electric, with inboard wing leading edges electric, the rest of the wing and engine inlets are bleed air heated. The rudder bias actuator has an electric blanket. Both starter/gen ducts are electric heated.

I think all of the Cessna 500/525/550/560/560XL inboard leading edges are electric, (engine ice ingestion prevention)


If there is metal inboard of boots, I'd bet its electric.
 
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bnt83 said:
A ton of aircraft have at least part of wings, part of the tails even the elevator horns (on the Diamon/Beechjet series) are electric.

The whole horz stab on C650 is electric, with inboard wing leading edges electric, the rest of the wing and engine inlets are bleed air heated. The rudder bias actuator has an electric blanket. Both starter/gen ducts are electric heated.

I think all of the Cessna 500/525/550/560/560XL inboard leading edges are electric, (engine ice ingestion prevention)


If there is metal inboard of boots, I'd bet its electric.
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Interesting, thanks.
 
bnt83 said:
I think all of the Cessna 500/525/550/560/560XL inboard leading edges are electric
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Just the 500 and 550. All the CJs, the 560, and 560XL are bleed.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure about the earlier 560s - I just flew the Encore. Could be electric on those. :dunno:
 
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JimNtexas said:
The Air Force solos student pilots in a T-6 Texan after about 20 hours of dual, T-38's after about 80 hours in the T-6 and 20 dual in the T-38, and they solo F-16 student pilots with less than 300 total hours. (disclaimer: numbers are very approximate)

Of course those students do nothing else in their lives except train, and each solo flight is carefully supervised.

As a civilian pilot of a turbine airplane, you yourself are responsible for providing the 'adult supervision' that low time military pilots receive from their employers. If you can do that you'll be fine.

Edited to add: A turbine Lanceair killed my AME on a VFR takeoff. He was an ATP with years of experience and thousands of flying hours.
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The Evolution and Lancair IV are totally different airplanes. The Evolution is reported to be much less apt to bite pilots.
 
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