JetBlue recruiting pilots from zero hours now...

Pilot shortage, nope.

Pay shortage, yup.

It's sad that they would rather bind young folks to crazy training contracts than pay a proper wage for experienced ATP flight crews. Offer a wage that matches the level of training and responsibility and they would have their positions filled.

After reading this a few days ago, I'm happy to pay a extra $20 to book a ticket on Virgin or Alaska, this is a insult to the profession.
 
James331 said:
Pilot shortage, nope.

Pay shortage, yup.

It's sad that they would rather bind young folks to crazy training contracts than pay a proper wage for experienced ATP flight crews. Offer a wage that matches the level of training and responsibility and they would have their positions filled.
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I don't think this is the issue. I'm sure when their application window opens that they get more apps then pilot slots. That would indicate that pay is where it needs to be to recruit pilots. If the window was open I would apply and they would decline because I don't have the 121 time.
 
Ok now my question is how do i sign up? Has anybody seen where all the details are posted , such as how exactly its gonna work, pay, flight time, and such. All that i have read so far on this is all prospective pilots will do all the training on their own dime from PPL all the way to ATP. Im wondering if it is gonna be like an internship type program , to which im sure the prospective pilots will get nothing but a hard time from the Jet Blue pilots. It will be interesting to follow this story for sure.
 
NJP_MAN said:
I don't think this is the issue. I'm sure when their application window opens that they get more apps then pilot slots. That would indicate that pay is where it needs to be to recruit pilots. If the window was open I would apply and they would decline because I don't have the 121 time.
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No doubt

But when you filter the guys who logged all their hours on MS flight sim and don't even have a pilots license, the ones with a fresh CPL and only 250hrs, the ones with felonies, etc, you let like one guy.. and he's probably "that guy" who no one wants to work with.

I know quite a few ATPs would work for them if the pay matched the job.
 
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James331 said:
I know quite a few ATPs would work for them if the pay matched the job.
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Really ? They're pretty freaking short sighted then. second year pay as a first officer on the 320 is about 75 grand a year. 3rd year pay just about a 100 grand. What are they holding out for ? A silver platter ?
 
Two dozen pilots doesn't seem like much. I guess this first round is just to test the market.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Really ? They're pretty freaking short sighted then. second year pay as a first officer on the 320 is about 75 grand a year. 3rd year pay just about a 100 grand. What are they holding out for ? A silver platter ?
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75k should be first year FO pay, besides I think your pay scale is a wee bit off
 
James331 said:
I know quite a few ATPs would work for them if the pay matched the job.
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Go to any regional in the country I bet you could find 50 pilots at each one willing to start with JB tomorrow. Sure they won't have any 121 PIC but neither do the guys that are going to start in the Ab initio program. There is something else in play here. There are plenty of pilots that would go work there.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Go to any regional in the country I bet you could find 50 pilots at each one willing to start with JB tomorrow. Sure they won't have any 121 PIC but neither do the guys that are going to start in the Ab initio program. There is something else in play here. There are plenty of pilots that would go work there.
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Why wouldn't at least some of them have 121 PIC? Most of the regionals are 121...

Maybe JB is looking at the future. Or they want to have people trained from the beginning to their methods.
 
They had over 3,000 applications in the last application window. There isn't a shortage.
 
ktup-flyer said:
They had over 3,000 applications in the last application window. There isn't a shortage.
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If there really was a shortage the smart thing to do would be to invite people like me with 770 hours with career aspirations to apply and then put some money into us to get us qualified sooner than a zero time person.

Unless of course they know that we know how bad the pay will be and know we may not take the bait.

David
 
flhrci said:
Unless of course they know that we know how bad the pay will be and know we may not take the bait.

David
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The pay is just fine. If they got 3000 application then the pay is pretty good. I know you are aware that regional airlines still pay as little as $24k and people are still applying to them.
 
NJP_MAN said:
The pay is just fine. If they got 3000 application then the pay is pretty good. I know you are aware that regional airlines still pay as little as $24k and people are still applying to them.
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Because Shiny Jet syndrome.
 
Everskyward said:
Why wouldn't at least some of them have 121 PIC? Most of the regionals are 121...

Maybe JB is looking at the future. Or they want to have people trained from the beginning to their methods.
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That's how I see it. There are lots of 121 Captains that would head to JetBlue in a heartbeat. There's a shortage at the regional level, but certainly not one at the LCCs yet. But that shortage is probably coming, and perhaps JetBlue is just trying to get ahead of it.
 
This is just Comair Academy with the job interview at the beginning , wonder if they will payroll deduct training cost once they are online ?

United was within an inch of a similar program last year but backed out when 0 Regionals would sign the agreement , along with a few other key dissenting management members . It would have made a "flow" from student to regional to United. Historically these programs rarely live up to expectations .

The market forces will settle all of this in the end .
 
ktup-flyer said:
indentured servitude
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Doesn't have to be.

Lufthansa recruits pilots from zero hours, trains them, and starts them as FO on an Airbus 320. I know one who started that way a few years ago -- he had to pay for the training up to nearly the end (although the airline might have subsidized it, he was paying). I think that approach allows the new pilot to quit or walk away.

I think JetBlue is looking for something like these models used in other countries. I'm not sure how well it will work, because in other countries a young pilot can't easily switch from one company to another because there aren't very many, unlike the US.
 
I think that Jet Blue is just trying to mitigate the likely scenario that most pilots in the pipeline will head to a legacy if they can. In other words they know the honey pot will be had quickly when the retirements in mass happen. This is just a small test program with a much larger one ready behind it.
 
I read (Flying? Martha Lunken?) a while back that some European FOs take the seat with 60 PIC hours and 12 or so real landings. Probably pretty good FMS operators. I guess as long as nothing real radical comes up, and the Captain can fly, no harm done.
 
Hey, it worked for Germanwings, so why not? ;)
 
This article requires a subscription to read, but based on the visible opening paragraph, it sounds like the purpose of JetBlue's program may be to convince regulators that the current 1500 hour requirement is not needed.

"JetBlue Airways Corp. has devised a new, in-house pilot-training program for students who have no previous flying experience, seeking to demonstrate to regulators that novices can attain proficiency more quickly than current rules allow, according to people familiar with the details."​

http://www.wsj.com/articles/jetblue...es-with-new-pilot-training-program-1448576165
 
Palmpilot said:
This article requires a subscription to read, but based on the visible opening paragraph, it sounds like the purpose of JetBlue's program may be to convince regulators that the current 1500 hour requirement is not needed.

"JetBlue Airways Corp. has devised a new, in-house pilot-training program for students who have no previous flying experience, seeking to demonstrate to regulators that novices can attain proficiency more quickly than current rules allow, according to people familiar with the details."​

http://www.wsj.com/articles/jetblue...es-with-new-pilot-training-program-1448576165
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Google the URL and you can read it without a subscription.
 
James331 said:
75k should be first year FO pay, besides I think your pay scale is a wee bit off
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Well it ain't but as you can see it gets up there pretty quickly. What exactly are all of these alleged ATP holdouts doing now - managing hedge funds ?
 
NoHeat said:
Doesn't have to be.

Lufthansa recruits pilots from zero hours, trains them, and starts them as FO on an Airbus 320. I know one who started that way a few years ago -- he had to pay for the training up to nearly the end (although the airline might have subsidized it, he was paying). I think that approach allows the new pilot to quit or walk away.

I think JetBlue is looking for something like these models used in other countries. I'm not sure how well it will work, because in other countries a young pilot can't easily switch from one company to another because there aren't very many, unlike the US.
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EK does the same thing. Any ATP here could get a job over there on a widebody, but there's no way in hell I'd do it.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Well it ain't but as you can see it gets up there pretty quickly. What exactly are all of these alleged ATP holdouts doing now - managing hedge funds ?
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Owning their own air ambulance company and making more than any senior 121 captain..?? :wink2:

Actually I know many ATPs that just do not want to go into an airline for some reason or another. Pay is just not the real reason. Some just do not like the life style, some like the challenge of single pilot IFR, some just want to be close to home. For some people flying 121 is just not their ultimate goal while for others it is. Nothing wrong either way.

Some are like myself and realize there are different ways to make money flying without going into the 121 world. While I enjoy flying, I also enjoy the challenge of operating the business. But as our business plan goes, I am out of our planes right now.

It is all about personal choices.
 
Wait until the fences come down (open skies, cabotage, pick your platitude) then watch this job turn into an anachronism.

To be fair, this isn't a jab at just the airlines, medical doctors can have a similar fate if med schools would flood the plains. They just don't, in order to keep salaries high. Turns out med students don't consider 75K/yr (what most dreamers on here would be more than willing to fly an A320 for a living for) worth the time, expense and income loss of training. So this dynamic is not new.
 
dmspilot said:
Google the URL and you can read it without a subscription.
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Thanks for the tip!

Looks like other airlines are working to get the hours requirements down too:

"U.S. regional airlines seek to persuade regulators to ease experience requirements for hiring many future co-pilots, while proposing to significantly enhance training and supervision once the aviators start flying passengers."​

http://www.wsj.com/articles/regiona...edminimum-pilot-experience-mandate-1449005336
 
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hindsight2020 said:
Turns out med students don't consider 75K/yr (what most dreamers on here would be more than willing to fly an A320 for a living for) worth the time, expense and income loss of training. So this dynamic is not new.
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To be fair, nobody is going to JetBlue because of the $75K. They tolerate that pay because they'll spend the bulk of their career earning north of $200K. When I got hired at my current airline, first year pay was $40/hr. I was a well experienced ATP with thousands of hours of turbojet PIC from all over the world. Do you honestly think I took the $40/hr because I had shiny jet syndrome like some zit faced thousand hour CFI? No - I was hoping the contracts would get better (they did), and meanwhile I'd move up the pay scale. I was looking at where I'd (hopefully) be 10 years from now. There are lots of guys with tons of experience going to JetBlue right now for the same reasons.

Now like I said before, the stream of well qualified guys might very well dry up for the LCCs and eventually the legacies, but it hasn't happened yet. Perhaps JetBlue is just trying to get ahead of the game.
 
Zeldman said:
Owning their own air ambulance company and making more than any senior 121 captain..?? :wink2:
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Ah Billy, we can always count on you to remind us how much money you make whenever someone mentions the airlines. :D

But yeah, I completely agree with your point. Different strokes for different folks. Not every ATP wants to do 121. I honestly didn't, but sort of fell into it, and discovered that I liked it.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Wait until the fences come down (open skies, cabotage, pick your platitude) then watch this job turn into an anachronism.

To be fair, this isn't a jab at just the airlines, medical doctors can have a similar fate if med schools would flood the plains. They just don't, in order to keep salaries high. Turns out med students don't consider 75K/yr (what most dreamers on here would be more than willing to fly an A320 for a living for) worth the time, expense and income loss of training. So this dynamic is not new.
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But that is just looking short term. If you think of all the income you'll make second, third, fourth year etc I think it's a pretty good deal
 
Art VanDelay said:
Well it ain't but as you can see it gets up there pretty quickly. What exactly are all of these alleged ATP holdouts doing now - managing hedge funds ?
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Flying in other areas where they make more and/or have a better QOL :dunno:

Believe it or not there is life outside of 121
 
Zeldman said:
Actually I know many ATPs that just do not want to go into an airline for some reason or another. Pay is just not the real reason.
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This. I never wanted to go 121 although I knew the pay would (probably) ultimately be higher. The regimentation and structure never appealed to me. There is enough regimentation in what I ended up with.
 
I would just really like to fly boxes. Boxes don't complain.
 
I don't mind (most of) the people, but you definitely do meet all kinds.

Actually the people are part of what makes it interesting, for me anyway.
 
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