Jane Fonda admits Hanoi Jane visit betrayed US Soldiers

wbarnhill said:
Her actions did not directly result in the torture of the soldiers.
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I'm afraid your statement above is just flat out wrong. Her actions DID DIRECTLY CAUSE the torture of American Prisoners of War. I strongly recommend you read some of the first person accounts written by a few guests of the Hanoi Hilton.
 
Dave,
Thanks so much for your very well written response above, and for your service. My closest experience to what you describe was SERE school in '77. I know it doesn't even come close to what was experienced in RVN, but it did lead to a lot of reading and soul searching. To all who served and especially to the family and friends of those who gave the ultimate sacrifice, I salute you.
Greg
 
Greg, Do you honestly believe that had she not visited NV, that the NVA would've just left the POWs alone? They would've just treated them perfectly fine? It was used as propaganda. And those first hand accounts you speak of corroborate this. They were told that Jane was the reason these things were happening to them, when the fact was that it would've happened to them regardless of if Jane visited or not. Unless Jane was torturing the soldiers herself, you cannot define a causal relationship between her visit and the torture of the soldiers.

Dave, I think we all hate too much. I'm not religious, but there's a specific verse in the Bible that I think bears noting:

Mat 6:14-15 (NIV) "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Hatred would indicate a lack of forgiveness.. We as humans seem compelled to seek revenge, which in our eyes would be justice. But we shouldn't let the pathos of hate blind us. It's an extremely powerful emotion, and as such we struggle with it, but we can't let something so empty control us. I am reminded of the people around me, and sadly myself included, who were calling for the heads of those responsible for 9/11. But hate gives us nothing. I only hope that everyone could realize that. It's a hard realization to come to, but it needs to occur.
 
Bill, back at that other place there was a young aviator full of **** and conviction who came on board two years ago to tell everyone else what to do. Now you, without having had the experience, are telling others what they should do. Time to stop, really.
 
gkainz said:
Dave,
Thanks so much for your very well written response above, and for your service. My closest experience to what you describe was SERE school in '77. I know it doesn't even come close to what was experienced in RVN, but it did lead to a lot of reading and soul searching. To all who served and especially to the family and friends of those who gave the ultimate sacrifice, I salute you.
Greg
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Thank you Greg. Don't downplay what you did. You served. Many of us never planned on doing what we did. We agreed to serve and during that time got deployed into a combat zone during time of war--you just didn't. But were willing if needed.

Same thing with Doc here. Did some pretty daring stuff; stuck his neck out pretty far. Luckily he came back with it (although it may be a little longer :) ).

Best,

Dave
 
All I am saying is to try to get hate out of our systems. Hate has no purpose in society. Fault me for having hope, but don't talk down to me as if I know nothing.

As far as what I have and have not experienced, you know nothing about it. You're basically saying that my statements should be outright rejected based on the fact that I was not in Vietnam. That's absolutely ridiculous, as the circumstance of my not being involved in Vietnam has no bearing on the discussion.

You can feel free to criticize my viewpoint that everyone should forgive, but don't turn it into an attack on me.
 
William,

Forgiveness may be too much to ask of those who felt the betrayal of this media figure. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is just as wrong to presume to tell Vietnam Vets how they should feel about Ms. Fonda as it is to suggest that you are not entitled to your opinion.
 
Saw the interview. Thought CBS might have considered pulling it and dedicated the show to the Pope. Two good segment of the Pope and the future of Catholicism followed by Hollywood Starlet just didn't seem appropriate.

Thought she came off a bit contrite. I actually think a bit less of her now. Rich, famous kid, all the opportunity in world, blaming her father for her life's problems. Featured next to John Paul's life she just looked like a spoiled B@&*%h.
 
wbarnhill said:
All I am saying is to try to get hate out of our systems. Hate has no purpose in society. Fault me for having hope, but don't talk down to me as if I know nothing. SNIP
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It is a pretty sentiment to think we can love everybody, sit around the campfire, and sing heartwarming songs, but it's not realistic unless a person lives a very sheltered life. In the real world, there are evil people, and evil actions. I suppose others may find room in their heart to love evil, but not I.

Quick show of hands... how many folks here think we should get the hatred for Adolf Hitler and his actions out of our systems?
 
wbarnhill said:
Greg, Do you honestly believe that had she not visited NV, that the NVA would've just left the POWs alone? They would've just treated them perfectly fine?
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Bill, I do not for one minute believe that, and I think it's rather disengenuous of you to phrase your question that way. POWs were tortured as a direct result of Jane Fonda's visit. Had she not visited, those POWs would have not received the treatment they did on that day, for that event. Everything else concerning their capture, confinement and treatment is not relevant to this discussion. I have not experienced what these POWs experienced, so I cannot speak for them. I have, however, experienced the military training that was created as a direct result of these Heros experiences, and can, in some very very small way, empathise with them.

wbarnhill said:
Unless Jane was torturing the soldiers herself, you cannot define a causal relationship between her visit and the torture of the soldiers.
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Sorry, I disagree and I think your statement exhibits seriously flawed logic. I understand that there was a direct cause and effect relationship between her visit and specific torture of POWs. A number of analysts have written that Jane Fonda's visit to Viet Nam directly contributed to prolonging the war, which directly impacted those POWs by prolonging their captivity.

wbarnhill said:
Dave, I think we all hate too much. I'm not religious, but there's a specific verse in the Bible that I think bears noting:

Mat 6:14-15 (NIV) "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Hatred would indicate a lack of forgiveness.. We as humans seem compelled to seek revenge, which in our eyes would be justice. But we shouldn't let the pathos of hate blind us. It's an extremely powerful emotion, and as such we struggle with it, but we can't let something so empty control us. I am reminded of the people around me, and sadly myself included, who were calling for the heads of those responsible for 9/11. But hate gives us nothing. I only hope that everyone could realize that. It's a hard realization to come to, but it needs to occur.
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Bill, I agree with you on this. I do not hate Jane Fonda. I personally was not affected by her visit to Viet Nam. However, that does not mean that I will not forget what she did. I know she has asked forgiveness from those people that were directly hurt by her actions, which she admits did happen. I do not judge her motivation for this and hope her apology was sincere. I hope the end result is that those POWs who were directly affected by her actions can continue to heal psychologically by her apology.

Hate and revenge are blinding motivators, however, justice is a moral stronghold that must not be sacrificed in the process. Those that cannot remember to past are condemned to repeat it.
 
wbarnhill said:
All I am saying is to try to get hate out of our systems. Hate has no purpose in society. Fault me for having hope, but don't talk down to me as if I know nothing.

As far as what I have and have not experienced, you know nothing about it. You're basically saying that my statements should be outright rejected based on the fact that I was not in Vietnam. That's absolutely ridiculous, as the circumstance of my not being involved in Vietnam has no bearing on the discussion.

You can feel free to criticize my viewpoint that everyone should forgive, but don't turn it into an attack on me.
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Hate has nothing to do with it. I don't hate anybody (well, maybe my ex-wife :) ). I don't even hate Jane Fonda.

But Fonda, by virtue of her visit to Hanoi, provided aid and comfort to an enemy of our country in time of war. That's treason, and she should have gone to jail for that. I'm not about to forgive her for that nor would I would forgive someone who visited Hitler during WWII or N. Korea during the Korean war.

We had a discussion about this at a company reunion a few years back. (We fought in III Corps near the Cambodian border in 1969-70). It seemed that we all shared the same opinion of Fonda's actions.
 
We had a discussion about this at a company reunion a few years back. (We fought in III Corps near the Cambodian border in 1969-70). It seemed that we all shared the same opinion of Fonda's actions.[/QUOTE]

Hey Bob:

Where were you. My first tour I was at two different A camps along the Cambodian border. Tra Cu was on the Four Corps border (just south west of Cu Chi (sp). Also spent time north of Tay Ninh in a camp called Thein Non neat Katum (which we referred to as Kaboom!!)

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
We had a discussion about this at a company reunion a few years back. (We fought in III Corps near the Cambodian border in 1969-70). It seemed that we all shared the same opinion of Fonda's actions.
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Hey Bob:

Where were you. My first tour I was at two different A camps along the Cambodian border. Tra Cu was on the Four Corps border (just south west of Cu Chi (sp). Also spent time north of Tay Ninh in a camp called Thein Non neat Katum (which we referred to as Kaboom!!)

Dave[/QUOTE]

Company was HQ'd at LZ Buttons (Song Be). We also worked out of LZ Mary on the other side of the Black Virgin. Mostly we were right at the border.
 
bbchien said:
Bill, back at that other place there was a young aviator full of **** and conviction who came on board two years ago to tell everyone else what to do. Now you, without having had the experience, are telling others what they should do. Time to stop, really.
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Experience can be useful but, for example, one does not need first hand experience to know full well to stay out of a tornado or to advise others to stay out of a tornado.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
We had a discussion about this at a company reunion a few years back. (We fought in III Corps near the Cambodian border in 1969-70). It seemed that we all shared the same opinion of Fonda's actions.
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I'll bet the guys had a few choice words for her and I also bet I can guess what they were.
 
Anthony said:
I'll bet the guys had a few choice words for her and I also bet I can guess what they were.
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You know what, Anthony? It was more a puzzlement about why someone would want to betray our country and troops like that. I don't think any of us understand that. Or do today...

It's good to hear from, my friend!
 
I, for one, can forgive Fonda's checkered past. Her apology struck me as being genuine and heartfelt.
 
Big Bird said:
I, for one, can forgive Fonda's checkered past. Her apology struck me as being genuine and heartfelt.
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I'm sure we have all done some things when we were kids that when we look back we aren't too proud of.

So I can understand her doing this, it was troubled times. I understand she thought she was doing something good, Later she thinks differently, and makes an apology. OK great so far, now just go away and let rest.

But Noooo she keeps stirring the pot, and now uses this as a method to sell books?

Nope it ain't working with me. Just let the B----- go away and give it a rest.
 
NC19143 said:
I'm sure we have all done some things when we were kids that when we look back we aren't too proud of...
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Except that Ms. Fonda was in her mid-30's (36 I believe) in 1972 when she went to Hanoi. Old enough to be well past the age of youthful indiscretion.

Chip
 
gibbons said:
Except that Ms. Fonda was in her mid-30's (36 I believe) in 1972 when she went to Hanoi. Old enough to be well past the age of youthful indiscretion.

Chip
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Good God she's older than me.. and she is bragging about doing a three some? (It's got to be from memory)
 
Some cats will never change their stripes and Jane is one. I believe she should be locked up for what she did to America. One man's opinion.



Simper Fi

Stache
 
Forty years seems to be an inordinate amount of time to devote to hating anyone. The Bible says if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven. And most of us have done many bad things and we need God's forgiveness. Jane became a Christian shortly before she left Ted Turner. Saint Paul authorized the brutal persecutions of Christians... but he was eventually accepted... even made a Saint. You'd think this ONE woman was responsible for our losing the war (well, we certainly didn't win it). I still cannot recall exactly why America was there in the first place. I do recall how some soldiers "took out" their own commanders. Or was that just a wild rumor? I do not condone what Ms. Fonda did at all, but I blame a lot on her youth and the chaotic times we were in. And aren't we in another war in Afghanistan that's going nowhere... other than supporting military warfare manufacturers? Maybe her actions did actually save many of our own soldiers' lives? Hmmmm I hate war far more than I could ever hate Jane Fonda. Give it a rest. Read on: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7349099/
 
Since someone revived the thread, and I wasn't here in 2005 to say it back then:

VN Vets: "Welcome Home."
 
denverpilot said:
Since someone revived the thread, and I wasn't here in 2005 to say it back then:

VN Vets: "Welcome Home."
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Oak Harbor Wa. is a small town with a high percentage of VN vets, we have a fleet reserve, a VFW, Chiefs club, and all the non military orders. all you need to do to get into a fight in any of them, is try to defend Hanoi Jane.
 
Tom-D said:
Oak Harbor Wa. is a small town with a high percentage of VN vets, we have a fleet reserve, a VFW, Chiefs club, and all the non military orders. all you need to do to get into a fight in any of them, is try to defend Hanoi Jane.
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I believe the appropriate bumper sticker is "Vietnam Vets are not Fonda Jane". And Treason is something I don't forgive. Ever.
 
Fonda told CBS she even solicited the call girls herself, using her experience from her Oscar-winning role as a prostitute in "Klute."

"Hey, if that's what he wanted, I'd give it to him in spades," she said.


Hey, I might like having a wife that thinks that way!:wink2:
 
A few years back Jane Fonda urinal stickers were popular. Even though she chose to betray our country, she still managed to enjoy the very best of what America has to offer.

Paul
N1431A
2AZ1
CWO-2 USA Ret
101st Abn Div
Purple Heart Aug 68
 
I ran into a Marine/Vietnam vet and his wife a few days ago. He was spit on at airports when he came home. How disgusting is that?

I made sure I thanked him for his service and told him he helped keep me free.

The mentality in the 60's and 70's towards the military was just horrible.
 
Anthony said:
I ran into a Marine/Vietnam vet and his wife a few days ago. He was spit on at airports when he came home. How disgusting is that?

I made sure I thanked him for his service and told him he helped keep me free.

The mentality in the 60's and 70's towards the military was just horrible.
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Agreed. One of the very, very few good things to come out of the Gulf War and 911 was a renewed respect for those in uniform, a very welcome development.

I would thank all the vets for their service, but the ones around here got to fly hot jets at supersonic speed low to the ground, and all on my nickel. Heck, they should be thanking me.
 
steingar said:
I would thank all the vets for their service, but the ones around here got to fly hot jets at supersonic speed low to the ground, and all on my nickel. Heck, they should be thanking me.
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Ha, yeah really.
 
'Couse, I've put all this behind me Paul, but just for curiosity's sake, where would one find one (or more) of those :).

I had red paint thrown at me when leaving a movie theater with my Dad when home on leave. I was called a war monger and baby killer! (Thought the fun would never end.)

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I had red paint thrown at me when leaving a movie theater with my Dad when home on leave. I was called a war monger and baby killer! (Thought the fun would never end.)
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Bastards!

Dave. Did you use the CAR-15 in RVAN? What did you prefer if you don't mind me asking?
 
Dave Siciliano said:
'Couse, I've put all this behind me Paul, but just for curiosity's sake, where would one find one (or more) of those :).

I had red paint thrown at me when leaving a movie theater with my Dad when home on leave. I was called a war monger and baby killer! (Thought the fun would never end.)

Best,

Dave
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Baby killer and 'war machine'. And that was always to my back in college. I still hate hippies.
 
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