Just came back from the intro flight....Disappointing results.

timwinters said:
Wow! What a bargain!

The plane and instructor rent for $192/hour and you get a half an hour for $100 (that winds up being over $120). They're working really hard to promote aviation aren't they!?!?

Go somewhere else.
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That is a good point Tim,

If we want GA to grow the newbies have to be encouraged, I could see how someone would just say: "I don't need this"
 
FloridaPilot said:
As a computer guy I'm use to sitting in one place for awhile that is why I can drive long distances without any issues. At least 1 Hour and a half is probably ideal for a first flight. It just seemed like the flight was rushed we got up flew in a few circles and came back down, (We literally flew in three circles and we were ready to come back down). Well noted on the trainer terminology. Thanks!
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Well, I'd hope you're doing more than just sitting there.

If you're in learning mode, you're going to be continuously engaged for an hour or more.

It's not at all like driving. I've done 15 hour drives before, too. My limit on the airplane is about 3 hours, though that's mostly limited by the bladder. Cessnas do have bathrooms, but they resemble soft drink containers rather closely. :) You'll never drink a lemon Snapple again.
 
Chris Mitchell said:
floridaStudentPilot, I have been following your posts as you have searched for flight schools and taken your first discover flight. It makes me cringe to hear such stories of poor professionalism, complete lack of customer service and people skills as seems to have been the case for you recently.

It looks like you live in the Tampa area and it may be too far for you but I would invite you to our flight school at KPGD (Charlotte Co Airport in Punta Gorda), Harborside Aviation. I can assure you that you won't be disappointed with our prices, our aircraft and perhaps most importantly the level of service you will get from me as your CFI. It may be well worth it to you even if it's only for a flight or two.
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Thank you Chris for the invite,

It is a bit of a hike from where I am but I will consider it!
 
JHW said:
stop playing around with computer games and listen to your instructor.
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:lol: I didn't do it intentionally it was a habit I picked up playing flight sim which is nothing like the real thing. So when flight schools tell me that their sims are 100% realistic I tend to not believe them.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, I'd hope you're doing more than just sitting there.

If you're in learning mode, you're going to be continuously engaged for an hour or more.

It's not at all like driving. I've done 15 hour drives before, too. My limit on the airplane is about 3 hours, though that's mostly limited by the bladder. Cessnas do have bathrooms, but they resemble soft drink containers rather closely. :) You'll never drink a lemon Snapple again.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Hey I'm not judging you, when you got to go, you got to go. Just don't spill it all over your co pilot :hairraise:
 
Can't say about the rate you were quoted, dunno if it was a good deal or not.

But...

Don't fret too much about the CFI. Chances are, he was just the one that happened to be available. Learning to fly takes a few things: determination and a lot of effort on your part, a good CFI fit, well maintained aircraft, and finances.

You got a taste of what it CAN be like, but it doesn't have to be that way.

The determination and effort are on you.

The good CFI fit - talk to some CFIs and explain how you learn best. Get a feel for their motivation. Get a feel for their personality and teaching style. And ask about their availability - no sense in finding a good fit only to discover you can never match your schedules.

Well maintained aircraft - It's no fun to be ready to fly, only to find out your plane is STILL waiting for that oil change. Things break, things need maintenance, that's just part of flying and you have to deal with it. When your school has four aircraft and it seems that there are always one or two down for maintenance, it can kill schedules. Ask about their up-time. Ask about availability, too. Some places are busy and you need to reserve well in advance.

Finances - make sure you can afford to finish what you start. Try not to run out of money before your check ride, and make sure to have enough left over so you can do some flying AFTER your checkride, too.

And HAVE FUN!
 
Bummer.

Does anyone train in a taildragger anymore?

I'll bet student retention would be better if everyone started out in a J-3 or Citabria. Try it OP, it's a blast....
 
Meh....Maybe just my style, but I usually don't get all over people about holding altitude on the intro flights I do. In fact, I rarely touch the controls except for when it's time to land. I use the intro flight as an opportunity to familiarize people with the general principles behind manipulating the controls, but I generally don't hold people to very specific standards on them. I commonly see other CFI's over teaching on intro flights and I can help but think that for many, the stuff being said by the CFI goes in one ear and out the other. Intro flights should be fun and simple.
 
FloridaPilot said:
You folks are great!


Thanks for the encouragement, I appreciate that!


I remember back when I learned how to Scuba. I learned with a real ego driven person and I did everything wrong and they pretty much wrote me off. There was another trainer that took me under his wing. He was very patient, (I didn't even know how to float at the time!) I worked at it hard and now I dive all the time and now I can say I'm very good at it. It just takes a while that is why I have to find someone who is patient. Baseball for me was the same way.

I'm sure the trainer was joking but I should've came back with: "Well you quoted me 69 dollars to fly a G1000 Cessna 172sp maybe I would've flown better in that plane, (The plane I flew in was made in 1981, the one I was quoted in was built in 2003)"

I'm a little discouraged but not defeated. Maybe I should take the advice. Rent an airplane, instructor and go up and fly for a few hours. Intro flights IMO are too short and should be at least 2 hours to get a feel of the airplane. I don't mind paying for the extra time.

"The CFI told me $100 for 30 mins but the cashier charged me $121. For a 1981 Cessna 172 with a G430"

I enjoyed the flight but not the trainer!

Can't wait to go up again, but this time I will concentrate outside of the cockpit next time. It will stick with me for next time!


Thanks again!
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BTW, at this point in your training you don't need a G -anything.
 
dmspilot said:
Sometimes personalities don't mesh well but that instructor sounds not so great (but he probably has an ATP :rolleyes:). The remark about not flying well because you're left handed is both inappropriate and nonsensical.

You may not need to switch schools completely because you might find a different instructor at the same school that you like better. It's good to keep your options open.
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Good advice right there!
 
paflyer said:
BTW, at this point in your training you don't need a G -anything.
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I was going to point that out also. Learn to fly in an airplane with just a navcom and a transponder. Anything else is just a distraction from actually learning how to fly an airplane. Don
 
FloridaPilot said:
No,

I was up for 30 and my trainer said 100 dollars but they charged me $121. If I would've kept the intro flight which was 69 dollars I would've gotten the same plane but for 10 mins more. I wasn't going up in the G1000 172sp plane. So for 10 mins more I got charged 52 dollars more which I didn't mind but I just wish they were more up front with pricing.
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You said he logged it in your logbook, what did he put down for the time of the flight?
 
Matthew said:
Don't fret too much about the CFI. Chances are, he was just the one that happened to be available.
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Available because he sucks as an instructor? Quite possibly.

If you go to another flight school, find out which instructors stay busiest. They're probably the best hence the reason they stay busy.
 
asechrest said:
I'll ask you again if you'd like to hop over to KPIE if my instructor is taking students at the moment? You can check out the rates here.
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I did check out Cams, that flight school was one of the first I visited. A little too expensive for my taste. Sorry! They quoted me a little over 12k
 
FloridaPilot said:
I did check out Cams, that flight school was one of the first I visited. A little too expensive for my taste. Sorry! They quoted me a little over 12k
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I'm guessing those rates are dry since they have fuel reimbursement costs at the bottom.

$130 an hour for a dry 1976 172 with no GPS? That's steep.

I can go down the road here and get a wet 1991 Archer III w/ 430 for $140 an hour.
 
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yakdriver said:
I was going to point that out also. Learn to fly in an airplane with just a navcom and a transponder. Anything else is just a distraction from actually learning how to fly an airplane. Don
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That is exactly right!


The issue here is the flying schools that I inquired about most of the fleet that they have double as rentals. Most people that rent want Garmin equipment.
 
Bonchie said:
I'm guessing those rates are dry since they have fuel reimbursement costs at the bottom.
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No they are wet rates. If you go on an x country and buy fuel, most, if not all flight schools will reimburse the fuel cost
 
FloridaPilot said:
Date, tail number, and .3 under time!
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How did you only get .3 for time if you were in the air over 30 minutes?

You can count Hobbs time. That means the moment the master switch comes on, you are getting training.
 
jordane93 said:
No they are wet rates. If you go on an x country and buy fuel, most, if not all flight schools will reimburse the fuel cost
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Oh, I see what it's saying.

Then those rates are fine then. $130 wet for a 172 is about right where I'm at as well.
 
FloridaPilot said:
I did check out Cams, that flight school was one of the first I visited. A little too expensive for my taste. Sorry! They quoted me a little over 12k
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Stop paying attention to quotes.

Here's what matters:

1) Price of the plane per hour, wet
2) Instructional rates per hour
3) Ground school costs

Every school has different philosophies on quoting. Some quote 40 hours, some quote 65 hours. But in the end none of that matters. Just the hard costs matter because how long it takes you can not be quantified in a quote.

The school in that link has decent aircraft rental rates and $50 an hour for dual instruction isn't terrible. Without doing all the math, look for around 8k if it takes you 50 hours there. Another $500 or so for ground school and materials.
 
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FloridaPilot said:
I did check out Cams, that flight school was one of the first I visited. A little too expensive for my taste. Sorry! They quoted me a little over 12k
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But...you've just taken a discovery flight at a place that charges over $60/hr for the instructor. "Quotes" for the cost of a complete PPL are dubious. Bordering on worthless. Find a good instructor, at a place you like, with good maintenance, and consider hourly cost.
 
dmspilot said:
Sometimes personalities don't mesh well but that instructor sounds not so great (but he probably has an ATP :rolleyes:). The remark about not flying well because you're left handed is both inappropriate and nonsensical.

You may not need to switch schools completely because you might find a different instructor at the same school that you like better. It's good to keep your options open.
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This is a strange comment! And it's your second negative comment in the same day regarding CFIs also holding an ATP certificate. Not sure what your point is here but in my case earning my ATP certificate (and all the 121 airline flying experience that went along with it) has made me a better general aviation flight instructor vs when I was a brand new CFI in 1990. If a guy has the personality of a rock and zero teaching skills he is going to have those characteristics with or without an ATP.
 
Bonchie said:
How did you only get .3 for time if you were in the air over 30 minutes?

You can count Hobbs time. That means the moment the master switch comes on, you are getting training.
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I have to recheck that, I don't have my log book with me at work. I will post my log book tonight on here once I get home.

20140523_201513.jpg

Two intros under my belt. (It's looking pitiful right about now but it will change)

The CFI told me we would be up for 30 mins so I expected it to be in the log book. So it was .6 not .3, (Time went by fast up there).
 
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FloridaPilot said:
...(The plane I flew in was made in 1981, the one I was quoted in was built in 2003)"...
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Don't worry about the age of the airplane. Some older ones have upgraded avionics and are better equipped than some newer ones.

Some newer models might have fuel injection instead of a carb, but they all fly the same.
 
FloridaPilot said:
I did check out Cams, that flight school was one of the first I visited. A little too expensive for my taste. Sorry! They quoted me a little over 12k
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Ignore any quote you get for the total price. They're all just guesses based on a set of assumptions. What you need to look at is the hourly cost -- how much are the planes, the instructors, and how they charge (hobbs or tach time). Might also ask how much ground time an instructor will typically charge you (most charge their time from approximately when you arrive until you leave, but a few may only charge instructional time for when they're in the plane).

There's too many places out there that come up with a quote based on ~45 hours total and a minimum of instructor time. It's not impossible, but the reality is that the time it takes you to get done is hard to predict, so hourly numbers are the better indicator.
 
Sorry,

My whole thinking going into learning how to fly was. Pay the full tuition and learn how to fly. I didn't know about the pay as you go because most flight schools would like you to pay up front, (Time value of money). So you can learn for a few hours at one school and then learn at another? As long as it's in your logbook?
 
FloridaPilot said:
Sorry,

My whole thinking going into learning how to fly was. Pay the full tuition and learn how to fly. I didn't know about the pay as you go because most flight schools would like you to pay up front, (Time value of money). So you can learn for a few hours at one school and then learn at another? As long as it's in your logbook?
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Best way to see your money disappear is to give it to a flight school up front the day before they go out of business. ;)
 
FloridaPilot said:
Sorry,

My whole thinking going into learning how to fly was. Pay the full tuition and learn how to fly. I didn't know about the pay as you go because most flight schools would like you to pay up front, (Time value of money). So you can learn for a few hours at one school and then learn at another? As long as it's in your logbook?
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What's in the logbook counts - it never expires, although you'll probably have to relearn, or rehash for a new instructor just to show that you actually did learn something from the previous place.

Pay as you go vs. pay up front:

Some places would like you to pay full in advance, that way they have your money even if they go out of business.

Many places will give you a "block discount". Basically, you buy a certain number of hours in advance (like a 10-hr block, for example) and they give you a discount. That way they only have some of your money, but you do get a little bit of a break.

Pay as you go: Usually no discounts, but no risk of losing your money either.
 
dukeblue219 said:
Ignore any quote you get for the total price. They're all just guesses based on a set of assumptions. What you need to look at is the hourly cost -- how much are the planes, the instructors, and how they charge (hobbs or tach time). Might also ask how much ground time an instructor will typically charge you (most charge their time from approximately when you arrive until you leave, but a few may only charge instructional time for when they're in the plane).

There's too many places out there that come up with a quote based on ~45 hours total and a minimum of instructor time. It's not impossible, but the reality is that the time it takes you to get done is hard to predict, so hourly numbers are the better indicator.
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Ted,

Dumb question, what exactly is Hobbs time and Tach time and what is the difference?
 
DO NOT pay up front more than you are willing to throw away. Flight schools disappearing without a trace or crashing/breaking the one airplane you can use is not unheard of.

No one knows how long it will take, as it's a complex function of your abilities, your instructor's, the airplane, airspace, weather, and circumstance. Most total cost estimates are VERY ambitious.

Hobbs time is the time the engine runs. Tach time counts prop rotations, essentially an odometer. They are about equal at cruise, but tach is quite a bit less than Hobbs in the pattern.
 
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FloridaPilot said:
Ted,

Dumb question, what exactly is Hobbs time and Tach time and what is the difference?
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Two different measurements. You can pay by the time the engine is running (Hobbs), or pay by the time according to the Tach.

It really makes no difference in the end as prices will be adjusted to get what the owners or company wants out of their plane. The only difference, IMO, is Hobbs rate encourages renters to fly full-throttle as they are paying for real-time, while Tach encourages renters to fly slower since you're paying for the engine -- which is why I don't know why more places don't do Tach, but that's a different subject.

Good advice on here regarding your training. Definitely never pay all at once, although there's nothing wrong with a small block payment as you'll usually get an hourly discount. The important thing is to pick a reasonable instructor and plane rate and make sure you can afford it at the 70+ hour range. You may do it in the 50s or in the 60s, but I believe the average is in the mid- to high-60s and you don't want to be counting pennies instead of enjoying the process and learning all you can.

Also, finding a CFI you click with, to me, is more important than cost.
 
Bonchie said:
How did you only get .3 for time if you were in the air over 30 minutes?

You can count Hobbs time. That means the moment the master switch comes on, you are getting training.
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Technically it's once the aircraft moves under it's own power. Practically speaking, most folks use Hobbs time, which is usually the time the prop is spinning.

Not sure why the OP's instructor only logged .3 time when he opted for the longer flight. I'm guessing the instructor erred.

I agree with other comments. Choose your school based on safety, the people, the location and the rates...in that order. Don't worry about quotes--noone knows how long it will take you, AND DO NOT PAY SIGNIFICANT MONEY UP FRONT. That said, some schools will give you a discount for keeping a $1,000 balance on hand, but don't do that right away. Get a feel for the operation and whever you like it before committing anything. The logbook is your propery, your time, and you can go anywhere.

I'll throw this out there too though it may be totally unrelated: Avoid any sort of Groupon type intro flight deals. The instructors hate them, they make scheduling a pain, and 98% of the folks are one and done types who are looking for something to post about on Facebook. You'll ultimately still end up only getting what you paid for and will not get the same treatment as someone who shows up with a committment to learning the art of flight.

What you really need is a mentor to sit down with you and talk through the "learning to fly" process. If I were down your way I'd be happy to do it, but I live in VA. Maybe you could find someone on here who has a little time to help.

Learning to fly is very different from getting a quote to replace your roof, buy a new car, or send a kid to college. Good luck and remember its suppose to be fun.
 
Bonchie said:
Stop paying attention to quotes.

Here's what matters:

1) Price of the plane per hour, wet
2) Instructional rates per hour
3) Ground school costs

.....
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Price is one aspect but IMHO it certainly is not the most important thing. What matters (to me, having been to many different FBO's) is the quality of instruction, aircraft availability and a less quantifiable gut feeling of whether I like the staff and facilities.
 
Price can be misleading, too.

There is one very good instructor where I train. He's knowledgeable, thorough, organized, observant, clear, and all the things you want in an instructor. Except one. He's a windbag and everything takes twice as long as it would with another instructor. His hourly price is on the high end of normal for local instructors, but that his hours take two to execute means he's actually the most expensive instructor in the area for a given task.

Because he's so thorough, I use him for one-time actions like phase checks and flight reviews. He did my practice check ride -- and it was six hours long (three ground plus three air) and covered everything. But primary training? No. I won't use him for instrument training either unless I want to spend 80+ hours doing it.

So, don't let instructor hourly prices mislead you either. A good instructor can work thoroughly and efficiently, and will be cognizant of your costs.

Basically, you're looking for (a) an instructor that teaches well, and (b) a minimal (cheap) aircraft. Find those, and that's where you go.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Price can be misleading, too.

There is one very good instructor where I train. He's knowledgeable, thorough, organized, observant, clear, and all the things you want in an instructor. Except one. He's a windbag and everything takes twice as long as it would with another instructor. His hourly price is on the high end of normal for local instructors, but that his hours take two to execute means he's actually the most expensive instructor in the area for a given task.

Because he's so thorough, I use him for one-time actions like phase checks and flight reviews. He did my practice check ride -- and it was six hours long (three ground plus three air) and covered everything. But primary training? No. I won't use him for instrument training either unless I want to spend 80+ hours doing it.

So, don't let instructor hourly prices mislead you either. A good instructor can work thoroughly and efficiently, and will be cognizant of your costs.
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Good points. Don't be shy about being up front about your expectations. But be honest with yourself about it, too. If you are the kind of person who is a perfectionist, you'll find yourself repeating tasks multiple times because you want to get them "right" or because you think you can do better. Or you might be on the other end where you want to practice or learn something until you are "good enough" and then want to move on to the next lesson. Some CFIs train one way or the other, too. You'll have to work out how you want to balance that - it will make a difference in how many hours you take and time = money.
 
timfountain said:
Price is one aspect but IMHO it certainly is not the most important thing. What matters (to me, having been to many different FBO's) is the quality of instruction, aircraft availability and a less quantifiable gut feeling of whether I like the staff and facilities.
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That is a good point! I did have that maybe I should go to another school vibe a few times.

How would you determine if the quality of the school is up to par? As a new student I wouldn't really know.

How would I know if Maintenance of the plane is up to par too? I always thought the newer the airplane the better but that is not necessarily the case.

So much to tackle at this point, but I will get it all sorted out.

I'm going to first tackle the medical first so I will know for sure that I am airworthy. Going to set an appointment with the doc right after the holiday.


Thanks!
 
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