Just finished PPC, should I go right into IFR?

[ActiveAir]

Just finished PPC, and some have told me to wait a bit before going after IR. Why? I know I'll need 50 hrs. x-country (plus other min. reqs.). If I buy into the Comanche, I will also need complex and hi pro. Any thoughts on why to wait? Time and resources are not an issue.

 

[bobmrg]

Don't wait. The fact that you are involved in training for the instrument rating does not mean that you are prohibited from taking the airplane out for a VFR crosscountry or two...the more the merrier. You need the PIC time anyway. The more familiar you are with the airplane, the quicker the transition to instruments.

Bob Gardner

 

[Ken Ibold]

If you totally immerse youself in your IR training, you may find your VFR procedures atrophy. The school of thought that says you should wait allows you to burn in the VFR stuff before shifting over to IFR. Of course, there is then the very dangerous issue of VFR into IMC to consider.

I certainly don't have the instructional experience of Bob, but I do know that when I went through my aerobatics phase after years of filing IFR pretty much every flight, I had forgotten a lot of the nuances of VFR flight.

 

[wabower]

Just finished PPC, and some have told me to wait a bit before going after IR. Why? I know I'll need 50 hrs. x-country (plus other min. reqs.). If I buy into the Comanche, I will also need complex and hi pro. Any thoughts on why to wait? Time and resources are not an issue.

Agree totally with Bob, and in your case many reasons that training will be both required and valuable. Be sure to get a few extra doses of unusual attitude recovery in the Indian, every trick he can think of.

 

[AdamZ]

If you totally immerse youself in your IR training, you may find your VFR procedures atrophy. The school of thought that says you should wait allows you to burn in the VFR stuff before shifting over to IFR. Of course, there is then the very dangerous issue of VFR into IMC to consider.

I certainly don't have the instructional experience of Bob, but I do know that when I went through my aerobatics phase after years of filing IFR pretty much every flight, I had forgotten a lot of the nuances of VFR flight.

Ken Very well Stated.

 

[SkyHog]

Well, from a person that waited (me):

I got my PPC 4.5 years ago (holy cow). I planned on letting the VFR stuff burn in, and figured I'd get to the IR in about 6 months.

I still don't have it done.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you plan on doing your IR at a slower pace (a flight or two a week) over an extended period, starting IR training now is not a bad idea as long as you get some of the book learning done first. You'll be able to practice what you learn on flights between lessons and build your XC PIC time as you go. If you plan on doing a 10-day or other intensive course, get more experience under your belt first, including 45 or so of the 50 hours of XC PIC time.

 

[RMCN172RG]

I went the other way and started my IFR 4 days after my PPC check ride. I did the IFR part 141 to reduce the overall cost and tried to fly 2-3 times per week.

I found it easy to keep going and reinforcing while everything is still fresh in your mind.

I do not beleive that working on the IFR had a negative effect on my VFR flying.

 

[Walt]

I'm with Ron, you need some VFR experience before you start flying instrument PIC. One thing to consider is how much time and money you have to work on the rating. The instrument requires a lot of study time. At the PPL level you are going to have to really increase you knowledge base. I would not start until I had the time and money to complete the rating.

 

[ActiveAir]

Don't wait. The fact that you are involved in training for the instrument rating does not mean that you are prohibited from taking the airplane out for a VFR crosscountry or two...the more the merrier. You need the PIC time anyway. The more familiar you are with the airplane, the quicker the transition to instruments.

Bob Gardner

Good point. Thanks.

If you totally immerse youself in your IR training, you may find your VFR procedures atrophy. The school of thought that says you should wait allows you to burn in the VFR stuff before shifting over to IFR. Of course, there is then the very dangerous issue of VFR into IMC to consider.

I certainly don't have the instructional experience of Bob, but I do know that when I went through my aerobatics phase after years of filing IFR pretty much every flight, I had forgotten a lot of the nuances of VFR flight.

Hadn't thought of that. I'll keep in mind the mix. In So Cal, don't get much op. for IMC. But that won't stop me from getting the rating, just means I may not use it in real IMC much. Of course, there is the smog...

Agree totally with Bob, and in your case many reasons that training will be both required and valuable. Be sure to get a few extra doses of unusual attitude recovery in the Indian, every trick he can think of.

Thanks. I always liked the unusual att. training, as limited as it was for PPC.

Well, from a person that waited (me):

I got my PPC 4.5 years ago (holy cow). I planned on letting the VFR stuff burn in, and figured I'd get to the IR in about 6 months.

I still don't have it done.

I hear this a lot, and think it might happen to me if I don't just keep going.

If you plan on doing your IR at a slower pace (a flight or two a week) over an extended period, starting IR training now is not a bad idea as long as you get some of the book learning done first. You'll be able to practice what you learn on flights between lessons and build your XC PIC time as you go. If you plan on doing a 10-day or other intensive course, get more experience under your belt first, including 45 or so of the 50 hours of XC PIC time.

This is right on target. I'm thinking King's DVD course now, then into the flying. Might end up w/the 10 day deal, but think I'll lay down some precursor stuff you mention. If I do the Comanche, I'll need complex and hi pro first anyway. Thanks, again.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you're thinking about the 10-day program, please consider this, based on my experience teaching such courses for PIC...

First, the training is incredibly intense. Most of my students say they were surprised by the level of intensity -- 8-9 hours a day, 10 days in a row, plus a couple of hours of homework every night. If you do this on vacation, make sure you're off work for 14 days, because you'll probably need the other four days at the end to recover before going back to work.

Second, that which is quickly learned is as quickly forgotten unless as quickly exercised. In order to "fix" the newly/quickly learned material in your brain, you must fly one or two IFR hops a week for four to six weeks starting immediately after the practical test. If you don't, within a month, you'll be as though you never took the course (well, not quite that bad, but you certainly won't be ready to launch solo into the IFR system in real IMC).

Third, you'd better be proficient in the plane in which you will take your training. No trading your 172 on a Bonanza two weeks before the IR course, getting five hours transition training from your local CFI, and expecting the IR course to go well. This is especially true for lower-time pilots with no experience in anything but the simple trainer in which they got their 50 XC PIC who then bought something heavy and/or complicated and/or really different, and immediately try to get their IR in it. If you only fly 30 hours a year, and they're the same 30 hours year after year, you probably need a quick proficiency cram course (a commercial pilot flight maneuvers program would be about right) prior to the IR course.

Fourth, you must be academically prepared. If your only IR ground training before the 10-day course is one of those 2-day written test cram courses, you won't know anything but the answers to the written test, and you will not be able to finish the IR flight course in ten days -- figure two to four days extra to learn all the material that would otherwise be learned in a real IR ground training course. I recommend any or all of the following, choice based on your own learning style (and whether or not you can sit still for Martha King):

· Formal IR ground school of 40 hours or so classroom plus home assignments (like those offered by many flight schools and community colleges)
· Self-paced computer based training course like Jeppesen's FliteSchool
· DVD course like King or others
· Book learning, using a good training manual like Bob Gardner's Complete Advanced Pilot or Bill Kersher's Instrument Flight Manual, and/or the FAA Instrument Flight Handbook and FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook

In addition, you should study the following books:

· Current FAR/AIM (especially the ASA version with the list of recommended FAR's and AIM sections for IR/CFII)
· FAA AC 00-6A Aviation Weather
· FAA AC 00-45F Aviation Weather Products

Finally, you must dedicate yourself entirely to the program. Don't just turn off your Blackberry -- leave it in the office. Explain to your family that this isn't a vacation, this isn't even work -- they can't expect you to participate in anything other than your training for the duration. Forget about catching up on your reading (other than IR training books) or email or internet chat. You will eat, sleep, and breathe instrument flying for 10 days, and if you clutter your mind with, or spend your time on, anything else, it won't happen on schedule.

With this preparation, you will find a program like PIC's productive and useful. You'll get real IR training, including sim training (which is highly useful in making the flight time more productive -- teach on the ground, practice in the plane), from a highly experienced instructor (PIC's average 8000 hours) with real-world IFR experience, and you will be well-prepared for actual IFR operations. You will also experience real IFR flying in real IFR weather -- something I consider invaluable, and something your local time-building CFI with no significant real IFR experience may not be comfortable doing. Without this preparation, you'll just end up tired and frustrated – and your instructor will, too, because s/he wants you to succeed just as much as you do.

 

[ActiveAir]

I went the other way and started my IFR 4 days after my PPC check ride. I did the IFR part 141 to reduce the overall cost and tried to fly 2-3 times per week.

I found it easy to keep going and reinforcing while everything is still fresh in your mind.

I do not beleive that working on the IFR had a negative effect on my VFR flying.

Thanks. Have you completed and how long did it take at that rate (2 -3x/wk)?

I'm with Ron, you need some VFR experience before you start flying instrument PIC. One thing to consider is how much time and money you have to work on the rating. The instrument requires a lot of study time. At the PPL level you are going to have to really increase you knowledge base. I would not start until I had the time and money to complete the rating.

Time and money available. I hear you on increasing the knowledge base. I'm still very much in sponge mode - probably too much according to the wife. I can feel the addiction setting in.

 

[ActiveAir]

If you're thinking about the 10-day program, please consider this, based on my experience teaching such courses for PIC...

First, the training is incredibly intense. Most of my students say they were surprised by the level of intensity -- 8-9 hours a day, 10 days in a row, plus a couple of hours of homework every night. If you do this on vacation, make sure you're off work for 14 days, because you'll probably need the other four days at the end to recover before going back to work.

Second, that which is quickly learned is as quickly forgotten unless as quickly exercised. In order to "fix" the newly/quickly learned material in your brain, you must fly one or two IFR hops a week for four to six weeks starting immediately after the practical test. If you don't, within a month, you'll be as though you never took the course (well, not quite that bad, but you certainly won't be ready to launch solo into the IFR system in real IMC).

Third, you'd better be proficient in the plane in which you will take your training. No trading your 172 on a Bonanza two weeks before the IR course, getting five hours transition training from your local CFI, and expecting the IR course to go well. This is especially true for lower-time pilots with no experience in anything but the simple trainer in which they got their 50 XC PIC who then bought something heavy and/or complicated and/or really different, and immediately try to get their IR in it. If you only fly 30 hours a year, and they're the same 30 hours year after year, you probably need a quick proficiency cram course (a commercial pilot flight maneuvers program would be about right) prior to the IR course.

Fourth, you must be academically prepared. If your only IR ground training before the 10-day course is one of those 2-day written test cram courses, you won't know anything but the answers to the written test, and you will not be able to finish the IR flight course in ten days -- figure two to four days extra to learn all the material that would otherwise be learned in a real IR ground training course. I recommend any or all of the following, choice based on your own learning style (and whether or not you can sit still for Martha King):

· Formal IR ground school of 40 hours or so classroom plus home assignments (like those offered by many flight schools and community colleges)
· Self-paced computer based training course like Jeppesen's FliteSchool
· DVD course like King or others
· Book learning, using a good training manual like Bob Gardner's Complete Advanced Pilot or Bill Kersher's Instrument Flight Manual, and/or the FAA Instrument Flight Handbook and FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook

In addition, you should study the following books:

· Current FAR/AIM (especially the ASA version with the list of recommended FAR's and AIM sections for IR/CFII)
· FAA AC 00-6A Aviation Weather
· FAA AC 00-45F Aviation Weather Products

Finally, you must dedicate yourself entirely to the program. Don't just turn off your Blackberry -- leave it in the office. Explain to your family that this isn't a vacation, this isn't even work -- they can't expect you to participate in anything other than your training for the duration. Forget about catching up on your reading (other than IR training books) or email or internet chat. You will eat, sleep, and breathe instrument flying for 10 days, and if you clutter your mind with, or spend your time on, anything else, it won't happen on schedule.

With this preparation, you will find a program like PIC's productive and useful. You'll get real IR training, including sim training (which is highly useful in making the flight time more productive -- teach on the ground, practice in the plane), from a highly experienced instructor (PIC's average 8000 hours) with real-world IFR experience, and you will be well-prepared for actual IFR operations. You will also experience real IFR flying in real IFR weather -- something I consider invaluable, and something your local time-building CFI with no significant real IFR experience may not be comfortable doing. Without this preparation, you'll just end up tired and frustrated – and your instructor will, too, because s/he wants you to succeed just as much as you do.

Thank you for posting this again ( isaw you had posted it elsewhere, recently), for me. Too bad you're not an instructor out here, I greatly appreciate your thorough answers in most of your posts (and I'm no 'brown noser"). Amazing what you can learn on these boards.

Which home study course is most effective? I did the Cessna/King thing for PPC, and I actually knew one of the presenters. He was the guy from the TV show "Who wants to Marry a Millionare" and a comedian, years ago - Rick Rockwell. I think I can hang with Martha, although one night I was beginning to wonder...

Wait a minute, I recognize that name, Bob Gardner (a few posts up). I will look for his book, too.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Thanks. Have you completed and how long did it take at that rate (2 -3x/wk)?

Time and money available. I hear you on increasing the knowledge base. I'm still very much in sponge mode - probably too much according to the wife. I can feel the addiction setting in.

Completed the IR training in 5 months. The real world has a way of slowing things up.

Edit: One year from first flight to IR rated.

 

[poadeleted20]

Which home study course is most effective?

The one that best fits your learning style. For some, that's books; for others, it's DVD's, or interactive computer-based training, or the classic classroom format.

And if you like books, Bob Gardner's Complete Advanced Pilot will do very well to get you through IR and Commercial -- the 4th edition just came out.

 

[Ted]

I think I waited a total of about 2 weeks before I started my IR training after my PPL. It was just long enough for me to enjoy having it, use it a little bit, and also wait for my instructor to get a few things taken care of before we dove into it.

I did my IR in a total of about 4 months. In that time, I was aiming to fly 2-3 times per week. We had a total of maybe 4 weeks in there that I didn't do any lessons, either because I was out of town (such as for OSH) or he was out of town. We did a couple of big trips in there. Every evening after work if I wasn't taking a flying lesson, I was studying for the written. For me, this was the best way to go about it. The problem with doing the 10-day IR training as far as I'm concerned is that it's too packed. I know that my mind gets saturated too quickly, especially at the beginning, for something like that to give me any sort of worthwhile memory retention. It was the same for when I did my complex endorsement - my instructor made us split it up over the course of several days. I know I remembered more from that than if we just went up and flew around for 5 hours to give me my sign-off.

The other advantage to doing it the way I did was that you were studying for the written while learning the actual flying portion. Doing it that way really makes both easier. I started doing studying for my IR written before I took a single IR lesson, and it was a complete waste of time. None of it made sense. Get a few lessons under me and then suddenly approach plates and holding patterns make sense.

So, what I'd say is jump into it soon (preferably in whatever plane you plan on doing a lot of flying in afterwards), try to fly 2-3 times a week, study for the written when you aren't flying, and get it done in a few months. Get as much actual IMC as you can in the process.

 

[Teller1900]

Time and resources are not an issue.

Feel free to give me some of either!

I think everyone else has given you great answers, and I certainly can't see any particular reason to wait. It was almost four years for me after I got my PPC before I started my IR, but I did one of the fast paced programs and got it done in just a shade over two weeks. As Ron noted, it's incredibly intense, but very effective if you can commit yourself to it. Also, as Ken mentioned, VFR skills atrophy quickly if you're IR-only, but a few fun VFR flights here and there will take care of that. Whatever route you take, good luck!

 

[KennyFlys]

I gotta wonder about that Bob Gardner fella. He always types in blue!

 

[coach]

Just finished PPC, and some have told me to wait a bit before going after IR. Why? I know I'll need 50 hrs. x-country (plus other min. reqs.). If I buy into the Comanche, I will also need complex and hi pro. Any thoughts on why to wait? Time and resources are not an issue.

My theory was to enjoy my PPL for a while before I starting instrument training, but not to wait so long that I forgot the book work and basics of what I just learned.

I waited about 6 months after I got my PPL before I thought about instruments. I started studying and passed my written 2 months later. One year and one month after I passed my first check ride I passed my second. It worked out well for me Best wishes.

 

[HPNFlyGirl]

I waited before starting the IR. I mean it took me almost 8 yrs. and 23 CFI's later to obtain my private, so I was going to enjoy it.

 

[silver-eagle]

I started IR a little over a 3 months after I got my PP (5 years ago) because of a couple of aborted flights due to fog and rain at the local field. For other reasons, after 16 hours sim, I had to put it off until just this year. So now I'm starting anew.
IR will make you a better pilot, but then again, so will flying regularly. There's no right answer as to when to start. If you're ready, go for it. Get a few hours straight VFR mixed in with your lessons. Fly for fun, too. It can't be all about school. Remember what you thought about school.

 

[Sam D]

Third, you'd better be proficient in the plane in which you will take your training. No trading your 172 on a Bonanza two weeks before the IR course, getting five hours transition training from your local CFI, and expecting the IR course to go well. This is especially true for lower-time pilots with no experience in anything but the simple trainer in which they got their 50 XC PIC who then bought something heavy and/or complicated and/or really different, and immediately try to get their IR in it. If you only fly 30 hours a year, and they're the same 30 hours year after year, you probably need a quick proficiency cram course (a commercial pilot flight maneuvers program would be about right) prior to the IR course.

I'm in this category having just gotten checked out in a Lance. And I've been thinking along the same lines. My challenge has been setting some goals as far as what is meant by 'proficient'. Here are some thoughts, I'd welcome more:
1) Basic S&L flight -- able to hold altitude and heading (interestingly for me, I've found that this is not as much of a no-brainer as in a 172)
2) Climbs/descents -- able to initiate, maintain and complete climbs and descents with good technique (appropriate power settings, at right altitudes). Also know power settings/config for 500 and 700 fpm descents for prec/no prec approaches
3) Turns -- able to make 1/2 standard through steep turns smoothly, on altitude and heading
4) Nav equipment -- Know it all and how it works
5) Auto pilot -- Part of me doesn't want to touch it until after the IR, but it probably makes sense to work it into the training at some point. So I should get familiar with it.
6) Engine monitor -- while not critical for IR, its new and I need to know it better

Thanks,
Sam

 

[bobmrg]

I gotta wonder about that Bob Gardner fella. He always types in blue!

Red Smith, a legendary sportswriter, was once asked if writing a daily column was hard. "It's easy," he said, "Just sit down at a typewriter and open a vein." Must be my royal lineage.

Bob

 

[sba55]

All the above considered, I'd also think about your mission. Do you fly X/C a lot? Is that the reason you got your PPC? Or do you mostly fly small distances to other places in SoCal?

If your mission is mostly X/C, then you might find yourself becoming frustrated without the IFR rating. My flights are mostly long distance. Right after getting my PPC, I started taking fairly long trips. On almost every one of them, I felt rather frustrated that I couldn't really predict when I could fly. Eventually, I ended up being stuck in Buffalo, NY for 2 days due to TS and low ceilings, and I got my IFR rating a few months after that.

If you're in SoCal, weather is less of an issue, but there are other considerations as well. Flying IFR in complex airspace is a LOT easier than flying VFR. I don't even fly in the LA area VFR anymore because it's just too much work (flipping charts, making sure you're not busting class B, etc.).

If you're thinking that your mission will call for X/C a lot, then get the IFR rating now. It makes it a lot easier and a lot less frustrating.

-Felix

 

[KennyFlys]

Red Smith, a legendary sportswriter, was once asked if writing a daily column was hard. "It's easy," he said, "Just sit down at a typewriter and open a vein." Must be my royal lineage.

Bob

Very good!

 

[dmccormack]

If you're in SoCal, weather is less of an issue, but there are other considerations as well. Flying IFR in complex airspace is a LOT easier than flying VFR. I don't even fly in the LA area VFR anymore because it's just too much work (flipping charts, making sure you're not busting class B, etc.).

Agreed. I won't go near DC VFR -- too much work!

 

[Larryo]

Just finished PPC, and some have told me to wait a bit before going after IR. Why? ......

Active,

Ron has some good ideas... if you jump into a full time accelerated program, there's an argument to get the numbers nailed down in your plane first.

However, I prefer the 2 to 3 times per week, jump in right away, and it won't make much difference is buying your new plane as you'll take time to learn it both VFR and IFR. You won't have the dire need for the IR rating in southern Calif, so enjoy it.

With the IFR rating today, it's pretty much a numbers game (as far as the flying goes), and fortunately you can do a ton of it in the sim to nail down procedures and technique.

 

[ActiveAir]

All the above considered, I'd also think about your mission. Do you fly X/C a lot? Is that the reason you got your PPC? Or do you mostly fly small distances to other places in SoCal?

If your mission is mostly X/C, then you might find yourself becoming frustrated without the IFR rating. My flights are mostly long distance. Right after getting my PPC, I started taking fairly long trips. On almost every one of them, I felt rather frustrated that I couldn't really predict when I could fly. Eventually, I ended up being stuck in Buffalo, NY for 2 days due to TS and low ceilings, and I got my IFR rating a few months after that.

If you're in SoCal, weather is less of an issue, but there are other considerations as well. Flying IFR in complex airspace is a LOT easier than flying VFR. I don't even fly in the LA area VFR anymore because it's just too much work (flipping charts, making sure you're not busting class B, etc.).

If you're thinking that your mission will call for X/C a lot, then get the IFR rating now. It makes it a lot easier and a lot less frustrating.

-Felix

Great points. Not a lot of IMC in So Cal, but I'd rather be over prepared, than under. Hoping to do more than just So Cal. I need to et one of those color-in maps....

I waited before starting the IR. I mean it took me almost 8 yrs. and 23 CFI's later to obtain my private, so I was going to enjoy it.

Wow! That is some persistence. Glad you finally got it done.

I'm in this category having just gotten checked out in a Lance. And I've been thinking along the same lines. My challenge has been setting some goals as far as what is meant by 'proficient'. Here are some thoughts, I'd welcome more:
1) Basic S&L flight -- able to hold altitude and heading (interestingly for me, I've found that this is not as much of a no-brainer as in a 172)
2) Climbs/descents -- able to initiate, maintain and complete climbs and descents with good technique (appropriate power settings, at right altitudes). Also know power settings/config for 500 and 700 fpm descents for prec/no prec approaches
3) Turns -- able to make 1/2 standard through steep turns smoothly, on altitude and heading
4) Nav equipment -- Know it all and how it works
5) Auto pilot -- Part of me doesn't want to touch it until after the IR, but it probably makes sense to work it into the training at some point. So I should get familiar with it.
6) Engine monitor -- while not critical for IR, its new and I need to know it better

Thanks,
Sam

Good points to work towards.

Active,

Ron has some good ideas... if you jump into a full time accelerated program, there's an argument to get the numbers nailed down in your plane first.

However, I prefer the 2 to 3 times per week, jump in right away, and it won't make much difference is buying your new plane as you'll take time to learn it both VFR and IFR. You won't have the dire need for the IR rating in southern Calif, so enjoy it.

With the IFR rating today, it's pretty much a numbers game (as far as the flying goes), and fortunately you can do a ton of it in the sim to nail down procedures and technique.

Thanks for the input. I think this will be my approach. Ordered the King Everything IFR, today. No need to hurry, but will get it done once I start it.

 

[Henning]

Just finished PPC, and some have told me to wait a bit before going after IR. Why? I know I'll need 50 hrs. x-country (plus other min. reqs.). If I buy into the Comanche, I will also need complex and hi pro. Any thoughts on why to wait? Time and resources are not an issue.

Go do a weekend Instrument Written course somewhere this weekend and get that out of the way, done. Buy into the Comanche and and literally tour the country in a week or 4 day weekend. A lap around the country is a great way to get your 50hrs of cross country, and those long cruise legs will geve you time to really get the plane figured out and trimmed out. You can also fly instrument proceedures under Flight Following, just tell them what you're up to and you'd like to fly the approach, they're pretty much all good with it and you'll learn a lot that'll help you with your IR. It's also a beautiful time of the year to take the trip, your call on whether to take the wife or not. If she's a "road tripper", rock on and take her and consider yourself lucky. If she's not comfortable with long stretches in the seat, probably not a good trip to break her in to GA travel with. BTW, unless she is well seasoned in aircraft, NEVER do an aircraft check out with her in the plane (nor any other friend/passenger) because you may be required to do things that may scare them.

I did this trip with an Arrow a couple of days after I got my PPL to visit friends around the country. You can also take along the CFII and do all your instrument training in the same trip. There's nothing I can think of that prevents you from doing all the learning and tasks while on cross countries. My instructor ran me all over between Central California and the border shooting approaches everywhere. His basis was, "This is what you're going to be doing, might as well learn in it". Luckily, January in California provides a lot of opportunity for IMC as well. Back then though, there was a 125hr minimum for an IR, so I took my trip solo for the most part except when I'd give friends rides. I was also looking at twins to buy on the trip.

You can have your IR in 2 weeks if you want. You might also check with your partner if he wants to make the trip with you, it might help with the insurance if you can apply to add on with 50 hours "in airframe" and having attained your endorsements in it.

 

[ActiveAir]

Go do a weekend Instrument Written course somewhere this weekend and get that out of the way, done. Buy into the Comanche and and literally tour the country in a week or 4 day weekend. A lap around the country is a great way to get your 50hrs of cross country, and those long cruise legs will geve you time to really get the plane figured out and trimmed out. You can also fly instrument proceedures under Flight Following, just tell them what you're up to and you'd like to fly the approach, they're pretty much all good with it and you'll learn a lot that'll help you with your IR. It's also a beautiful time of the year to take the trip, your call on whether to take the wife or not. If she's a "road tripper", rock on and take her and consider yourself lucky. If she's not comfortable with long stretches in the seat, probably not a good trip to break her in to GA travel with. BTW, unless she is well seasoned in aircraft, NEVER do an aircraft check out with her in the plane (nor any other friend/passenger) because you may be required to do things that may scare them.

I did this trip with an Arrow a couple of days after I got my PPL to visit friends around the country. You can also take along the CFII and do all your instrument training in the same trip. There's nothing I can think of that prevents you from doing all the learning and tasks while on cross countries. My instructor ran me all over between Central California and the border shooting approaches everywhere. His basis was, "This is what you're going to be doing, might as well learn in it". Luckily, January in California provides a lot of opportunity for IMC as well. Back then though, there was a 125hr minimum for an IR, so I took my trip solo for the most part except when I'd give friends rides. I was also looking at twins to buy on the trip.

You can have your IR in 2 weeks if you want. You might also check with your partner if he wants to make the trip with you, it might help with the insurance if you can apply to add on with 50 hours "in airframe" and having attained your endorsements in it.

Sounds like a sweet way to get it all done. Wifey would be out (too much, too soon). Gotta find a CFII that I like, and the partner thing might be doable. It's probably more aggressive than I will end up doing things. I may try to incorp. some of it, though. Thanks! B)

 

[gprellwitz]

Go do a weekend Instrument Written course somewhere this weekend and get that out of the way, done. Buy into the Comanche and and literally tour the country in a week or 4 day weekend. A lap around the country is a great way to get your 50hrs of cross country, and those long cruise legs will geve you time to really get the plane figured out and trimmed out. You can also fly instrument proceedures under Flight Following, just tell them what you're up to and you'd like to fly the approach, they're pretty much all good with it and you'll learn a lot that'll help you with your IR.

I disagree on this. Don't try shooting approaches, even with just flight following, until you've practiced them with an instructor. There's a lot more to it than just the book knowledge, and you don't want to have to unlearn a lot of bad habits. Same advice goes for practicing them on Flight Sim, but that's another thread.

It's also a beautiful time of the year to take the trip, your call on whether to take the wife or not. If she's a "road tripper", rock on and take her and consider yourself lucky. If she's not comfortable with long stretches in the seat, probably not a good trip to break her in to GA travel with. BTW, unless she is well seasoned in aircraft, NEVER do an aircraft check out with her in the plane (nor any other friend/passenger) because you may be required to do things that may scare them.

Very true!

I did this trip with an Arrow a couple of days after I got my PPL to visit friends around the country. You can also take along the CFII and do all your instrument training in the same trip. There's nothing I can think of that prevents you from doing all the learning and tasks while on cross countries. My instructor ran me all over between Central California and the border shooting approaches everywhere. His basis was, "This is what you're going to be doing, might as well learn in it". Luckily, January in California provides a lot of opportunity for IMC as well. Back then though, there was a 125hr minimum for an IR, so I took my trip solo for the most part except when I'd give friends rides. I was also looking at twins to buy on the trip.

You can have your IR in 2 weeks if you want. You might also check with your partner if he wants to make the trip with you, it might help with the insurance if you can apply to add on with 50 hours "in airframe" and having attained your endorsements in it.

Now THAT'S a great idea. You can get the instruction, get all the XC out of the way, and get to truly experience both the system and, likely, real IMC. It'll be intensive, but very worthwhile! 2 weeks might be pushing it; that's comparable to PIC's 10-day course, but you could certainly get large portions done in that period without killing yourself. You'd want the trip to be almost as much about having fun as doing the training, but do work out some sort of a (flexible) syllabus with the instructor ahead of time.

 

[silver-eagle]

What Henning said. There are even companies that specialize in it. EX: Russell Aviation. And as I recall, there's a member who did this (BEN) and kept us all updated (this might have been done on AOPA's forum).
Doing it in a plane you're familiar with helps you out by not having to learn the nuances of the plane or equipment.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron has some good ideas... if you jump into a full time accelerated program, there's an argument to get the numbers nailed down in your plane first.

That's fine if you get the right numbers, but unless you really understand the concept (thoroughly explained in Peter Dogan's Instrument Flight Training Manual), you could be teaching yourself something you'll have to un/relearn when you start training. The PIC curriculum calls for discussing it on the first morning, and then getting those numbers the first afternoon. The same goes for trying to teach yourself approaches, or holding, or any other IFR task -- learn first, then practice, and learning these involves an instructor.

 

[dmccormack]

That's fine if you get the right numbers, but unless you really understand the concept (thoroughly explained in Peter Dogan's Instrument Flight Training Manual), you could be teaching yourself something you'll have to un/relearn when you start training. The PIC curriculum calls for discussing it on the first morning, and then getting those numbers the first afternoon. The same goes for trying to teach yourself approaches, or holding, or any other IFR task -- learn first, then practice, and learning these involves an instructor.

"A self-taught man usually has a poor teacher and a worse student."
Henny Youngman

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Just finished PPC, and some have told me to wait a bit before going after IR. Why? I know I'll need 50 hrs. x-country (plus other min. reqs.). If I buy into the Comanche, I will also need complex and hi pro. Any thoughts on why to wait? Time and resources are not an issue.

When I got done I was in "hammer down the ratings" mode and started right in on my IR. Then I stopped. After flying VFR for a while, I started again.

Part of the reason for flying VFR on your own for a while is to just build up some real-world experience and be forced to make your own decisions without the safety net in the right seat. In other words, really learn to be the PIC. That will help with your IR.

While it is technically possible to do your entire 50 hours of XC PIC under the hood during your instrument training with an instructor in the right seat, I believe that the true intent of that rule is to kick you out of the nest for a while.

IMHO, you should get into the Comanche, get your HP and Complex endorsements in it as part of the time you'll need to fly off for the insurance company, and then just fly it for a while and really get to know that airplane. Then, do your IR in it. There's already one heckuva lot of difficult stuff to learn to get the IR, so there's no need to make it more difficult by doing it in an airplane that you don't know inside and out.

By the way, there's no reason to NOT do some IR training as well, but make sure you're getting out on your own VFR at the same time. Since training flights 2-3 times a week is the best way to do it without having to knock the rust off, you'd be doing a LOT of flying. Maybe 2 instrument lessons and 2 VFR XC's each week - If you can't handle flying that much, save the IR for a bit later. Heck, you just got your PP-ASEL, go ENJOY it!

 

[ActiveAir]

"A self-taught man usually has a poor teacher and a worse student."
Henny Youngman

I can see the truth in that.

When I got done I was in "hammer down the ratings" mode and started right in on my IR. Then I stopped. After flying VFR for a while, I started again.

Part of the reason for flying VFR on your own for a while is to just build up some real-world experience and be forced to make your own decisions without the safety net in the right seat. In other words, really learn to be the PIC. That will help with your IR.

While it is technically possible to do your entire 50 hours of XC PIC under the hood during your instrument training with an instructor in the right seat, I believe that the true intent of that rule is to kick you out of the nest for a while.

IMHO, you should get into the Comanche, get your HP and Complex endorsements in it as part of the time you'll need to fly off for the insurance company, and then just fly it for a while and really get to know that airplane. Then, do your IR in it. There's already one heckuva lot of difficult stuff to learn to get the IR, so there's no need to make it more difficult by doing it in an airplane that you don't know inside and out.

By the way, there's no reason to NOT do some IR training as well, but make sure you're getting out on your own VFR at the same time. Since training flights 2-3 times a week is the best way to do it without having to knock the rust off, you'd be doing a LOT of flying. Maybe 2 instrument lessons and 2 VFR XC's each week - If you can't handle flying that much, save the IR for a bit later. Heck, you just got your PP-ASEL, go ENJOY it!

Great thoughts, thanks. I think I'm going first going to get complex in an Arrow, then the high pro in the Comanche (if the deal flies), and then work into IFR after time in the Comanche. I'm in no hurry for the IR, and do need to rack time for ins. purposes.

 

[Bill]

Just finished PPC, and some have told me to wait a bit before going after IR. Why? I know I'll need 50 hrs. x-country (plus other min. reqs.). If I buy into the Comanche, I will also need complex and hi pro. Any thoughts on why to wait? Time and resources are not an issue.

After I did PPL, I *treated* myself to an intro aerobatics course, then pretty much flew off my 50 hrs. At about 65hrs, I had an, uh, adventure coming home from Gastons three years ago, and began my IR training that very week.

 

[gprellwitz]

After I did PPL, I *treated* myself to an intro aerobatics course, then pretty much flew off my 50 hrs. At about 65hrs, I had an, uh, adventure coming home from Gastons three years ago, and began my IR training that very week.

I wonder how many on this board started (or made isgnificant headway) in obtaining their IR soon after Gastons?

 

[Henning]

Now THAT'S a great idea. You can get the instruction, get all the XC out of the way, and get to truly experience both the system and, likely, real IMC. It'll be intensive, but very worthwhile! 2 weeks might be pushing it; that's comparable to PIC's 10-day course, but you could certainly get large portions done in that period without killing yourself. You'd want the trip to be almost as much about having fun as doing the training, but do work out some sort of a (flexible) syllabus with the instructor ahead of time.

I did my entire instrument rating, written and all between two Fridays and Satan was my CFII.

I didn't really mean for him to fly the approaches, rather fly their navigational guidance mostly just to get a feel for tuning and twisting. I did my IR with a single KX-170B. Climbed in for my checkride, the DE looked at the panel and said, "You got balls..."

 

[Henning]

Sounds like a sweet way to get it all done. Wifey would be out (too much, too soon). Gotta find a CFII that I like, and the partner thing might be doable. It's probably more aggressive than I will end up doing things. I may try to incorp. some of it, though. Thanks! B)

Yeah, I would say any question at all leave the wife at home, or have her meet you via airliner along the way and fly a day with you and fly home. It'll make it an "interesting and romantic" association with flying. It's really a lot of fun crossing the country down low seeing the sights, so it really is most fun VFR looking out the windows.