Kinda sold on G1000

[bikert]

Sounds like he was below, armed gs capture, it missed and failed to capture so they blew thru gs.. Now he's above and drive bombed it because they didn't notice the failure to capture gs quickly enough.

You've got to not notice for a long time to get so far above the glide slope that you have to dive bomb it. Maybe there was some exaggeration here (this is, after all, the internet ) but either way this does not sound like someone I would want to be flying my mother around in the back.

 

[mkosmo]

You've got to not notice for a long time to get so far above the glide slope that you have to dive bomb it. Maybe there was some exaggeration here (this is, after all, the internet ) but either way this does not sound like someone I would want to be flying my mother around in the back.

I'm thinking it's exaggeration. I've been known to embellish that same kind of detail before, too, without thinking about what the implication is lol

 

[MAKG1]

So were you below it before or after you "dive bombed" it

Ok, one more time.

I was not PIC. I witnessed this from the right seat.

Under GS, GS armed. Green diamond appears at the top as it should and then drops normally. GS is NOT captured and it continues to drop, still armed, past the center. Now, we're above it. PIC gets confused and waits too long to correct, then dive bombs.

There was never a safety issue, conditions are bright VFR with little other traffic and 3000 feet of terrain clearance when this occurred. My role as safety pilot under that circumstance is to watch for traffic, not to correct the PIC's mistake, and certainly not to take the controls. And to provide feedback after the flight, which I did.

 

[denverpilot]

I went from steam panel to G1000 and thought wow ! ...I'm liking this, and make no mistake it is great especially IFR but when I look back it made me a lazy pilot when flying VFR I definitely focused more on the glass than outside.



I'm now back flying with steam gauges FF with Stratus, ok I'm not getting ALL the traffic out there but I'm now looking outside and glancing inside instead of the other way round.

I've seen pilots (including myself) do this also. If you let it, the screens will pull your eyeballs inside. I've also caught myself doing it on steam since the IFR ticket.

Don't believe me? Set a timer to go off every fifteen seconds. Be honest about where your eyeballs are when it goes off. If it goes off four times and your eyes are inside more than one of them, you're not looking outside enough VFR. IMHO anyway.

Showed up really well on the Vegas XC. After a while you'd notice you weren't looking outside, you're playing with holding an altitude to +-5'. Just because it's "fun".

But it's not VFR.

I was reminded of the flight where my primary instructor threw his jacket over the panel and said, "Now fly the plane. Hold altitude and heading by reference OUT THERE... [points outside]... Pick a landmark. Fly to it. Pick another..."

I never said G1000 wasn't a great tool. It's fine. Just don't fly the video game in the panel. Fly the plane.

 

[bikert]

Ok, one more time.

I was not PIC. I witnessed this from the right seat.

You weren't PIC? Why didn't you say so earlier.

 

[James331]

Ok, one more time.

I was not PIC. I witnessed this from the right seat.

Under GS, GS armed. Green diamond appears at the top as it should and then drops normally. GS is NOT captured and it continues to drop, still armed, past the center. Now, we're above it. PIC gets confused and waits too long to correct, then dive bombs.

There was never a safety issue, conditions are bright VFR with little other traffic and 3000 feet of terrain clearance when this occurred. My role as safety pilot under that circumstance is to watch for traffic, not to correct the PIC's mistake, and certainly not to take the controls. And to provide feedback after the flight, which I did.

Understood you weren't PIC, that said this WAS a saftey issue. There is only one reason people practice shooting approaches, it's so they will be proficient when they are shooting it in real life/IMC.

We practice the way we want to preform and we end up performing they way we practice, I'd wager if this happened in IMC he would do the same dumb "correction" and dive bomb back onto, or maybe through and out the other end, of the G/S.

Being this far behind the plane, and not executing a missed when he realized he FUBARed it up, let's hope he isn't taking that plane up IFR, or god forbid into IMC.

 

[MAKG1]

For him, yes. Not for my role. As safety pilot, it's only my responsibility to interfere if there is an actual safety issue for conditions at that time. The rest can (and did) wait for debrief.

He's doing these VFR with a safety pilot specifically because he isn't comfortable with the G1000 buttonology. He's a G500 pilot. I don't know how different the panel is; I have no G500 experience. The autopilot is likely quite different.

Keep in mind, my point was that it requires a lot of training and practice to be a proficient and safe G1000 pilot. All these "Get more training, dammit" comments reinforce that point substantially. This flight deck is not appropriate for an inexperienced pilot, especially in IMC. But even VFR, it still has multiple bust buttons. For a student pilot in the Bay Area, a real bad one is flying VNAV inbound and forgetting to set the altitude bug low. That's a class B bust. A proficient pilot will not have that problem.

For my own flying in this airplane, I've done three coupled approaches now in it (ILS, LPV and LNAV), and all have been to standards with no errors, even with ATC adding traffic vectors. I could use some practice hand-flying precision approaches, as the numbers I was using resulted in more speed and less stability than I wanted (they have now been revised accordingly). I'm still getting some more training in it before I consider flying it in IMC.

 

[JasonM]

Where did this happen? What was the altitude AGL?

 

[James331]

For him, yes. Not for my role. As safety pilot, it's only my responsibility to interfere if there is an actual safety issue for conditions at that time. The rest can (and did) wait for debrief.

He's doing these VFR with a safety pilot specifically because he isn't comfortable with the G1000 buttonology. He's a G500 pilot. I don't know how different the panel is; I have no G500 experience. The autopilot is likely quite different.

Keep in mind, my point was that it requires a lot of training and practice to be a proficient and safe G1000 pilot. All these "Get more training, dammit" comments reinforce that point substantially. This flight deck is not appropriate for an inexperienced pilot, especially in IMC. But even VFR, it still has multiple bust buttons. For a student pilot in the Bay Area, a real bad one is flying VNAV inbound and forgetting to set the altitude bug low. That's a class B bust. A proficient pilot will not have that problem.

For my own flying in this airplane, I've done three coupled approaches now in it (ILS, LPV and LNAV), and all have been to standards with no errors, even with ATC adding traffic vectors. I could use some practice hand-flying precision approaches, as the numbers I was using resulted in more speed and less stability than I wanted (they have now been revised accordingly). I'm still getting some more training in it before I consider flying it in IMC.

Not keeping up with the plane, allowing the auto pilot to take you for a ride, dive bombing back onto a G/S, that's not a issue of different avionics IMHO, that's a problem with general airmanship and IFR skill.

Ether way, hope he gets himself straightened out and flys safe.

 

[olasek]

G1000 has a set of arcane rules about when it does and doesn't intercept glideslope, that are simply not present on less "advanced" aircraft.

I can't agree with the above statement. I am not aware of any such 'arcane rules' and I know G1000 very well. If such arcane user-unfriendly rules existed perhaps they would be listed in the documentation - I can't find any. It is a very tolerant system, it intercepts GS very easily (including from above), it transitions smoothly from VNV to GS. It intercepts LOC at very high angles too.

 

[bikert]

I can't agree with the above statement. I am not aware of any such 'arcane rules' and I know G1000 very well. If such arcane user-unfriendly rules existed perhaps they would be listed in the documentation - I can't find any. It is a very tolerant system, it intercepts GS very easily (including from above), it transitions smoothly from VNV to GS. It intercepts LOC at very high angles too.

My experience too. I have to say I'm amazed that we have someone who is inexperienced with the G1000 and who blames his lack of understanding on the way it works on "it has arcane rules", and "it is glitching", and then comes on here as an expert to dazzle us with his knowledge and dismissive opinion of it. People, if you don't know much about a subject don't go offering advice on it. Opinions, sure, advice hell no.

 

[MAKG1]

My experience too. I have to say I'm amazed that we have someone who is inexperienced with the G1000 and who blames his lack of understanding on the way it works on "it has arcane rules", and "it is glitching", and then comes on here as an expert to dazzle us with his knowledge and dismissive opinion of it. People, if you don't know much about a subject don't go offering advice on it. Opinions, sure, advice hell no.

I gave a detailed description of two glitches.

Explain what my mistake was in both cases. Since you're so all-knowing, this should be easy. Make sure it is actually my mistake. You've screwed this up multiple times already.

Also explain how anything I said is inconsistent with the point that G1000 requires significant training to be a safety enhancement. The OP is a student pilot and thinks the magic screens will "help" him in complex airspace with lots of traffic.

This device comes with more than 1000 pages in two manuals and STILL lacks detail where you need it. How is it wrong to call that complex?

No arcane rules? Sheesh. In your infinite experience, have you ever used VNV? When and where does it descend? I can think of two cases where it won't at all.

 

[bikert]

MAKG, it is OBVIOUS to anyone here who uses the G1000 a lot, daily, that you are not familiar with it. Don't go blaming the machine for "glitching". Whether or not you're PIC, if it doesn't behave the way you were expecting you need to find out why and not just say "oh it's glitching" because that way you will never learn. I don't know what you were doing when these things happened. Your recollection of what you were doing is almost certainly incorrect. Don't you think it is a little strange that those of us with 1000+ hours behind the G1000 don't have all these problems you're having, and then you come along with what five hours or so, and your expert analysis about "glitches" and "arcane rules". Get some training!

 

[MAKG1]

MAKG, it is OBVIOUS to anyone here who uses the G1000 a lot, daily, that you are not familiar with it. Don't go blaming the machine for "glitching". Whether or not you're PIC, if it doesn't behave the way you were expecting you need to find out why and not just say "oh it's glitching" because that way you will never learn. I don't know what you were doing when these things happened. Your recollection of what you were doing is almost certainly incorrect. Don't you think it is a little strange that those of us with 1000+ hours behind the G1000 don't have all these problems you're having, and then you come along with what five hours or so, and your expert analysis about "glitches" and "arcane rules". Get some training!

OK, so observed glitches "don't happen," because you say so.

Got it.

Let me give you an easier question. Under what circumstances will a properly behaving G1000 displaying PIT mode run the trim away nose down? You're an expert, right? That information should be at your fingertips then.

And the thread is about a STUDENT PILOT. That you might have a 2000 foot pecker is not relevent.

It's much more obvious that you think you know what happened in the flight deck, when you don't. And you're not answering any of the questions, which makes me question whether you really do have the experience you claim you do.

Training is ongoing, but it's not happening from a clueless guy on the internet who insists glitches don't happen.

If you want to teach, teach. But admit it when you're wrong and avoid the stupid name calling. Otherwise, you're just making noise.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I do have enough experience in the G1000 to compare the workload for a student pilot with much less. And yes, it's much more than 5 hours. Sure it's going to be better with a lot of training. As a student pilot, he won't have that for some time. Relevance!

So, tell me, where was I wrong? You say it's obvious, but offer no specifics.

 

[bikert]

There is no name calling from me. I'm not pretending to be an expert just calling out someone who is acting like one. The OP was excited about a cool feature in the G1000, and you felt the need to come on and dismiss based on your limited experience and making a few uniformed comments along the way. I don't know why you had a pitch runaway. There was a mechanical obstruction most likely, and that obstruction was probably you fighting it Why were you in PIT mode anyway? Oh, right, it wasn't you, it was someone else and the dang G1000 was "glitching" like some cheap untested piece of software.

 

[Henning]

The fact that the user interface is so complex that this situation even exists is what exemplifies my preference to the G-600/750 pairing. Luckily the people with a G-1000 or any of the GNS architecture systems now can use their iPad with a GTN interface to be able to rubber band clearance amendments. This is the feature that overcomes the primary problems with the GNS interface architecture, the speed at which you could amend a clearance with a complex V-airways lead in when entering the terminal. I got screwed on that coming into SoCal once when I had to file last minute over Lake Arrowhead for localized low cloud over LGB. He gave me a routing I had no hopes of being able to 'Spin spin push spin spin spin spin push...' on the 530 in time and I didn't have a paper chart. I just had to call him back, "SoCal, unable to program that fast enough in this box and don't have paper. You can either give me vectors, or I'll VFR it to Seal Beach VOR and pick you up there for the ILS." He decided to just vector me, but it's kinda embarrassing to have a $20,000 box that can't be programmed to keep up with your clearance amendments. Rubberbanding solves that very beautifully, and less than $2000 buys it as an upgrade for any GNS 430/530/1000 architecture system.

 

[MAKG1]

There is no name calling from me. I'm not pretending to be an expert just calling out someone who is acting like one. The OP was excited about a cool feature in the G1000, and you felt the need to come on and dismiss based on your limited experience and making a few uniformed comments along the way. I don't know why you had a pitch runaway. There was a mechanical obstruction most likely, and that obstruction was probably you fighting it Why were you in PIT mode anyway? Oh, right, it wasn't you, it was someone else and the dang G1000 was "glitching" like some cheap untested piece of software.

I was in PIT mode because that's what the autopilot does when you first turn it on. You knew that, right? I didn't bother to put it in alt hold because it glitched first.

And if you think I could fight the autopilot that hard, with both aerodynamic and servo forces, without realizing it, you really don't have a clue.

The sequence was: trim for level flight, enter direct-to point with no VNAV, push AP button, nose goes down. Push it again, it doesn't turn off (it should). Push the red button on the yoke and it does.

So, I'll ask again. How did I screw up? No supposition; you've batted .000 so far.

The poor OP thinks this complex system will make him safer in busy airspace. Eventuallly, it might. Not without a lot of training. In the short term, this STUDENT PILOT should look elsewhere. So, how is this wrong? Because you have thousands of hours? Really?

 

[bikert]

Maybe stick with simpler avionics if you don't feel the need for more remedial training

 

[Henning]

Maybe stick with simpler avionics if you don't feel the need for more remedial training

The system should be such that it does not require remedial training. They fixed all this stuff with the GTN box and a simple menu driven interface.

 

[bikert]

The system should be such that it does not require remedial training. They fixed all this stuff with the GTN box and a simple menu driven interface.

That comment wasn't directed at you... I agree the G1000 has an awful interface.

 

[Henning]

That comment wasn't directed at you... I agree the G1000 has an awful interface.

You can't imagine how I hated buying a 430w. There just wasn't a better option at the time. That's why I got a 430w not 530w, hated giving them a dime for it. Now with the FS-210 and Garmin Pilot, it's no longer an issue.

 

[MAKG1]

Maybe stick with simpler avionics if you don't feel the need for more remedial training

Hmm, still no specifics without wrong supposition?

OK, you have nothing to offer then.

 

[denverpilot]

Rubber banding will be greeeeeeeat in turbulence. Hahaha.

 

[bikert]

Hmm, still no specifics without wrong supposition?

OK, you have nothing to offer then.

There is no point in arguing with you. The rest of us with lots of G1000 time know better Get some training it won't hurt. It is nothing to be embarrassed about. I'm sure you're a fine pilot just not as familiar with the G1000. Try to keep an open mind. If this system, or any other complex system, behaves in a strange way don't be tempted to blame it. It is most likely your fault so try to understand what is going on and learn from it.

 

[olasek]

have you ever used VNV? When and where does it descend? I can think of two cases where it won't at all.

This is one was those 'arcane' rules that is spelled out in the manual, should be no surprise to anybody who went through training. If it 'surprises' you and doesn't descend - you can make it descend on your own and perhaps catch up with VNV, for an alert pilot who is not falling behind too much this should be piece of cake. By the way, have you not read from big-iron pilots complaining about how VNAV sometimes surprises them - yeah, the problem is not limited to G1000, VNAV sometimes surprises pilots even those with thousands of hours flying behind millions of $$ worth of avionics (just to mention those poor Asiana pilots at KSFO who were deadly surprised how VNAV works).

 

[Henning]

Rubber banding will be greeeeeeeat in turbulence. Hahaha.

It's not bad, it's even worse at sea and I use it there as well. I just hold it in my lap secure between my legs and last three fingers on the bezel against my leg for reference stability, then use my thumb. The motions are simple enough that I can perform the ambidextrously even. It hasn't proven a big problem yet. Are there errors? Yes, but no more so than I generated with the damned spin push interface of the 430 actually way less. I operated the 750/650 stack in pretty decent turbulence with no issues either using a similar reference stability technique agains the bezel/panel.

 

[MAKG1]

This is one was those 'arcane' rules that is spelled out in the manual, should be no surprise to anybody who went through training. If it 'surprises' you and doesn't descend - you can make it descend on your own and perhaps catch up with VNV, for an alert pilot who is not falling behind too much this should be piece of cake. By the way, have you not read from big-iron pilots complaining about how VNAV sometimes surprises them - yeah, the problem is not limited to G1000, VNAV sometimes surprises pilots even those with thousands of hours flying behind millions of $$ worth of avionics.

No, that feature doesn't surprise me. I did go through that training, and learned rather rapidly to look for the status bar for armed modes and the TOD marker. I did get fooled by the alt bug on my first flight, but I learned that lesson long ago.

But it's definitely arcane. There are a ton of rules, not all of them in the manual (like, for instance, what the legal descent angles are -- that's in third party books).

How does this change the point that this is a lot of complexity for a student pilot? There are a lot of gotchas in this. There really doesn't have to be, but it's what it is.

 

[Henning]

The other big thing the GTN interface gets you is the ability to recover from errors much more quickly.

 

[jordane93]

The other big thing the GTN interface gets you is the ability to recover from errors much more quickly.

Yea the GTN interface is so much simpler and intuitive.

 

[olasek]

How does this change the point that this is a lot of complexity for a student pilot?

Student pilot should not be using VNV. You can get phenomenal use from G1000 without ever pressing the VNV button (you still have access to VNV advisories without pressing this button).

There are a lot of gotchas in this. There really doesn't have to be, but it's what it is.

Clearly there are 'gotchas' in many VNAV implementations, as I showed you there are plenty of such gotchas in avionics (from Boeing, Airbus, etc) that cost millions so please don't BS that something doesn't have to be there because you said so.

 

[Henning]

Yea the GTN interface is so much simpler and intuitive.

I have a CFI buddy who always has upgraded to the best avionics in his Comanche as they came out, and I got to use them all doing BFRs and IPCs with him. When he got the 750/650 stack, there was literally a 15 minute learning curve to know how to get to everything, by just punching around the menus and getting briefed as I did. If you have Garmin Pilot first,there is almost no learning curve.

 

[jordane93]

I have a CFI buddy who always has upgraded to the best avionics in his Comanche as they came out, and I got to use them all doing BFRs and IPCs with him. When he got the 750/650 stack, there was literally a 15 minute learning curve to know how to get to everything, by just punching around the menus and getting briefed as I did. If you have Garmin Pilot first,there is almost no learning curve.

The one thing that sucks is when it is turbulent. I'm proficient and fly IFR regularly on G1000, Persepctive, 430, and 650. I recently flew an older Avidyne Cirrus and wasn't too much of a fan.