Jump planes

Tristar said:
I fly skydivers on sundays. The typical routine is we'll take the tandems to 10,000 AGL and the experienced ones to 3 or 4,000 agl. After they're out, I'll pull the throttle back to idle, close cowl flaps and take it to the yellow line. It's something you don't typically do with passengers which means I enjoy it a ton. Thankfully most of them have brightly colored chutes. Usually I'll stay few miles to the side and spiral down trying to keep them in sight as much as possible. 9 times out of 10 I'm touching down as the skydivers are on their final 100 or so feet. I've gotten compliments on how effective that is because the next tandem load is busy watching the last ones come in but ready to go when they're down.
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That routine is exactly how my dad described it to me when I asked him what the procedure was for jumpers.
 
One very effective way to get down in a C-180, C-185, or C-182, is a steep spiral.

Trim for 100 in a 45 degree bank, increase the bank to 60 degrees with back pressure to hold the speed. If your speed gets above 100 just roll out a bit, then roll back to 60 deg when you're on speed. It's not likely you'll get to slow.

Power set at 18", cowl flaps closed. No flaps.

You can see 2,800 fpm of down with this method.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm with Tony on this one.

I don't know anything abot piston jump planes, but a buddy of mine flies Twin Otters. They'll typically go up to about 14,000 (depending on where the clouds are), drop their load, and then he'll reduce the power and do about a 4,000-5,000 fpm descent. Of course, he's also the only person I know who's had 5 PT-6s fail on him.
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PT-6s fail all the time. I've had two quit on me! And, know of several more.
 
But for Austin's original question- It kind of depends on the type of drop. If it's just a simple (is there such a thing?) DZ drop, the aircraft can descend at will.

But if the drop is a show event, generally the requirements are that the drop plane must remain on station until the jumpers are on the ground. Regular contact is kept with ATC as to the status of the jump, before, during and after. This I learned when dropping jumpers over various racetracks during opening ceremonies. Each jump requires special authorizations and they specify the particulars of the pilots responsibilities.
 
Does anyone slip? I was told full slip at Va (even above Va), and bank (60+) gets a 182 down quick and doesn't cool the engine too quick.
I'm concerned about the vertical stab, seeing as how it was never tested to do a full slip at that speed... Especially after the Airbus that went down in November 2001 from excessive rudder input *below Va!
Any thoughts on Va and doing a full slip to lose altitude?
 
Ace243 said:
I'm concerned about the vertical stab, seeing as how it was never tested to do a full slip at that speed...
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How do you know this? I haven't heard of such thing, but I will admit that it could be true.

Especially after the Airbus that went down in November 2001 from excessive rudder input *below Va!
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Keep in mind that was from multiple stop to stop inputs, IIRC. Besides, a 182 is certified to different standards.

Any thoughts on Va and doing a full slip to lose altitude?
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Frankly, until proven otherwise, I wouldn't worry about it.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
How do you know this? I haven't heard of such thing, but I will admit that it could be true.



Keep in mind that was from multiple stop to stop inputs, IIRC. Besides, a 182 is certified to different standards.



Frankly, until proven otherwise, I wouldn't worry about it.
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I believe that part 23 cert requirements dictate that a static full deflection in either direction cannot hurt the structure but don't require that things be strong enough to handle full rudder deflection when the plane is already yawed in the opposite direction.
 
Ace243 said:
Does anyone slip? I was told full slip at Va (even above Va), and bank (60+) gets a 182 down quick and doesn't cool the engine too quick.
I'm concerned about the vertical stab, seeing as how it was never tested to do a full slip at that speed... Especially after the Airbus that went down in November 2001 from excessive rudder input *below Va!
Any thoughts on Va and doing a full slip to lose altitude?
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There is some validity to this I think as certification of Va is based on a single abrupt control movement and a slip will or could use multiple full control movements. Generally I think you would be fine but at higher speeds there is some question. Here is a good article I just found that kind of goes into some more detail.
http://macsblog.com/2011/01/maneuvering-speed-and-broken-airplanes/

gismo said:
I believe that part 23 cert requirements dictate that a static full deflection in either direction cannot hurt the structure but don't require that things be strong enough to handle full rudder deflection when the plane is already yawed in the opposite direction.
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I believe you are correct.
 
in the towplanes i just put the power in the middle of the green and speed up to about 130 mph
 
flyingmoose said:
and a slip will or could use multiple full control movements.
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Wow. How do you do slips? I put the rudder input in and basically leave it there until I get the altitude I want. No multiple inputs at all, much less full control movements.
 
we used to use full slip steep turns to descend in the super cub towplane when i was in Iowa. it was fun. several glider clubs reported problems with worn crank shaft bearings likely caused by the gyroscopic forces from all the slipping.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Wow. How do you do slips? I put the rudder input in and basically leave it there until I get the altitude I want. No multiple inputs at all, much less full control movements.
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In a Cessna 120 I would run out of rudder first. In my current ride, I run out of aileron in a straight line slip.

tonycondon said:
we used to use full slip steep turns to descend in the super cub towplane when i was in Iowa. it was fun. several glider clubs reported problems with worn crank shaft bearings likely caused by the gyroscopic forces from all the slipping.
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Gyroscopic or just asymmetric loading? If you aren't turning constantly (and quickly), there shouldn't be much of a gyroscopic effect.
 
ok, probably asymmetric loading. this was just hearsay anyway. we didn't have issues with it in our club, but had heard reports from other clubs. our club tended to have a propstrike or find corrosion on the cam shaft often enough that we didn't have to worry about the crank bearings wearing out.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Wow. How do you do slips? I put the rudder input in and basically leave it there until I get the altitude I want. No multiple inputs at all, much less full control movements.
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Wow! The same way most do with opposite control inputs. If you don't use aileron to hold opposite the rudder-cool! A full rudder and aileron slip is not that uncommon! But really what I said was possible. Some people get really aggressive with aircraft. If you did it abruptly then you "could" have an issue. Nothing crazy about that statement. Maybe we are misunderstanding each other. By multiple control inputs I was referring to two different control surfaces, and not moving a control surface multiple times.
 
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I personally prefer not to aggressively stress the structure of 50 year old jump planes. You can get to the ground just as quick without wondering if you're about to rip the tail off.
 
tonycondon said:
c'mon you wear a parachute for a reason :D:D
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I always said that if something goes wrong I will be the first one out the ****ing door. Pretty much was always spring-loaded to do just that.
 
From what I understand, the Part 23 certification requires abrupt control inputs from ailerons or elevator, not rudder. So, the vertical stab and rudder have not been certified to be fully deflected at any speed. Of course there is no 'abrupt' movements; but there are full deflections in a slip descent. It helps with engine temp too.
I know it's possible because some pilots do it routinely, into the Yellow. I was theorizing that up to Va it should be fine, but after the FAA said that at any speed the rudder isn't certified for full deflections- or the vertical stabilizer, now I'm wondering if it's a bad idea, or they are just doin that to look productive, or if it only applies to large hydraulically powered flight controls...
Legalities and technicalities are what I'm concerned about. I'm sure it's safe (up to Va) in the 182, but you always must be able to explain yourself in the case of an incident. (old timers) ha!:wink2:

Any concerns with this? Or input?

Or any other methods for descending a piston quickly?
I've heard people say '5minutes' or 'yes I land as the jumpers are landing' but you gots ta say how peeps... How...
15", 2400rpm, cowl closed, 60deg bank, slip, 2000+fpm?
 
I fly the jump plane every once in awhile. 56 182 with speed brakes. Dump the jumpers at 14,500 throttle to the bottom of the green punch the speed brake button and come down like a brick at 155 mph. Buries the VSI past the 4000ft per minute. Great fun and almost always beat the jumpers down. Don
 
yakdriver said:
I fly the jump plane every once in awhile. 56 182 with speed brakes. Dump the jumpers at 14,500 throttle to the bottom of the green punch the speed brake button and come down like a brick at 155 mph. Buries the VSI past the 4000ft per minute. Great fun and almost always beat the jumpers down. Don
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That moment when you don't know whether to laugh at sarcasm :rolleyes2: or be amazed :eek: at a rare and astonishing claim of excellence... Mr. Don, I want to believe that but aaahhhhh...... Really? That's awesome. Do tell the details of these speed (air?) brakes!
 
Precise Flight speed brakes done with a field approval, Horton STOL with tip extentions so it also climbs great, Our field elevation is 4100' and it will climb very well to 12000' and gets down to a couple hundred feet min at 14,500. And yes it does drop like a brick with brakes deployed. Don
 
yakdriver said:
I fly the jump plane every once in awhile. 56 182 with speed brakes. Dump the jumpers at 14,500 throttle to the bottom of the green punch the speed brake button and come down like a brick at 155 mph. Buries the VSI past the 4000ft per minute. Great fun and almost always beat the jumpers down. Don
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A 182 *IS* a speed brake. :rofl:

A 182 with speed brakes added probably does have a worse glide ratio than the proverbial Steinway. Or your nearest local rock. Wow!
 
flyingmoose said:
Maybe we are misunderstanding each other.
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Apparently so.

By multiple control inputs I was referring to two different control surfaces, and not moving a control surface multiple times.
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I took it to mean multiple inputs on the rudder. I can't see how aileron and rudder would be a big issue, as in your definition of multiple inputs.
 
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