KHND to KAPA Route Help

Nick Geber

Nick Geber

Pre-takeoff checklist
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NIckG
I have a Cherokee 235 and was looking for help from the community as to the best routing from KHND (Las Vegas Area) to KAPA in the Denver area.

I’d prefer a good VFR route but can do IFR if necessary (Looks like the MEA’s are a little to high for my bird).

Thoughts?
 
Long but easy way: Via ABQ and Las Vegas, NM
Shorter: Via Taos, NM and La Veta Pass.
More Shorter: Gunnison and follow US 50 then via Marshall Pass
Full Send: --D-->
 
EdFred said:
Long but easy way: Via ABQ and Las Vegas, NM
Shorter: Via Taos, NM and La Veta Pass.
More Shorter: Gunnison and follow US 50 then via Marshall Pass
Full Send: --D-->
Click to expand...
Would love the full send if you can
 
I don’t have o2 but can get some
 
It doesn't take many extra miles to go around some of the highest terrain. And depending on your range at the altitudes involved, you might do better to plan a longer route with a stop, anyhow.
 
iamtheari said:
It doesn't take many extra miles to go around some of the highest terrain. And depending on your range at the altitudes involved, you might do better to plan a longer route with a stop, anyhow.
Click to expand...
Yes, good advise. I will definitely make a stop. Thinking about KABQ
 
Don’t do La Veta pass, take the safer-longer route. Play it safe in the Rockies. Downdrafts and turbulence are nothing to be trifled with in a piston plane.
 
EdFred said:
Long but easy way: Via ABQ and Las Vegas, NM
Shorter: Via Taos, NM and La Veta Pass.
More Shorter: Gunnison and follow US 50 then via Marshall Pass
Full Send: --D-->
Click to expand...
Avoid Monarch (just north of Marshall) but be aware that Marshall Pass can also get very windy
If Marshall or LaVeta is over 20 kts, head south and around.

KSAF TAFOY KLVS and pretty much flat land all the way to KAPA. No need to go over 10K.
TAFOY is the intersection of V60 and V62.
Avoid KCOS airspace, and watch out for the Zoomies at KPUB and near KCOS (IPT at PUB and academy beginners at KCOS) who are criss-crossing E-W while you're heading north. If not IFR, make sure you're on flight following with all the traffic. Pay attention to ADSB but keep your eyes outside! Academy flys older Cirrus, PUB flys DA-20s.

Just north of KCOS, listen on KAPA weather - it's VERY different from KCOS.
O2 helps with the long flight even if you're low.
 
This Colorado Mountain Flying book is a great read. I bought one from the FBO at Pagosa Springs. I’ve done alot of CO flying in a Citation II, but haven’t in piston yet. So far so good, but we have alot of thrust when both engines are running.

Winds aloft direction and intensity can drastically change your experience on any given day. I would recommend the book and get local help like from these posters above.

https://www.sportys.com/flying-colorado-mountain-weather-lamb.html
 
I agree with the post about crossing over the lower terrain and crossing to the plains at ABQ. Be aware that on a windy day, the ride north to KAPA will be bumpy.
 
murphey said:
Avoid Monarch (just north of Marshall) but be aware that Marshall Pass can also get very windy
If Marshall or LaVeta is over 20 kts, head south and around.

KSAF TAFOY KLVS and pretty much flat land all the way to KAPA. No need to go over 10K.
TAFOY is the intersection of V60 and V62.
Avoid KCOS airspace, and watch out for the Zoomies at KPUB and near KCOS (IPT at PUB and academy beginners at KCOS) who are criss-crossing E-W while you're heading north. If not IFR, make sure you're on flight following with all the traffic. Pay attention to ADSB but keep your eyes outside! Academy flys older Cirrus, PUB flys DA-20s.

Just north of KCOS, listen on KAPA weather - it's VERY different from KCOS.
O2 helps with the long flight even if you're low.
Click to expand...
Agree with all of this. If this is your first time near big rocks, go around lower terrain. It's awesome scenic either way. Don't do this in IMC. The -235 has 235hp, right? That's probably min HP if you were going near tall rocks. If I had to punch through Colorado, it would be something like HBU VOR -> Marshall pass (or North Pass) -> up the valley some toward AEJ -> Wilkerson pass -> APA. Note that east of Wilkerson pass until about I-25 there are not a lot of landing options if you lose the screw - very hilly.

Things that would make me bail and go via lower terrain route:
- If I didn't understand the effects of density altitude on my wing (ASI) or engine (red knob)
- If I didn’t use the FAA weather cams before the flight to verify conditions (https://weathercams.faa.gov/)
- if Winds aloft at 9 and/or 12k over 25kts (or even 20)
- If 3k ft above the highest pass puts me in IMC or less than 15 sm viz.. recall mountain weather changes rapidly
- Too much fuel / weight (but still landing with 1hr + fuel at APA). I wouldn't fuel past MTJ and I would not take off with weight more than 90% max gross.
- Unable to hit 1k AGL over the highest pass elevation 5nm before the pass, and the pass is too narrow to 180-it
- Unable to file a VFR flight plan
- ELT not working really well
- Having to fly in the afternoon
 
kaiser said:
Agree with all of this. If this is your first time near big rocks, go around lower terrain. It's awesome scenic either way. Don't do this in IMC. The -235 has 235hp, right? That's probably min HP if you were going near tall rocks. If I had to punch through Colorado, it would be something like HBU VOR -> Marshall pass (or North Pass) -> up the valley some toward AEJ -> Wilkerson pass -> APA. Note that east of Wilkerson pass until about I-25 there are not a lot of landing options if you lose the screw - very hilly.

Things that would make me bail and go via lower terrain route:
- If I didn't understand the effects of density altitude on my wing (ASI) or engine (red knob)
- If I didn’t use the FAA weather cams before the flight to verify conditions (https://weathercams.faa.gov/)
- if Winds aloft at 9 and/or 12k over 25kts (or even 20)
- If 3k ft above the highest pass puts me in IMC or less than 15 sm viz.. recall mountain weather changes rapidly
- Too much fuel / weight (but still landing with 1hr + fuel at APA). I wouldn't fuel past MTJ and I would not take off with weight more than 90% max gross.
- Unable to hit 1k AGL over the highest pass elevation 5nm before the pass, and the pass is too narrow to 180-it
- Unable to file a VFR flight plan
- ELT not working really well
- Having to fly in the afternoon
Click to expand...

I have more than a few hours in my 235. I fly out of Henderson in Las Vegas with lots of hot, high DA. I am IR but would prefer to fly this trip VFR with some flight following. I hate flying over mountains with only one engine and no BRS. Therefore I will avoid it and take the longer, scenic route. If I have to get there on time I’ll fly commercial.
 
Simply put, your airplane, while being a great plane (in my opinion) is NOT capable of IFR in the rocks. It's that simple. Yes if you know the area and have lots of time in the area you can make it work, but always iffy. Get a good mountain check out, its great fun and really worthy of your time and rewarding. Mountain flying can be some of the best flying there is, but be respectful. Go early in the day, that is a big key in flying the rocks. Think of the mountains a 1/2 of a venturi. So if the wind is 10 kts in leadville, it probably is 30+ over Westin Pass. do the math on that. What climb rate do you need to out climb that down draft, can you maintain that climb in turbulance at a DA of 13K ft? Just some of the things worth thinking about. Know where you are always, is that a box canyon that you can't out climb with the down draft that is occurring. Lots of canyons look similar. 4 place airplanes are 2 place airplanes in the mountains. You can certainly do otherwise with experience and planning, but it s a good starting point. It's been a while since i did mountain flying training, but it was some of the most rewarding flying I have done.
 
Oldmanb777 said:
Simply put, your airplane, while being a great plane (in my opinion) is NOT capable of IFR in the rocks. It's that simple. Yes if you know the area and have lots of time in the area you can make it work, but always iffy. Get a good mountain check out, its great fun and really worthy of your time and rewarding. Mountain flying can be some of the best flying there is, but be respectful. Go early in the day, that is a big key in flying the rocks. Think of the mountains a 1/2 of a venturi. So if the wind is 10 kts in leadville, it probably is 30+ over Westin Pass. do the math on that. What climb rate do you need to out climb that down draft, can you maintain that climb in turbulance at a DA of 13K ft? Just some of the things worth thinking about. Know where you are always, is that a box canyon that you can't out climb with the down draft that is occurring. Lots of canyons look similar. 4 place airplanes are 2 place airplanes in the mountains. You can certainly do otherwise with experience and planning, but it s a good starting point. It's been a while since i did mountain flying training, but it was some of the most rewarding flying I have done.
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree. I will not be flying IFR over the rockies. I'm taking the long route.
 
Nick Geber said:
Yes, I agree. I will not be flying IFR over the rockies. I'm taking the long route.
Click to expand...
When are you planning to make the trip? Might be a good opportunity for a POA meetup
 
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