King Air C-90

Or you could spend a bunch of dough and RVSM your King Air. Then maybe the altimeters would be closer. I have flown about 10 different King Airs from A-90s, a lot of 200s, to a 350. I can't ever remember one where the altimeters perfectly lined up at higher altitudes.

I was thinking about adding RVSM to the 310. I figured that would be a practical upgrade, considering how often I would make it up there if I had the ability. ;)
 
Or you could spend a bunch of dough and RVSM your King Air. Then maybe the altimeters would be closer. I have flown about 10 different King Airs from A-90s, a lot of 200s, to a 350. I can't ever remember one where the altimeters perfectly lined up at higher altitudes.

The two heading indicators are usually off a little as well.

So are the power levers, especially coming back into beta. It takes a true artist mechanic to get them even close.

So are the temps.

So are the torques.

So are the fuel gauges.

So are the balls in the turn and banks.

More etc...
No, just a reasonable effort and some time expense. Sorry, matching levers is a pet peeve. You get it right so everything is proper then you know when you are starting to have a problem when things aren't lining up properly.
 
Beta is ground only. How much time and money are you going to throw at it?

No, just a reasonable effort and some time expense. Sorry, matching levers is a pet peeve. You get it right so everything is proper then you know when you are starting to have a problem when things aren't lining up properly.
 
Beta is ground only. How much time and money are you going to throw at it?
An hour or two? It's not rocket science. When I first flew with Bob Gerace his throttles were split, I asked what that was about. Mechanis told him, " that's just the way it is." I called BS, found he had been flying with a clogged partially open waste gate for 2 years and it was caused by a clogged up, coked up oil cooler. I actually had to argue with the mechanics at Tom's until my old boss stepped in and said to listen to me, I'm good at this. What did that find potentially save?
 
Stay on topic. Beta is ground only. What could you possibly find that is of any significance? Are wind conditions and other variables always the same? Can you make the exact same pull every time? Are they within limits? Does something that ain't broke need to be fixed or are you just trying to show off?


An hour or two? It's not rocket science. When I first flew with Bob Gerace his throttles were split, I asked what that was about. Mechanis told him, " that's just the way it is." I called BS, found he had been flying with a clogged partially open waste gate for 2 years and it was caused by a clogged up, coked up oil cooler. I actually had to argue with the mechanics at Tom's until my old boss stepped in and said to listen to me, I'm good at this. What did that find potentially save?
 
Stay on topic. Beta is ground only. What could you possibly find that is of any significance? Are wind conditions and other variables always the same? Can you make the exact same pull every time? Are they within limits? Does something that ain't broke need to be fixed or are you just trying to show off?
Why even argue about it? Who cares. If it bothers whomever owns it enough that they want to fix it -- then so be it.
 
Or you could spend a bunch of dough and RVSM your King Air. Then maybe the altimeters would be closer. I have flown about 10 different King Airs from A-90s, a lot of 200s, to a 350. I can't ever remember one where the altimeters perfectly lined up at higher altitudes.

The two heading indicators are usually off a little as well.

So are the power levers, especially coming back into beta. It takes a true artist mechanic to get them even close.

So are the temps.

So are the torques.

So are the fuel gauges.

So are the balls in the turn and banks.

More etc...

Yea, I'm seeing that and don't expect perfection. Of those, the most bothersome is power levers to me. As I advance them, torque comes up unevenly and I have to move the right lever up more than the left to get up to about 1250 which is my takeoff target. Causes a bit more focus on the torque gauge than I'd like on the takeoff roll. My mechanic has said with cables and the way they stretch with use, he can get them to match one way or the other, but both is very hard. He suggests matching on reduction so they are even. I'm thinking through it.

For beta in ground ops, I have to bring the left back quite a bit more than the right, but as Wayne said, it is ground ops.

On the pilot side, the plane tracks the compass card in heading mode which is about three or four degrees left of the heading bug. Avionics shop says that can be adjusted. Guess I'm used to a Sandel on the Baron which has been right on.

Best,

Dave
 
Stay on topic. Beta is ground only. What could you possibly find that is of any significance? Are wind conditions and other variables always the same? Can you make the exact same pull every time? Are they within limits? Does something that ain't broke need to be fixed or are you just trying to show off?

I don't know, probably not much which is why I would not spend much time on it, but an hour or two is reasonable to spend to make sure you don't have a problem. it may only be some reading, looking, and a phone call in to someone I have some respect for to explain to me what is going on and why or why not it's a problem.

So I guess my return question to you is, do you think that $200 is a reasonable expense to make sure that something that isn't right isn't something wrong?
 
Henning, we are both going to be flamed for this but, I am squarely in your corner. On piston or turbine I see no reason for the levers to not be lined up. On pistons I want the throttles lined up with each other, prop controls lined up and mixture lined up. On a turbine the condition levers of course just set in their detent but I want power levers lined up including through beta and into reverse. It does take a mechanic that knows what he is doing on rigging and I happen to have one of the best on the PT6. It is next to impossible to get two enines to spool up identical. Mine are close but, once spooled up the power levers are together through out the power range including beta and reverse. Why would they not be? Also the prop control is lined up also, again why not? I know this does not bother some people but, like Henning it is a pet peave of mine. I may just be fortunate that Gordon Wade of West Tennessee Aviation agrees. But, again to each his own.
 
What does the manufacturer think? Is it within limits? yes or no?

I don't know, probably not much which is why I would not spend much time on it, but an hour or two is reasonable to spend to make sure you don't have a problem. it may only be some reading, looking, and a phone call in to someone I have some respect for to explain to me what is going on and why or why not it's a problem.

So I guess my return question to you is, do you think that $200 is a reasonable expense to make sure that something that isn't right isn't something wrong?
 
What does the manufacturer think? Is it within limits? yes or no?

If someone wants to fix something even though the manufacturer says it's within limits, good for them, who cares. I don't think Henning is saying otherwise.

Seriously this constant bickering between you all is getting really old and ruining a lot of threads.
 
Jesse, you are 100% correct. Perhaps time to close this thread and let Dave start another one as we follow his progression?
 
Yea, I'm seeing that and don't expect perfection. Of those, the most bothersome is power levers to me. As I advance them, torque comes up unevenly and I have to move the right lever up more than the left to get up to about 1250 which is my takeoff target. Causes a bit more focus on the torque gauge than I'd like on the takeoff roll. My mechanic has said with cables and the way they stretch with use, he can get them to match one way or the other, but both is very hard. He suggests matching on reduction so they are even. I'm thinking through it.

For beta in ground ops, I have to bring the left back quite a bit more than the right, but as Wayne said, it is ground ops.

On the pilot side, the plane tracks the compass card in heading mode which is about three or four degrees left of the heading bug. Avionics shop says that can be adjusted. Guess I'm used to a Sandel on the Baron which has been right on.

Best,

Dave

Dave,

After you have 100 hours in your own King Air, you will have the mismatched power levers down pat and won't even think about it.

And, no, they could never be matched for $200. Or even $2000. In fact, they are two separate engines and cable assemblies. They won't ever match perfectly. There are mechanics who can get them close. But, the one I know made his own tools. (Western Aircraft, Boise)

Still these are minor things. They King Air just feels so good , especially at night in the weather. I just love looking out the window and seeing that 4 foot lick of flame coming out the stack. Most comforting sight in aviation!
 
Yea! On a recent flight where I departed in low IMC, it was great to climb out on top and see the solid layer below us when at FL230 and feel confident in the machine providing the ride. Very stable platform, comfortable and dependable. It's a major part of what it's all about!

Best,

Dave
 
Yea! On a recent flight where I departed in low IMC, it was great to climb out on top and see the solid layer below us when at FL230 and feel confident in the machine providing the ride. Very stable platform, comfortable and dependable. It's a major part of what it's all about!

Best,

Dave

On the one flight in the Cheyenne that I paid for, that was what it was all about.

Weather was rotten. I didn't want to make the trip in any of the piston birds. FL250 out and FL200 back - smooth sailing the whole way.
 
Yea! On a recent flight where I departed in low IMC, it was great to climb out on top and see the solid layer below us when at FL230 and feel confident in the machine providing the ride. Very stable platform, comfortable and dependable. It's a major part of what it's all about!

Best,

Dave

Yep, King Air has a hell of a reputation and the provenance to back it up. I'd still rather have a Tradewinds Beech 18 running on Mogas.;)
 
I know from personal experience with several airplanes that Dave's shop will get them very close without extraordinary expense.

Dave,

After you have 100 hours in your own King Air, you will have the mismatched power levers down pat and won't even think about it.

And, no, they could never be matched for $200. Or even $2000. In fact, they are two separate engines and cable assemblies. They won't ever match perfectly. There are mechanics who can get them close. But, the one I know made his own tools. (Western Aircraft, Boise)

Still these are minor things. They King Air just feels so good , especially at night in the weather. I just love looking out the window and seeing that 4 foot lick of flame coming out the stack. Most comforting sight in aviation!
 
I know from personal experience with several airplanes that Dave's shop will get them very close without extraordinary expense.

As I was saying, doesn't take a lot of time to make sure they're in spec and fiddle and fine tune em a bit. Just plain good care; problem is you have to be careful because 80% of mechanics won't necessarily recognize what plain good care is so it's up to owner/pic to make sure it happens. If you have a good shop, you are in good shape.
 
No, just a reasonable effort and some time expense. Sorry, matching levers is a pet peeve. You get it right so everything is proper then you know when you are starting to have a problem when things aren't lining up properly.

No. If that were the case then most King Airs would have matched power levers. The vast majority don't.
 
An hour or two? It's not rocket science. When I first flew with Bob Gerace his throttles were split, I asked what that was about. Mechanis told him, " that's just the way it is." I called BS, found he had been flying with a clogged partially open waste gate for 2 years and it was caused by a clogged up, coked up oil cooler. I actually had to argue with the mechanics at Tom's until my old boss stepped in and said to listen to me, I'm good at this. What did that find potentially save?


PT-6s don't have "waste gates." What in the world are you talking about. Piston engines are a breeze compared to a PT-6.
 
I come from Hennings's world. This is my first turbine as an owner. I had military rotary wing turbine time long ago, but didn't look at things through an owner's eyes. So, I appreciate his thoughts and that others point out differences. We can be nice about that, right?

Big learning curve for me here. Not only leaning how to fly safely and correctly, but learning all these systems. In many cases, it's not worth comparing to a piston; completely different. But, there are many similarities also. Others seem to be enjoying this discussion. I think a LOT of folks enjoy hearing 'bout the differences.

I'm pretty picky. Want everything to work and correctly; so, I may spend more time on what seems to be small stuff to some others, but it's how I do stuff. It's also a reason I was successful in my business; I wanted things done right and wouldn't stand for second rate work.

I have to tell you, I've had several folks either tell or PM me that the KA is their dream plane and they're happy to see I was able to get there. Latest was from a FedEx captain that said of all the planes he's flown, a KA would be what he'd buy if he could. Maybe I never thought about it, but it's starting to sink in. I'm a very fortunate fella. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. If this thread is getting cumbersome, we can pick it up on a new one.

Best,

Dave
 
If someone wants to fix something even though the manufacturer says it's within limits, good for them, who cares. I don't think Henning is saying otherwise.

Seriously this constant bickering between you all is getting really old and ruining a lot of threads.

:yeahthat:
 
No. If that were the case then most King Airs would have matched power levers. The vast majority don't.
Actually it means I believe 80% of the fleet is f-ed up to poor mechanics and operators not knowing better and 20% is going to be done correctly. My whole point being is that if your shop is leaving your handles out of tolerance. I'm not saying perfect, but withing as good as you can get with reasonable skill and effort and near the tight end of the manufacturers allowed tolerance rather than loose. As Wayne pointed out, a skilled, qualified and competent shop will have it squared away pretty good in not much time. "Does he have the mechanic gene? Has he done the job more than 5 times successfully?" Those are the 2 questions you want answered yes about the guy you have do any type of rigging.
 
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I had military rotary wing turbine time long ago, but didn't look at things through an owner's eyes.
I think this one of the big differences in how people look at things. I have never looked at an airplane through an owner's eyes. When I get assigned an airplane to fly I usually accept it the way it is unless it is unsafe or illegal. If the avionics aren't the latest and greatest, oh well. If the power levers aren't matched it's just an idiosyncrasy of the airplane-engine combination. I remember this as being common in King Airs, at least the ones I flew. There wasn't any use in getting used to one particular airplane because I flew a number of different ones. Even among the same model there were definitely ones which were weaker than others.

Latest was from a FedEx captain that said of all the planes he's flown, a KA would be what he'd buy if he could.
Although I would never need that kind of space, I always thought the King Air 200 would be the perfect personal traveling machine if price was not an issue. It's just at the weight limit where you don't need a type rating and it does not fall in the "large" aircraft category of rules. You can also fly it single-pilot so you wouldn't always need to find a flying buddy and you can take it places you wouldn't necessarily want to take a small single-pilot jet.
 
PT-6s don't have "waste gates." What in the world are you talking about. Piston engines are a breeze compared to a PT-6.

The other poster is probably referring to ice vanes.

Turbine engines are dirt simple compared to piston operation. It's hard to hurt a turbine. The same cannot be said of a piston.

The PT6 is quite possibly the easiest turbine to operate; it's a very simple powerplant to use, and to understand. Don't overtemp or overtorque it, and there's not much you can do to hurt it.

There's a lot you can do to hurt a piston engine.

No. If that were the case then most King Airs would have matched power levers. The vast majority don't.

If the airplanes are properly trimmed out and set up, the power levers will be very close. Have you flown the vast majority of King Airs, in that you know from experience that your statement is correct? Perhaps you've just flown a lot of poorly maintained equipment.

With one notable exception, the King Air's I've flown are generally matched very closely. In fact, mismatched power levers are usually a good indication of something else amiss. If the airplane isn't properly rigged, however, there's one more warning or clue you won't get.

Still these are minor things. They King Air just feels so good , especially at night in the weather. I just love looking out the window and seeing that 4 foot lick of flame coming out the stack. Most comforting sight in aviation!

I don't think I've ever seen a "four foot lick of flame coming out the stack" in any king air, ever, or any PT-6 powered airplane, for that matter. You must really be flying some very poorly maintained equipment.

On piston or turbine I see no reason for the levers to not be lined up. On pistons I want the throttles lined up with each other, prop controls lined up and mixture lined up. On a turbine the condition levers of course just set in their detent but I want power levers lined up including through beta and into reverse.

On a King Air, it's really not that hard to do, but I wouldn't extend that notion to all piston aircraft, or all turbine aircraft, either. I've flown a lot of different four engine airplanes, piston, turboprop, and turbojet, which don't have any of the four levers matched, though the flight previous they can be, and the one after, they can be. The positioning and the matching varies with the power lever position, temperature, and other factors; the levers tend to be more matched at high or low power ranges, generally, but not both. The equality of wear and condition on each engine plays a big part; how much wear is going on in the fuel control, and how dirty is each compressor? Are both similar time engines? One may have similar idle power, but not at the top end, or visa versa.

King Airs generally don't fly enough to have an excuse for gross mismatching. If the power levers aren't easily within less than a knob's difference, they should be reset and retrimmed. Most every King Air i've ever flown has had matched (or fairly closely matched) power lever positions. The same is true of most turboprops I've flown.

Any time there's an unusual power lever position, one should begin looking for the cause.
Or you could spend a bunch of dough and RVSM your King Air. Then maybe the altimeters would be closer. I have flown about 10 different King Airs from A-90s, a lot of 200s, to a 350. I can't ever remember one where the altimeters perfectly lined up at higher altitudes.

The two heading indicators are usually off a little as well.

So are the power levers, especially coming back into beta. It takes a true artist mechanic to get them even close.

So are the temps.

So are the torques.

So are the fuel gauges.

So are the balls in the turn and banks.

More etc...

All easily addressed, all easily fixed.
 
I come from Hennings's world. This is my first turbine as an owner. I had military rotary wing turbine time long ago, but didn't look at things through an owner's eyes. So, I appreciate his thoughts and that others point out differences. We can be nice about that, right?

Big learning curve for me here. Not only leaning how to fly safely and correctly, but learning all these systems. In many cases, it's not worth comparing to a piston; completely different. But, there are many similarities also. Others seem to be enjoying this discussion. I think a LOT of folks enjoy hearing 'bout the differences.

I'm pretty picky. Want everything to work and correctly; so, I may spend more time on what seems to be small stuff to some others, but it's how I do stuff. It's also a reason I was successful in my business; I wanted things done right and wouldn't stand for second rate work.

I have to tell you, I've had several folks either tell or PM me that the KA is their dream plane and they're happy to see I was able to get there. Latest was from a FedEx captain that said of all the planes he's flown, a KA would be what he'd buy if he could. Maybe I never thought about it, but it's starting to sink in. I'm a very fortunate fella. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. If this thread is getting cumbersome, we can pick it up on a new one.

Best,

Dave

I've appreciated the thread and have learned a lot. Like you I'm learning turbines, but I know rigging machines and I know mechanics and other tradesmen and I know when things aren't right. You tell me you have sloppy handles, I tell you that that may be indicative of a problem and it's worth a couple hours of time or money with a quality mechanic to make sure it's right and set as well as you can get it. I also advised it's good to calibrate instruments every 10 years because magnets and resistances of wires and senders change a bit with oxidation and heat and accurate information is critical in catching condition changes before they become destructive. I just look at it from my point of view as an operator. Normally someone is trusting me and paying me to protect his large equipment investment and maximize the operational returns. As a captain on boats I found the best way I can do that is to minimize break downs and the associated downtime losses. I found the benefit to being successful in that manner, I had budget to spare to make the boat nice for the crew and get us some bonuses.
 
I have sloppy handles, but I went to the gym tonight to try to alleviate that problem. ;)

Other than the bickering, the thread has been informative and fun. And to paraphrase from Top Gun a bit... Anyone seen a King Air around here?

"Must be close. I'm getting a hard-on!"

The KA is just a DSA no matter how you slice it.

... "Damn Sexy Airplane" ...

I know the C-90 doesn't have the "Hot Wheels" ... the smaller pair of wheels on the main trucks instead of a single wheel. But with no offense to Dave's aircraft, those are even sexier.

(I don't even care if they're somehow technically worse/better/whatever than the other gear type. They just look Sierra Hotel.)

(And before anyone whines about my Top Gun paraphrase and wants to get all cranky about it, the MPAA says that line is from a PG rated movie. Pbbbbt.)

And of course, Dave gets to use another Top Gun line....

"Hey Dave! Who's butt did you kiss to get to fly a King Air?"

"The list is long... but distinguished!"

:)
 
The other poster is probably referring to ice vanes.

Henning was referring to waste gates, not ice vanes.

Turbine engines are dirt simple compared to piston operation. It's hard to hurt a turbine. The same cannot be said of a piston.

It is very easy to hurt a PT-6, especially when you are rigging it. They don't like to be started over and over again in a short period. One should, if possible, wait 30 minutes after shutdown for a restart. Rigging requires multiple restarts.

The PT6 is quite possibly the easiest turbine to operate; it's a very simple powerplant to use, and to understand. Don't overtemp or overtorque it, and there's not much you can do to hurt it

You don't have to do anything to "hurt" a PT-6. They can do enough damage all on their own. I flew a 200 that was being sold. It had less than 100 hrs from a P&W overhaul. One of the nozzles was spraying a stream of fuel against the combustion liner. It cost $250,000 to repair. lesson: If you are buying a KA, open the engines.

There's a lot you can do to hurt a piston engine.

You clearly speak from experience here.


If the airplanes are properly trimmed out and set up, the power levers will be very close. Have you flown the vast majority of King Airs, in that you know from experience that your statement is correct? Perhaps you've just flown a lot of poorly maintained equipment.

The equipment I flew was maintained by large "Beech" shops, Flightcraft and Western Aircraft Services, and paid for owners who always paid the bill. A brand new airplane with consecutively numbered engines can be rigged pretty good. Once the airplane has been in service for a few years it becomes more difficult because the engines become mismatched. One engine might need a hot section due to FOD or just not making target power or something. Rental engine might be installed. When you go to an overhaul facility you find that there are different spec CT blades available for the same engine. These things add up over time and usually an airplane will have engines that no longer match like they did when new.

With one notable exception, the King Air's I've flown are generally matched very closely. In fact, mismatched power levers are usually a good indication of something else amiss. If the airplane isn't properly rigged, however, there's one more warning or clue you won't get.

You are lucky, maybe flown some new equipment, but as KAs age they become more and more difficult to match rigging. And it is no 2 hour job, as Henning suggests. Sure, you can slam a rental engine on in a few hours with a couple of guys. And then you can spend the next two days rigging, if you like perfection. And even then, they are likely to just be close in one direction.

I don't think I've ever seen a "four foot lick of flame coming out the stack" in any king air,

Proof you've never looked out of a 200 at night. 10% of the thrust of a PT6 is jet exhaust at cruise. A beautiful blue/yellow flame is quite definitely flowing from those stacks.

ever, or any PT-6 powered airplane, for that matter. You must really be flying some very poorly maintained equipment.

It is your eyesight that is "poor." BTW, I highly recommend Lazik.


On a King Air, it's really not that hard to do, but I wouldn't extend that notion to all piston aircraft, or all turbine aircraft, either. I've flown a lot of different four engine airplanes, piston, turboprop, and turbojet, which don't have any of the four levers matched, though the flight previous they can be, and the one after, they can be. The positioning and the matching varies with the power lever position, temperature, and other factors; the levers tend to be more matched at high or low power ranges, generally, but not both. The equality of wear and condition on each engine plays a big part; how much wear is going on in the fuel control, and how dirty is each compressor? Are both similar time engines? One may have similar idle power, but not at the top end, or visa versa.

King Airs generally don't fly enough to have an excuse for gross mismatching.

I don't know where you are coming from, but our airplanes worked for a living. If we didn't get 45 hours a month the airplanes would go away.

If the power levers aren't easily within less than a knob's difference, they should be reset and retrimmed. Most every King Air i've ever flown has had matched (or fairly closely matched) power lever positions. The same is true of most turboprops I've flown.

The King Air fleet is very old. Most are running with their third or fourth engine overhauls. The engines are not matched and neither should one expect their power levers to be. Many (most) of the time they can be made to be pretty good forward, but then worsen into beta.

Any time there's an unusual power lever position, one should begin looking for the cause.

Don't spend the bosses money on a witch hunt. It sounds like you flew for a government agency in which case money was wantonly wasted on frivolity.

All easily addressed, all easily fixed.

All at a cost, and not likely to perfection.

This is not a perfect world. Expecting perfection is a fools errand.
 
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I think calling it "Cessna", while not the appropriate call, is still acceptable. Speed wise, it's not going to be a lot faster in the pattern than a 140 or the like.

If I were to call the 310 as "Cessna", that would be a bit misleading. I'm typically going as fast (or faster) in the pattern as a 172 is in cruise.

A few years back at JYO, there was a Citation that thought it was being cute calling itself a Cessna. We all in the pattern failed to see the humor...:nono:
 
I think a LOT of folks enjoy hearing 'bout the differences.

Very true, hence why we've gotten a 20-page thread out of this. I see no point in closing this thread, it's been good discussion.

As usual, we have people from different views and backgrounds, which is part of what keeps things engaging.
 
I think it's a great thread, I've picked up enough info that I think I could safely steal a King Air without burning it up....;)
 
Since we were talking about power levers being askew, If you get a chance, Google it: askew (g).

Best,

Dave
 
Since we were talking about power levers being askew, If you get a chance, Google it: askew (g).

Best,

Dave

I didn't even notice it at first, and when I did, I thought something was wrong. It took me a minute to make the connection. :D
 
An hour or two? It's not rocket science. When I first flew with Bob Gerace his throttles were split, I asked what that was about. Mechanis told him, " that's just the way it is." I called BS, found he had been flying with a clogged partially open waste gate for 2 years and it was caused by a clogged up, coked up oil cooler. I actually had to argue with the mechanics at Tom's until my old boss stepped in and said to listen to me, I'm good at this. What did that find potentially save?

PT-6s don't have "waste gates." What in the world are you talking about. Piston engines are a breeze compared to a PT-6.

Henning was talking about Bob G's T-310R, so, yes, waste gates.

Dr. Bill and I sat in the back seat of that plane with Henning and Bob flying up front to the first RDU BBQ fly-in in 2007. I saw the split. It was a good 2" between the two. I just looked through my old photos to see if I had a snapshot of it, but, alas, I do not.
 
A few years back at JYO, there was a Citation that thought it was being cute calling itself a Cessna. We all in the pattern failed to see the humor...:nono:

Mari flies a "twin Cessna"...
 
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