Jellyfish

[gprellwitz]

But if the antibiotics themselves are causing you problems you should discontinue their use and discard the remainder.

I wondered about the "proper" way of discarding drugs, and found this.

Federal Guidelines:

• Do not flush prescription drugs down the toilet or drain unless the label or accompanying patient information specifically instucts you to do so. For information on drugs that should be flushed visit the FDA’s website.

• To dispose of prescription drugs not labeled to be flushed, you may be able to take advantage of community drug take‐back programs or other programs, such as household hazardous waste collection events, that collect drugs at a central location for proper disposal. Call your city or county government’s household trash and recycling service and ask if a drug take‐back program is available in your community.

• If a drug take‐back or collection program is not available:

1. Take your prescription drugs out of their original containers.
2. Mix drugs with an undesirable substance, such as cat litter or used coffee grounds.
3. Put the mixture into a disposable container with a lid, such as an empty margarine tub, or into a sealable bag.
4. Conceal or remove any personal information, including Rx number, on the empty containers by covering it with black permanent marker or duct tape, or by scratching it off.
5. Place the sealed container with the mixture, and the empty drug containers, in the trash.

Office of National Drug Control Policy October 2009
Proper Disposal of Prescription Drugs
Office of National Drug Control Policy
750 17th St. N.W., Washington, D.C. 20503
p (202) 395‐ 6618 f (202) 395‐6730
www.WhiteHouseDrugPolicy.gov

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The thoughts behind "take the full course of antibiotics" are in error in my opinion. Once a bacteria is resistant it's resistant, more antibiotic won't kill it. If the symptoms are abated, and the drug itself is causing discomfort, you should abandon it. If there are resistant bacteria in your body, more antibiotic won't kill them, they're resistant.

I think we will disagree with this one.

As the antibiotics are administered, the ones with no resistance will die off first. As there are several methods that bacteria can become resistant (change in drug permiability, change in metabolic pathway, drug inactivation, or simply pumping the drug back out of the bacterium), not all strategies for drug resistance are equally effective. The bacteria with the ineffective drug resistance die later during the course of medication. There may well be some bacteria with effective resistance, but we hope to get the numbers so low that they are are unable to colonize well, and that the body's defenses can handle the few bacteria that are left.

If we were dealing with a petri dish with antibiotics, we would have a resistant strain. Since the body is (unless immunocompromised- that is another issue) also destroying the bacteria the very few resistant bacteria left from a properly administered course of medication will generally be destroyed. As for the numbers question, A single (or few) bacteria are generally not enough to colonize a body. When we grew fermentation, we had to go through several fermentations of increasing volume to make enough innoculum for a 100 liter batch. Just putting a drop of whatever we wanted to grow up into the 100 liter fermenter would not guarantee any growth.

By stopping the antibiotics early, there are enough bacteria present to recolonize, and too much for the body to clean up on its own. They all have resistance to varying degrees, and they will trade DNA so the strain with the best resistance will continue to grow.

If the body wasn't helping to clean up the infection, I would agree with the statement, but the body's immune defenses are involved. The bacteria might be resistant, but the body should clear out that low number so they can't grow or colonize elsewhere.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks Steingar.

Symptoms are abated - but how can I tell if every last bugger is dead? IE if I stop some form of abx, will the 10 cells lurking blossom?

<SNIP>

If you only have 10 left, I'm pretty sure your body will take care of them.

 

[woodstock]

If you only have 10 left, I'm pretty sure your body will take care of them.

That was an example. No idea if there were a few, a lot, or none.

I feel mostly better today. My first doc said that she's seeing a lot of people the past few days with allergy/breathing issues due to the ****ty air quality. I am half thinking of taking one again tomorrow AM and seeing if it was the meds or the air quality. I don't like the idea of having lurkers.

I wasn't having the other symptoms I read about, and this took 5 days to develop...

That said - the redness/swelling is gone. Maybe it's gone gone.

Thanks everyone for opining on my thread. Overall, this sucks and I don't want to go through it again.

 

[steingar]

I think we will disagree with this one.

As the antibiotics are administered, the ones with no resistance will die off first. As there are several methods that bacteria can become resistant (change in drug permiability, change in metabolic pathway, drug inactivation, or simply pumping the drug back out of the bacterium), not all strategies for drug resistance are equally effective. The bacteria with the ineffective drug resistance die later during the course of medication. There may well be some bacteria with effective resistance, but we hope to get the numbers so low that they are are unable to colonize well, and that the body's defenses can handle the few bacteria that are left.

If we were dealing with a petri dish with antibiotics, we would have a resistant strain. Since the body is (unless immunocompromised- that is another issue) also destroying the bacteria the very few resistant bacteria left from a properly administered course of medication will generally be destroyed. As for the numbers question, A single (or few) bacteria are generally not enough to colonize a body. When we grew fermentation, we had to go through several fermentations of increasing volume to make enough innoculum for a 100 liter batch. Just putting a drop of whatever we wanted to grow up into the 100 liter fermenter would not guarantee any growth.

By stopping the antibiotics early, there are enough bacteria present to recolonize, and too much for the body to clean up on its own. They all have resistance to varying degrees, and they will trade DNA so the strain with the best resistance will continue to grow.

If the body wasn't helping to clean up the infection, I would agree with the statement, but the body's immune defenses are involved. The bacteria might be resistant, but the body should clear out that low number so they can't grow or colonize elsewhere.

I agree we must agree to disagree. If a bacterium is resistant to a full dose of antibiotic, it is resistant. I confess ignorance of the pharmocokinetics of ampicillin derivatives, but I doubt they require 2 weeks to reach full potency. Once they reach full potency it takes little time to affect bacteria, their life cycle is measured in minutes. Nonetheless, when dealing with a dose of antibiotic, a bacterium is resistant or not. Moreover, ampicillin derivatives are not bacteriocidal. Added to that, the human body is evolved to react to bacterial influx, and is highly sensitive to pathogenic bacteria. Most of Elizabeth's symptomology was her body's response to the bacteria, very little was due to the bacteria itself. Once asymptomatic, the immune system had effectively contained the bacteria.

I would not tell just anyone to discontinue their antibiotic treatment; taking the things are as good a method of disposal as any. But if the drug is suspected to be causing some sort of reaction, and the primary lesion appears to have abated, I say abandon the antibiotic treatment. Watching for signs of further infection in such a situation (redness, irritability in the skin etc...) is wise in such and instance. But it will be a rare instance in which the primary infection site will be quelled and secondary sites will emerge.

Given that you have two scientists each with tremendous expertise in the subject disagreeing with each other, it is probably best for every one to do what their doctor says.