Just how expensive is flying?

steingar said:
I went home and told Mrs. Steingar that if she let me buy the airplane I'd never mention Hawaii again. She acquiesced immediately, and even goes on an airplane flight en quando en ves.
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It's the 'if you want a puppy ask for a pony' strategy. I managed to wrestle my dads consent for flying lessons out of him in exchange for not riding a motorcycle (I never planned to in the first place :wink2: ).
 
Challenged said:
I got the impression that the guy was mildly upset when he was discussing his situation with me. What I couldn't discern was why he was troubled.
I didn't want to probe too much, since he didn't seem terribly happy. Whatever the reason, we lost another potential pilot today at least for the foreseeable future, which is unfortunate for our entire community.
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I think this thought was lost, and you are right it is sad. Your generosity to allow him to fly your plane for fuel only is to be commended. I am sure he is tortured by the decision. I would call him up in a month and take him out for a beer.

Your coworker is also to be commended. From the sounds of it he is taking his future family seriously and putting his priorities in order. I wanted to fly when I was 25 but I had two kids to raise. I soloed at 45.
 
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I haven't seen it mentioned, so I'll say it. Perhaps, if he was only taking instruction because a plane was provided free, he wasn't a good candidate to stick with it in the first place.
 
Or maybe hey thought. If it costs this much and the plane is free, I really cannot justify the expenditure. But, once I figure this kid thing out, I can re-engage this aviation bug of mine. I wouldn't say he is lost to flying, yet!
 
In 25 years he'll show up at the FBO and tell an instructor younger than his kids how he used to fly a friends plane for gas only but his ex-wife made him quit and now that the kid is out of college he has the money to finally finish that private cert.
 
tonycondon said:
In 25 years he'll show up at the FBO and tell an instructor younger than his kids how he used to fly a friends plane for gas only but his ex-wife made him quit and now that the kid is out of college he has the money to finally finish that private cert.
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So true.

Actually, he'll have some choice words how he could be flying a jet with the money he has spent on his starter-wife and the divorce he has been through :D .
 
Most people have to make adjustments when they have a baby. That is totally normal. For me, it was giving up the convertible and getting a sensible SUV (at the time), moving out of a really cool apartment and into a house in a boring suburb, wasting money on overly expensive baby furniture (like they even know what they're sleeping in), etc. I was not flying at the time, so did not have to give that up but believe me at the time I would have as well.

Things do return to "normal" eventually. Since then we've had 3 kids now, and I have slowly rebuilt my toy collection (including plane and a couple of sport cars). When the first kid was approaching, I got scared and downsized to make sure I was not overextended. Family really does have to come first, but the other stuff can come as well and if he really wants to fly he will get back into it.
 
I refuse to give up the convertible. It's paid off anyway.
 
Spend the money quickly and finish up, and then if she doesn't like it, it's too late as the money is already spent. :)
 
Your friend is missing the real picture.
He was an aviator first (I think)? Flying is part of the deal. That's how it works.
 
Gubbins said:
Most people have to make adjustments when they have a baby. That is totally normal. For me, it was giving up the convertible and getting a sensible SUV (at the time), moving out of a really cool apartment and into a house in a boring suburb, wasting money on overly expensive baby furniture (like they even know what they're sleeping in), etc. I was not flying at the time, so did not have to give that up but believe me at the time I would have as well.
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Not directed at you specifically but none of what you mentioned above is essential. People just choose to do that. People overextend themselves all the time just because "everything for baby". It's like people are surgical about their monthly expenditures and the second the acquisition is a rug rat, cost awareness just goes out the window.

I've seen it with my peers. One baby, new minivan. Why? Because momma is hormonal and out her rocker and the perceived convenience of side door access (for ONE newborn baby mind you) justifies not even a used, but a new 40K lost-10K-the-second-you-drove-it-off-the-lot spaceship fortress on wheels. Completely manufactured "necessities" of child rearing. Same goes for housing acquisitions, exaggerated assessment of what nominal day care service should entail, health care add-ons et al ad nauseam. Within that CULTure, yes it is entirely possible to witness the outright elimination of discretionary recreational activities from a person's life under the heavy burden of sudden and carte blanche children-related expenditures. And it is completely avoidable.

Judging by that yardstick, my upbringing qualifies as outright neglect, bordering on the criminal. Riding on the back of that Oldsmobile Omega with no seatbelts on, being driven home from my first week of life at the hospital in a car with NO air conditioner and being hot and crying as a newborn... sweet Joseph and doggiestyle Mary, the humanity! Sweating my armpits off in high school taking the SAT on that room with no air conditioner and storm windows, destined for failure. Oh wait, I managed to complete two degrees in aerospace engineering and a set of silver wings from the US Air Force :idea:. Guess that daily ride to school in the Olds Omega and no access to gold plated day care/expensive school district didn't quite cripple me for life.

I tell my parents all the time, smoke your money, all of it. Leave the estate with a fat bill for your funeral, you gave me an education which is the gift of a lifetime, you don't owe me jack. The last thing I want to hear out of my parents is the mere suggestion they had to lose their identity in order to afford me. Screw that backwards social policy. I want to share with my children what makes ME tick as a human being. That is the real gift one can give to your replacements. If you have to curtail the essence of who you are in order to provide your children access to basic living then my friends, you just can't afford children. From my cursory bean keeping on this topic, most people CAN afford kids, it's just that they self-impose these expenditures, that are all but necessary. My theory is that most people live such identity-less drudgery-laden work-centered lives that their only outlet is to live vicariously through their children and the potential of seeing them become more interesting versions of the men and women parents are not. And you know where that starts? That's right, at the seemly costless decision to give up a recreational pursuit for gold platted pampers, if I may be halfway facetious.

Don't buy a big house and a minivan, instead take your sweaty kid to the airport in your beater, and provide them with the real seeds of success: the image of a father who is happy with his daily reality and who by that measure proves that life is worth living forward, not some work beat-down chump who silently hates his circumstances and can't wait for your a$s to go to college so he can start living his life. Many peers of that flavor too, one high school graduation away from divorcing their aviation non-supporting spouse, moving to Tampa, taking the sr-20 down and starting their life at 55. Sad.:(
 
bbchien said:
Your friend is missing the real picture.
He was an aviator first (I think)? Flying is part of the deal. That's how it works.
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This.

In June we'll have been married 41 years. In July it will be 42 years since I started flying. It's working, so far.

Mark
 
weilke said:
Nothing to do with money. Wifey told him 'we are having a kid, I didn't marry you for you to go out and kill yourself in one of those little-plane deathtraps'. If he spent the same money on chess lessons with a grand-master, the amount would not be an issue.
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The OP said they were "thinking" about a kid. Even if it happens tonight, he's got 9 months to finish the rating before the kid shows up.

If all its costing is fuel and CFI, it will never get any cheaper.

There is something else going on.
 
weilke said:
So true.

Actually, he'll have some choice words how he could be flying a jet with the money he has spent on his starter-wife and the divorce he has been through :D .
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Usually the trophy wife can be more expensive.
 
GrampaMark said:
This.

In June we'll have been married 41 years. In July it will be 42 years since I started flying. It's working, so far.

Mark
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35 yrs married last December, 37 years flying. She even picked the anniversary date of my Pvt Pilot check ride so I would not forget our wedding anniversary.
 
Life is a series of trade-offs. I wanted to learn to fly my whole life. Couldn't afford it, or didn't have the time, or both for years. When my wife found out we could fly across the state in about 2 hours, instead of a 5 1/2 to 6 hour drive, she thought that maybe I should learn to fly. And this while we had a kid or two in college. But, we finally nad the money and time at the same time. PP checkride was about 11 years ago. And the choice to wait was purely finance driven part of the time and available time driven part of the time.

Back to the question in the subject line - how expensive is it? As expensive as you want to make it.
 
bbchien said:
Your friend is missing the real picture.
He was an aviator first (I think)? Flying is part of the deal. That's how it works.
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That is a discussion I had with my wife, right about when she was home with a newborn and I was off flying on the weekends to finish my rating :redface: .
 
hindsight2020 said:
I've seen it with my peers. One baby, new minivan. Why? Because momma is hormonal and out her rocker and the perceived convenience of side door access (for ONE newborn baby mind you) justifies not even a used, but a new 40K lost-10K-the-second-you-drove-it-off-the-lot spaceship fortress on wheels.


(
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I loathe minivans. My newborn and also my German Shepherd will fit on the back seat of my convertible. There is absolutely no chance in hell I would ever drive a minivan.
 
Very well said Hindsight. Not much to add to that.
 
I drove a minivan for a while and I don't even have kids...
 
We got married at the lake house and took our honeymoon in the plane.
Flash forward 18 years... No lake house and no airplane.

I want a refund. Product was not as presented. Hindsight2020s comment rings true:

"one high school graduation away from divorcing their aviation non-supporting spouse, moving to Tampa, taking the sr-20 down and starting their life at 55. Sad.:( "
 
hindsight2020 said:
My theory is that most people live such identity-less drudgery-laden work-centered lives that their only outlet is to live vicariously through their children and the potential of seeing them become more interesting versions of the men and women parents are not.
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I pray this is never me.

Thanks for taking the time to type all of that out... it's thought-provoking and inspiring as well.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Judging by that yardstick, my upbringing qualifies as outright neglect, bordering on the criminal.
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:rofl: You and me both. If a parent today let their kid do what I did they'd be locked up. If they're gang banging crackheads, well, there's nothing a parent can do about that...:rolleyes:

hindsight2020 said:
My theory is that most people live such identity-less drudgery-laden work-centered lives that their only outlet is to live vicariously through their children and the potential of seeing them become more interesting versions of the men and women parents are not. And you know where that starts? That's right, at the seemly costless decision to give up a recreational pursuit for gold platted pampers, if I may be halfway facetious.
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Yep, and by the time the kids are 17 not one of them can give you a good reason for having a kid much less multitudes.... :lol: But it also serves as an excuse to not do those things they want but are afraid of, "Can't risk it", it allows for the easy path of martyrdom for their children, a reason not to take risks, a level of personal security.

hindsight2020 said:
Don't buy a big house and a minivan, instead take your sweaty kid to the airport in your beater, and provide them with the real seeds of success: the image of a father who is happy with his daily reality and who by that measure proves that life is worth living forward, not some work beat-down chump who silently hates his circumstances and can't wait for your a$s to go to college so he can start living his life. Many peers of that flavor too, one high school graduation away from divorcing their aviation non-supporting spouse, moving to Tampa, taking the sr-20 down and starting their life at 55. Sad.:(
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I'll skip the children, they make absolutely no sense except for resale. I find it hilarious when people with children bust on me for putting a G-500 in my 310...:rofl::rofl::rofl:.
 
People often end up much like their parents, even when they vow they won't.

Corollary: If you want to raise interesting kids who do something you don't, you'll probably have to change yourself to set the example. Or find someone else to be the kid's role model.

But I have no kids, and won't tell anyone else how to raise theirs...
 
Challenged said:
I got the impression that the guy was mildly upset when he was discussing his situation with me. What I couldn't discern was why he was troubled. The thoughts I had on this while talking to him were:


  • He didn't want to quit flying, but his wife insisted.
  • He didn't want to have a child, but his wife insisted.
  • He didn't want to quit flying, but his finances insisted.
  • He was embarrassed that he had to tell me that he was no longer able to fly.
I didn't want to probe too much, since he didn't seem terribly happy. Whatever the reason, we lost another potential pilot today at least for the foreseeable future, which is unfortunate for our entire community.
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Or he is embarrassed that his solo flight scared him and he can't admit that to a buddy. (I've been scared during a flight or two or three. Still going @ 500+ hours.)
Even given the airplane, his out of pocket expense per hour still ranges around $70, not to mention YOUR costs. Aviation isn't cheap but then, I know guys who pour money into racing or boating or golf. A kid does not have to change that.
Go enjoy your hobby. If you don't make time for yourself, ANY relationship will suffer. You should not put YOUR LIFE on hold because of your spouse or kids. Share it but don't give it up.
 
Wow, this sure turned into a celebration of triumphantly bloated individualistic self-actualization. Nietzsche would be proud.

But he's dead.

Some of us raise families, stay married (over 31 here), while maintaining a healthy mix of church, work, hobbies, and flying.

Boring?

How? There's no time to be bored.

Janet and I cycle together (Cannondale tandem), do multi-day canoe trips (Wenonah 18'), travel, and go for long walks in between visits with two adorable grandchildren. We also read several books a week, keep up with the Pittsburgh Penguins, and I even have time to waste on Pilot Web Boards.

Oh -- and we once owned a Dodge Voyager Minivan (though I do prefer zipping along on my FZ1)
 
We have a minivan too. So what. I don't drive it, I drive something a lot more fun, on the way to the hangar :D And my wife has something else to drive too when she is not taking the kids somewhere.

I still stand by the statement that your kids have to come first, otherwise you should NOT have kids. It is possible to have both kids and a flying hobby. You just have to work harder to have it all, and if you want it enough you will do it.
 
The wife and I have a two year old and a 4.5 month old... My wife is a stay at home mom and I still have to ask... where the heck do people find the time for hobbies???? I've just started looking at purchasing another plane, wife says go for it, but I'm worried about the time I will have to fly it, among other things...
 
jmp470 said:
The wife and I have a two year old and a 4.5 month old... My wife is a stay at home mom and I still have to ask... where the heck do people find the time for hobbies???? I've just started looking at purchasing another plane, wife says go for it, but I'm worried about the time I will have to fly it, among other things...
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Sleep less :D

It will get better. You have your hands full right now, but in a few years things will get easier. Be thankful that you have an understanding wife who supports your hobby.
 
Have had several aviation fights. Hopefully I don't have to lose an SO over flying. In other words, I'm getting more and more "into it" and I have the feeling that after a couple of "ho hum" not exciting flights he's "over it." Like been there, done that, don't see what the attraction is.

And I'm the GIRL!!!
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Have had several aviation fights. Hopefully I don't have to lose an SO over flying. In other words, I'm getting more and more "into it" and I have the feeling that after a couple of "ho hum" not exciting flights he's "over it." Like been there, done that, don't see what the attraction is.

And I'm the GIRL!!!
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If you have a committment to GA, then you'll want to resolve this NOW, and not after. If you know what I mean. It can be the source of a lot of issues, with time, money, priorities, etc.
 
Anthony said:
If you have a committment to GA, then you'll want to resolve this NOW, and not after. If you know what I mean. It can be the source of a lot of issues, with time, money, priorities, etc.
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having a partner who is interested in aviation is a considered a good thing and probably just as good is a spouse who is supportive even if they personally don't care to fly. if you want to have a long happy life (happy wife happy life etc.) then best to filter out the potential partner who is unsupportive of something you are passionate about.
 
Yeah, what Anthony said, with one caveat. In a sane world hobbies come and go, spouses are forever. I know a lot of people (self included) who were passionately obsessed with various hobbies at one time or another, and are much less so now. You always want to project out a few years. "Will I still be as totally gung ho about this once the newness wears off?" And, "Is this level of passion going to last longer, and grow more deep, than my feelings for my (BF, wife, hubby or whatever)?"
 
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