Just feel like venting

O

old cfi

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Old CFI
I quit instructing in the early 90's. My choice. I relocated 1,000 miles and went back into another business I did earlier in my life. Never kept up with aviation from then until this year. To say I was amazed at the changes doesn't quite cover it. Can't believe the PPL requirements, the CFI & 3rd class medical pairing, XC requirements and the arrogance the DPE's have acquired over the years along with their ridiculous rates. Back in my time, the student NEVER received any XC planning ahead of their scheduled check ride (at least not with the DEP's I used). The FAA's ambiguous flight requirements leaves the door open for instructors and flight schools to convince the unknowing student he needs 30-35 hrs dual to meet minimum requirements which is false. The system is badly broken. I had a student pilot tell me just the other day he learned more in his 1.1 solo XC than he did in 30 hrs. dual. 20 hrs. solo should be required and should be so stated in the PPL requirements. Also believe they ought to go back to the solo XC required for PPL to be 10 hrs. with 1 XC being 300 nm with landings at 3 airports 100 nm apart. Want to learn about XC, try that one.

The medical issues have gotten way out of hand. Now it seems that if you have a cold you need to have more tests done to prove whatever it is they want you to prove. Third class medicals were always a joke anyway. Use to be if you walked in, BP was almost normal, lungs were clear, eye test proved you weren't blind, you walked out with your medical. Now, well we really don't even need to go into that one, do we. But medicals work, right! Keeps medical problems out of the cockpit. Tell that to Captain Johnston's family in Utah. He had a First Class medical but still managed to have a massive coronary in the cockpit. And there have been 8 more in the last 10 years. And that's with a First Class!

Remember, this is a country of free speech and I just made mine. Banter away!;):mad2:
 
Yup. Sounds about right.

I thought the 300nm was always a number used for CPL students. Ether way a good XC teaches you tons.


Only thing I'd differ on is the XC planning for the checkride, are you saying the student should plan it infront of the DPE? Nothing really that wrong with the idea, it's just not very real world, seems most PPL folks plan a few days out.
 
James331 said:
I thought the 300nm was always a number used for CPL students. Ether way a good XC teaches you tons.
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Back in the day (not sure exactly when it changed) your long private XC was a minimum of three 100-mile legs.
 
Everskyward said:
Back in the day (not sure exactly when it changed) your long private XC was a minimum of three 100-mile legs.
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Did not know that.

Another thing they should bring back for the PPL is spin training.
 
I remember the three 100-mile legs being a logistical challenge starting in Oakland since California has the ocean on one side and the Sierras on the other. The middle leg had to be well over 100 miles.
 
You hit it exactly Old. To make it more surprising, we have nav by magenta line today as well! My 7YO daughter can navigate 400 mile legs with ease. Duh. Back when I learned, I clearly recall flying to an NDB and timing off that to the airport. Not anymore! We got a magenta line home!
 
When I was a DE back in the 70s the students found out what the x-c was when they walked in the door. I gave them 45 minutes to come up with a flight log.

I much prefer the current situation, where the applicant knows the route in advance and can come in with a pre-planned route (FltPlan, etc). Makes the test more like real life. If I were still a DE I'm sure that I could still make the ride interesting.

Bob Gardner
 
Old CFI I'm in a similar situation having gone to regional in 1989, retiring in 2013 and just now getting back into being a CFI. Yep I remember the long 300 XC, a couple more ground reference maneuvers, and yes, planning the XC on your check in front of the examiner. At least where I'm instructing the 152s and 172s are VORs and ADF only.

The information available today is amazing and almost overwhelming. P of A itself a good source of info and discussion. At least the planes fly the same, maneuvers the same, airspace just a little bit different. The ground courses available via DL and DVDs, specific subject courses, iPads, availability of WX information, GPS etc is fantastic today.
 
OK since we're reminiscing about it: why, in heaven's name, does a CPL student need dual XC? How long are instructors suppose to hold their hand before they can fly for hire?

Bob -- have to disagree with you on the XC planning. With all the modern technology planning today that XC doesn't take near the time to plan as it did way back when. You actually had to have sectionals, plotter, E6B, etc. Now, you plug in your route on your Ipad or whatever and it comes out all ready for you. Not much skill in that.
Remember reading an article by Les Abend of Flying Magazine fame telling about a trip, I believe in the 777, where they had a failure and he actually had to dig the old E6B out of the flight bag and struggled to do the calculations necessary for position reports on a North Atlantic crossing.

Spin training was out when I took my PPL in '82 but my instructor did demonstrate one for me. Of course, as a CFI we had to do them. I'm kinda on the fence on it now as I do think it ought to be demonstrated but lets face it, if the student has an acute awareness of impending stall, the spin should never happen. Would really like to see more emphasis placed on under the hood unusual attitudes and full stall recovery, and tons of slow flight especially done both daytime and during the nighttime flight. For those flying in Florida or near water, have your instructor take you out on a moonless night over the ocean and try some real IFR.

And since instrument and ATP training were my niche would like to see the emphasis taken off of "currency" and placed on "proficiency." Currency can still kill you but proficiency will get you out of a lot of trouble. Not saying you shouldn't keep up with the approaches but here again, unusual attitudes and full stall recovery should be included in your currency regime. Just doing 6 approaches in 6 months is not going to keep you alive. Just keeps the feds happy and we all want to keep the feds happy, right. Yeah!!

One more thing -- autopilot. I never let my students use it while training. Firmly believe it's there to "assist" the pilot, not relieve them of the fun of flying. Excessive reliance on that gadget leads to sloppy piloting skills. What happens when it doesn't work or the turbulence is too great to use it? Even airlines are finding that the new aircraft with all its bells and whistles is leaving the pilot with less and less actual flying skills. Once the student was just an hour or so away from the checkride, we'd do a coupled-up approach just for training purposes. But back then, not too many flight school airplanes had autopilots so examiners usually didn't put it into play much.
 
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evapilotaz said:
I cannot believe what it cost to get a PPL these days. I got mine in 1998 flying c152 for $4300 and I think I was at 58 hours to get my PPL.
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In '82 the 152 was $33/wet and instructor was $14. I did my PPL in 41.8 and 20 hrs of that was solo!:rofl:
 
mscard88 said:
Old CFI I'm in a similar situation having gone to regional in 1989, retiring in 2013 and just now getting back into being a CFI. Yep I remember the long 300 XC, a couple more ground reference maneuvers, and yes, planning the XC on your check in front of the examiner. At least where I'm instructing the 152s and 172s are VORs and ADF only.

The information available today is amazing and almost overwhelming. P of A itself a good source of info and discussion. At least the planes fly the same, maneuvers the same, airspace just a little bit different. The ground courses available via DL and DVDs, specific subject courses, iPads, availability of WX information, GPS etc is fantastic today.
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Yep. Since I'm technology challenged its really been an interesting trip. Hard to believe we flew all over with VORs and NDBs, isn't it:yes:
 
MikeELP said:
As long as it takes. :rolleyes:
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Nope. By the time they reach 250 hrs. unless they had really bad flight instructors they should have all this nailed down by now. Local flying teaches you little. Cross country is the meat and potatoes of being a pilot. And the longer XC, the better. Why do you fly if you're staying local? Might as well drive. The education gained by going far away from your comfort zone is invaluable. Different terrain, approach controls, airports, weather all rounds you out into a better pilot. Flying VFR or IFR doesn't matter. Its something new and a challenge to cope.:yes:
 
old cfi said:
Nope. By the time they reach 250 hrs. unless they had really bad flight instructors they should have all this nailed down by now. Local flying teaches you little. Cross country is the meat and potatoes of being a pilot. And the longer XC, the better. Why do you fly if you're staying local? Might as well drive. The education gained by going far away from your comfort zone is invaluable. Different terrain, approach controls, airports, weather all rounds you out into a better pilot. Flying VFR or IFR doesn't matter. Its something new and a challenge to cope.:yes:
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Again, nailed it. My first XC was from Sandy Eggo out to El Centro. I crossed the coastal range and whoa! how do I nav now? Everything looks like alfalfa or corn. lol

I could putter around the local area for hours and understand it all, but as soon as I hit the central valley, it was like the craters of the moon. Better know what you're doing or you are toast.
 
Cute, Jim. I actually loved the aircraft and the students were great. Gosh, in watching that it reminded me of my first solo.
 
One last thought for tonight before I take to the football game -- why on earth does a CFI, CFII need to take the Ground Instructor, Advanced Ground Instructor and Instrument Ground Instructor knowledge tests in order to get those certificates? Since we can teach all that with just our CFI's, why don't we grandfather in? But guess the obvious answer: FAA! Seems like they would be good to have in case of lost medical or just interested in keeping two feet on the ground. Shouldn't need to retest.
 
The only constant in life is change. Get used to it or get left behind.

note: not to anyone in particular, I just felt it needed to be said.
 
As a student pilot I remember after I soloed and flew out of McGuire AFB (Aero Club) to a local airport for touch and wents. Well it had snowed and darn if all my ground check points were invisible (covered up) :eek:

Had a hard time finding the local airport. Thankfully the snow had melted on the runway at the local airport so I finally found it and I got my T&Gs in. Then had to find my way back to the air base but found it too. :D
 
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Everskyward said:
Back in the day (not sure exactly when it changed) your long private XC was a minimum of three 100-mile legs.
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I think I had to do that.

James331 said:
Another thing they should bring back for the PPL is spin training.
Click to expand...


I did not have to do that, but we did it anyway. Spun the hell out of both a 150 and a 172 or three.

Someone mentioned DPEs assigning specific XC stuff. My first DPE gave my CFI one airport he wanted to go to from the test location (which was not my home airport) and said to plan a 300 nm XC that included it. We flew to it and did the short and soft stuff there and then continued for another waypoint/checkpoint out the window and then he said "take me home from here".

That airport didn't have a VOR on it back then so it was cross radials on the VOR and picking a few landmarks with a line drawn by my finger to navigate back.

And then the story of the scare in his office when he reached for the pink papers and his typewriter and he thought I hadn't tuned and IDd the VORs coming back. He didn't know I knew morse code and I had to demonstrate it to him in his office. Then he put the white paper in his typewriter! Whew!!! :)
 
Zeldman said:
The only constant in life is change. Get used to it or get left behind.

note: not to anyone in particular, I just felt it needed to be said.
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Ok, change. Change isn't hard, anyone can change something. But - is the FAA making measurable improvement? To change is easy, to improve - very hard. Ferry Porsche, circa 1952.
 
bobmrg said:
When I was a DE back in the 70s the students found out what the x-c was when they walked in the door. I gave them 45 minutes to come up with a flight log.

I much prefer the current situation, where the applicant knows the route in advance and can come in with a pre-planned route (FltPlan, etc). Makes the test more like real life. If I were still a DE I'm sure that I could still make the ride interesting.

Bob Gardner
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My DPE crawled out of one airplane, walked over to mine. Climbed into the right seat and said, "plan a flight to minuteman and let's go". I stood on the ramp wth the door open, seat back folded down for a table (C-152) drew a line figured the distance, heading and time, fuel. Wrote out a flight plan form and handed it to the DPE, he said it looks good, take me there. And so the check ride started...
 
Do we even need to get into the short cuts the pilot mills (141 schools) are getting for training nowadays. the shorter ppl hours, and training just to get them out in the field as it were with a cpl ,cfi, cfii mei. Then letting them teach other ppl. And don't even get me started with the language barrier. i recently bought a aviation scanner and happened to be next to a airport with a few schools and listened to tower and ground. I heard on person and have no idea how the hell the controller understood what he was saying with his foriegn accent. My hats off to the controlers that have to deal with that.
 
bobmrg said:
When I was a DE back in the 70s the students found out what the x-c was when they walked in the door. I gave them 45 minutes to come up with a flight log.

I much prefer the current situation, where the applicant knows the route in advance and can come in with a pre-planned route (FltPlan, etc). Makes the test more like real life. If I were still a DE I'm sure that I could still make the ride interesting.

Bob Gardner
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My question is how does the DPE know if the student actually did the planning on his own or did he have help from other people. If the student can't plan his or here own flight unassisted then how can they do it , when it comes time to do it on their own. With all the new tech out there planning a flight should only take a few mins. to do in front of the DPE . JMHO
 
Crane Pilot said:
My question is how does the DPE know if the student actually did the planning on his own or did he have help from other people. If the student can't plan his or here own flight unassisted then how can they do it , when it comes time to do it on their own. With all the new tech out there planning a flight should only take a few mins. to do in front of the DPE . JMHO
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The DPE only has to ask a few questions about how the calculations are made. Its probably pretty apparent to them when someone gets it and when someone does not.
 
denverpilot said:
I did not have to do that, but we did it anyway. Spun the hell out of both a 150 and a 172 or three.
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I did too, only it was in a 150.

But despite the fact that the X-C requirements are reduced and navigation is made easy with GPS, I think getting a private has become harder; at least that is my impression from what I read on this board. So much agonizing over technical details. But I have not had a private pilot student in years, and the board may not reflect the general experience.
 
Everskyward said:
I learned in a 150.
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I learned in a 55hp Quad City Challenger, didn't stop me from crossing the Sierra.

post-6-0-00394100-1369856754.jpg
 
CharlieTango said:
I learned in a 55hp Quad City Challenger, didn't stop me from crossing the Sierra.

post-6-0-00394100-1369856754.jpg
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Your instructor had more guts than mine did if he or she signed you off. But do you even need a license for that?
 
James331 said:
Another thing they should bring back for the PPL is spin training.
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To do that you'd need airplanes you're allowed to spin and instructors willing to spin one themselves. You might be surprised at how challenging that can be in some locations.

I am more than willing to let students spin an airplane if they want to, but don't make them do it.

old cfi said:
Nope. By the time they reach 250 hrs. unless they had really bad flight instructors they should have all this nailed down by now. Local flying teaches you little. Cross country is the meat and potatoes of being a pilot. And the longer XC, the better. Why do you fly if you're staying local? Might as well drive. The education gained by going far away from your comfort zone is invaluable. Different terrain, approach controls, airports, weather all rounds you out into a better pilot. Flying VFR or IFR doesn't matter. Its something new and a challenge to cope.:yes:
Click to expand...

I agree that doing cross countries, especially longer ones, will provide a person with new challenges and make a person cope with them. I do not believe that is all there is to being a pilot however, and there are skills that can be learned locally that will never be learned by cruising straight and level for hours on end to get to a destination and make one landing, then turn around and come home. I'd honestly argue that aerobatic training, tailwheel training, spin training, and short "low n slow" cross countries using pilotage will likely produce a more well rounded pilot than one that has a bunch of cross country hours at altitude in a modern GPS equipped airplane.

Different people want to learn to fly for different reasons though. I try to tailor lessons to the kind of flying they want to do post PPL so they are proficient in those areas.

Everskyward said:
But despite the fact that the X-C requirements are reduced and navigation is made easy with GPS, I think getting a private has become harder; at least that is my impression from what I read on this board. So much agonizing over technical details. But I have not had a private pilot student in years, and the board may not reflect the general experience.
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I think the agonizing over technical details is more of a personality thing. I've run across a lot of people who really don't want to know or be hassled by the rules and the technical details, all they want to do is fly an airplane and go where they want to. I've also worked with some people who will spend hours asking questions about every little detail about a flight or what to do in a certain hypothetical situation, to the point of paralysis and fear of doing the wrong thing.

I learned to fly in the last 10 years, so I don't know what it was like before that but there definitely is the expectation that you'll know a little bit about a lot of different subjects (aircraft systems, weather, aeromedical factors, airspace, etc.). That doesn't mean that you need to be an expert at everything, you just need to know enough to keep yourself out of trouble and know where to find the right answer if you don't know. :)
 
mondtster said:
I think the agonizing over technical details is more of a personality thing. I've run across a lot of people who really don't want to know or be hassled by the rules and the technical details, all they want to do is fly an airplane and go where they want to. I've also worked with some people who will spend hours asking questions about every little detail about a flight or what to do in a certain hypothetical situation, to the point of paralysis and fear of doing the wrong thing.
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You're right. I see this even with pilots at higher levels.

The thing is, when I was learning and instructing, I wasn't exposed to that many other pilots so it was a rather new thing to read the boards and realize how other people approach things. I should be used to it by now.

I don't think the old days were any better than the new days. Just different.
 
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