It looks I'm going to graduate.

EdFred

EdFred

Taxi to Parking
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
30,651
Location
Michigan
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Display name:
White Chocolate
My dad has been on the hunt for a plane - and basically narrowed it down to Cherokee 180's. He's having a hard time finding the right one. We all know how that goes. So, I think I'm going to turn over the ownership reins of 2212R to my dad if he doesn't find "the right one" before I finish up with my CFI training.

Which low wing plane should I be on the prowl for to replace 2212R? I would probably not purchase until next spring/summer. I would be able to maintain currency in 12R, and I'll obviously have some more hours in it while training my dad, so I'm not in a huge rush to replace it immediately.

I do have the 2600' grass strip requirement at 6Y9 to keep in mind. (Should be 2600' by the time I am ready to purchase)

Arrow?
Mooney?
Bo?
RV?
Twinkie?
 
N2212R said:
Arrow?
Mooney?
Bo?
RV?
Twinkie?
Click to expand...

Throw the Dakota in there? Same great PA-28 taste, more filling.
 
N2212R said:
My dad has been on the hunt for a plane - and basically narrowed it down to Cherokee 180's. He's having a hard time finding the right one. We all know how that goes. So, I think I'm going to turn over the ownership reins of 2212R to my dad if he doesn't find "the right one" before I finish up with my CFI training.

Which low wing plane should I be on the prowl for to replace 2212R? I would probably not purchase until next spring/summer. I would be able to maintain currency in 12R, and I'll obviously have some more hours in it while training my dad, so I'm not in a huge rush to replace it immediately.

I do have the 2600' grass strip requirement at 6Y9 to keep in mind. (Should be 2600' by the time I am ready to purchase)

Arrow?
Mooney?
Bo?
RV?
Twinkie?
Click to expand...
affordaplane.jpg
 
N2212R said:
Mooney?
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Mooney, Mooney, Mooney... :D (Is there an echo in here?)

Twinkie?
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It would give you some peace of mind going over the lakes in the colder months... But I'd demand a ride in it. :yes:

If you do think about a twinkie, I know where there's a decent-looking one for sale cheap...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Mooney, Mooney, Mooney... :D (Is there an echo in here?)
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From what I've read, Mooney is great for occasional use on smooth grass strips, but the tanks will develop early leaks if used often for grass strip use.

Mooniacs, is this true or just more Mooney OWT?
 
How would the tanks know when their on grass??

If i believed all the stories about mooneys from non mooney owners I never wouldve bought mine.
 
Michael said:
How would the tanks know when their on grass??

If i believed all the stories about mooneys from non mooney owners I never wouldve bought mine.
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What I've read is the rough bouncing of using a Mooney on the grass often can lead to tank leaks...
 
Bill Jennings said:
What I've read is the rough bouncing of using a Mooney on the grass often can lead to tank leaks...
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I dunno Bill. I have not heard that one. I would assume flying in turbulant air would cause them to leak as well. Doesnt make much sense to me. There was an AD on the tanks years ago, so i dont think there is an issue any longer with the tanks.
 
Bos are just fine on Grass, and 2,600 should be no problem with reasonable prudence in weight and conditions.

Comanche rides lower, but should have no real issues. Some incredibly good deals among 1965 260s out there.

Arrow would be fine, no learning curve as long as you remember that wheel-shaped switch! I still don't understand why Piper never built an Arrow 235...

And talk about deals: if you hangar most of the time (do you?), why not a Bellanca Viking? Talk about a hum-dinger of a plane for the cashish!

If this one does not get much higher, it may be stael-deal, but you'd really need to ask Dr. Dave to know for sure. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-Bellanca-260-Viking-14-19-3A_W0QQitemZ190021559831QQihZ009QQcategoryZ63677QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And then there's the Mooney.:D Texan, for "Speed."
 
Jesse, clearly that's a high-wing! :D

And besides that, I think Ed would freeze his, um, nether regions, flying that thing in the winter! :eek:


-Rich
 
RV RV RV!!!

:D

I'm not biased....... well... maybe just a little bit.. ;)

-Chris
 
SCCutler said:
Bos are just fine on Grass, and 2,600 should be no problem with reasonable prudence in weight and conditions.

Comanche rides lower, but should have no real issues. Some incredibly good deals among 1965 260s out there.

Arrow would be fine, no learning curve as long as you remember that wheel-shaped switch! I still don't understand why Piper never built an Arrow 235...

And talk about deals: if you hangar most of the time (do you?), why not a Bellanca Viking? Talk about a hum-dinger of a plane for the cashish!

If this one does not get much higher, it may be stael-deal, but you'd really need to ask Dr. Dave to know for sure. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-Bellanca-260-Viking-14-19-3A_W0QQitemZ190021559831QQihZ009QQcategoryZ63677QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And then there's the Mooney.:D Texan, for "Speed."
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I don't think that that plane is a viking.
I think it is the last version of the old 14-19 the Bellanca made.

I think that the listed plane is a very very late model Cruisemaster-Senior which is much more rare than a viking, which are known as 17-30's. Late model Cruisemasters only sported the viking style single tail for a few years of production.

I wish Vic Steelhammer was still here.....sigh.
 
infotango said:
I don't think that that plane is a viking.
I think it is the last version of the old 14-19 the Bellanca made.

I think that the listed plane is a very very late model Cruisemaster-Senior which is much more rare than a viking, which are known as 17-30's. Late model Cruisemasters only sported the viking style single tail for a few years of production.
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Right on. If it wasn't built with 300 hp, it's not a Viking.

This one is a 14-19-3, marketed as "Model 260A."

Here is a link to an interesting article on the history of the Viking and its predecessors, written by a former Bellanca General Manager.

-- Pilawt
 
Ed, I think the mooney is a pretty cool plane but while several of the owners I know will fly into grass strips others would NEVER consider it. So While nothing close to an expert I would say if you have no qualms about bringing it into a grass strip its a fast fun and economic choice ( fuel wise). One thing to consider about the Mooney is your eventual trip to Alaska. What kind of fields will you land on there. Of course if one landing in Anchorage is all you will do it may not matter.

On the other hand I Really like the Bo or the Deb. I fell in love with it when Spike took me for a ride at Gastons. Good speed, Good room , good clearance , fuel hog?

I think the RV is neat but don't know how comfortable I'd feel flying a plane that someone else built.

On final thought Commander 114, Speed, Room, Clearance, Visability and good looking.
 
Michael said:
I dunno Bill. I have not heard that one. I would assume flying in turbulant air would cause them to leak as well. Doesnt make much sense to me. There was an AD on the tanks years ago, so i dont think there is an issue any longer with the tanks.
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Mike I know about that one. As the spar flexes, it stretches rivets. A repeat grass strip mooney always has ovalized holes at station 48, and the leaks start at the quadruple overlap position just ahead of the wheel well.

I've owned two of 'em through 1000 hours.

Now that EdFred has a grass strip, I will no longer say "Mooney, Mooney, Mooney". Unfortunately, a noncomplex Simple travelling bird- leaves us with Grummans, which are not great on short strip grass (with trees at the West end).

So that leaves us with Brands C or P. Because Brand C retracts are kinda fragile. for a travelling bird that gives us Brand P.

Can you say, Arrow? I would avoid the T tail for short grass, but the other ones will do JUST FINE. Can you also say, "Hardly any transition?"...except for the complex signoff!

Then, because EdFred flies mostly solo, there's the DA20C2....
 
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A funny thing happened at the airport today. I ride my motorcycle over to Allegan to fly the Arrow I am finishing up my CFI training in, and I'm doing the runup at 28, when another plane taxis up behind us and does its run up as well. I'm getting ready for the check ride, and was treating this as a mock ride, so I'm taking extra time on my instruments and such. My CFI comments about the guy doing is run up into the wind (we weren't, and you don't need to, yada yada yada) and mentions his name is Bob something. I mention the guys last name, who ends up being the guy I bought my hangar from. I tell my CFI to tell him to go ahead and that the guy he sold his hangar to is right seat.

Well, Bob asks how it's going, and how's the plane, and I quikcly mention that I have it "for now" and he quickly says "this one's for sale" as he takes the runway. His plane - Comanche 250. Hmmmmmmm.... We do our lesson, and come back, and he lands shortly after us. So I dash out to the fuel pumps and start talking with him....

Needs a panel overhaul (for my tastes) but I think this deal could work. And it even has the heavy duty nosewheel. Time to run the numbers...
 
bbchien said:
So that leaves us with Brands C or P. Because Brand C retracts are kinda fragile. for a travelling bird that gives us Brand P.

Can you say, Arrow? I would avoid the T tail for short grass, but the other ones will do JUST FINE. Can you also say, "Hardly any transition?"...except for the complex signoff!

Then, because EdFred flies mostly solo, there's the DA20C2....
Click to expand...

Hey Doc, why no brand B?

But your idea for the Diamond is great- I love those, suh-weet flying bird. One problem, though: unless I am mistaken, there is no IFR-certified DA20 built (no lightning conductors). Ed is a gauge-guy.
 
bbchien said:
Mike I know about that one. As the spar flexes, it stretches rivets. A repeat grass strip mooney always has ovalized holes at station 48, and the leaks start at the quadruple overlap position just ahead of the wheel well.
Click to expand...

Isn't there an "upgrade" to bladders available for Mooneys? You lose a bit of capacity IIRC, but that could still potentially make it a viable option.

Can you say, Arrow? I would avoid the T tail for short grass, but the other ones will do JUST FINE. Can you also say, "Hardly any transition?"...except for the complex signoff!
Click to expand...

Amen on all counts. Arrow III with the gear auto-extender removed.

Then, because EdFred flies mostly solo, there's the DA20C2....
Click to expand...
SCCutler said:
But your idea for the Diamond is great- I love those, suh-weet flying bird. One problem, though: unless I am mistaken, there is no IFR-certified DA20 built (no lightning conductors). Ed is a gauge-guy.
Click to expand...

So, you get the IFR-upgraded speed-mod DA20. It comes with two extra seats too! It's called a DA40. :D Of course, that's a major step above the others in purchase price. Lowest I've seen for a decent used one is about $170,000, though I should look again as prices are coming down with folks trading 'em in on the DA40XL and the DA42.
 
Michael said:
How would the tanks know when their on grass??

If i believed all the stories about mooneys from non mooney owners I never wouldve bought mine.
Click to expand...

because grass strips can be rougher than a cob..
 
Richard said:
Ed, Grummans are low wings.

And now, here's Anthony with the report....
Click to expand...


Roll tape......

A Grumman Tiger can do a 2,600 ft grass strip but I would want it to be relatively light. I used to be based out of a 2,700 ft, obstructed, PAVED, strip and had no problem flying out of there at gross weight in the summer. However, I would be very careful on grass as the performance numbers in the Tiger POH don't really do it justice. I would go one person and fuel to the tabs and see how it works, bit if I wanted to fly fully loaded, I would NOT pick a Tiger for this mission. Sorry, Ed, I know you really want the speed, handling, and nifty sliding canopy, but it aint no bush plane. ;)
 
Bill Jennings said:
From what I've read, Mooney is great for occasional use on smooth grass strips, but the tanks will develop early leaks if used often for grass strip use.

Mooniacs, is this true or just more Mooney OWT?
Click to expand...

OWT.

Pop onto the Mooney email technical list and ask the experience of the grass runway based Mooney aircraft owners. There are several. The one I know is Australian (that's were I obtained the grass performance tables from the M20J POH).
 
AdamZ said:
I think the RV is neat but don't know how comfortable I'd feel flying a plane that someone else built.
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Show of hands! How many of us here are flying planes that somebody else built? (pause) Oh, all of us?! Yeah, that's what I thought.

(Chris Jones, go fly your RV7 and quit showing off! Tom, I'd give my right arm for a ride in the Fairchild when you're done with it.)
 
Troy Whistman said:
Show of hands! How many of us here are flying planes that somebody else built? (pause) Oh, all of us?! Yeah, that's what I thought.

(Chris Jones, go fly your RV7 and quit showing off! Tom, I'd give my right arm for a ride in the Fairchild when you're done with it.)
Click to expand...

Troy my comment certainly wasn't meant as a slight to home builders I admire the dedication and skill for sure and enjoyed your blog while you were building. Fact is however that over the past couple of years we have gotten to know folks like Tom, Chris and yourself even if its just in cyberspace. We have gotten to read your posts and can probably evaluate you better than if you were just selling a homebuilt with a flyer on the wall of the FBO or TAP. How do I know the RV that Sammy Seller is unloading was built with the same care and precision that Troy built his. FAA certs aside. Certainly my comfort threshold is gonna be different than someone elses.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Isn't there an "upgrade" to bladders available for Mooneys? You lose a bit of capacity IIRC, but that could still potentially make it a viable option.
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Unfortunately you not only lose fuel but there seems to be a suggestion of a problem getting the water out of the Onan tanks. 4 or 5 water induced accidents, IIRC.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
OWT.

Pop onto the Mooney email technical list and ask the experience of the grass runway based Mooney aircraft owners. There are several. The one I know is Australian (that's were I obtained the grass performance tables from the M20J POH).
Click to expand...

So Dr Bruce's explanation below is incorrect? (Not trying to incite anything, just trying to get to the truth on Mooney aircraft on grass strips)
 
N2212R said:
His plane - Comanche 250. Hmmmmmmm.... We do our lesson, and come back, and he lands shortly after us. So I dash out to the fuel pumps and start talking with him....

Needs a panel overhaul (for my tastes) but I think this deal could work. And it even has the heavy duty nosewheel. Time to run the numbers...
Click to expand...

Great choice Ed. Good luck with the deal.
 
Anthony said:
Great choice Ed. Good luck with the deal.
Click to expand...

I'm heading out there today. Hopefully he's around.
 
AdamZ said:
Troy my comment certainly wasn't meant as a slight to home builders I admire the dedication and skill for sure and enjoyed your blog while you were building. Fact is however that over the past couple of years we have gotten to know folks like Tom, Chris and yourself even if its just in cyberspace. We have gotten to read your posts and can probably evaluate you better than if you were just selling a homebuilt with a flyer on the wall of the FBO or TAP. How do I know the RV that Sammy Seller is unloading was built with the same care and precision that Troy built his. FAA certs aside. Certainly my comfort threshold is gonna be different than someone elses.
Click to expand...


I know what you meant, Adam, I just thought the comment was funny. You said you wouldn't want a plane built by someone else. But, unless you're a homebuilder, you ARE flying in a plane somebody else built... somebody at a Cessna factory, or a Mooney factory, or a.... (you get the idea).

I know you meant in a HOMEBUILT built by somebody else, but that's not what you said, and I just had to be a little off-the-cuff and make a smart-aleck remark about it. :) I guess I need to get away from the keyboard and go fly more. :yes: Don't mind me! My comment most certainly wasn't a personal attack. :no:
 
bbchien said:
Now that EdFred has a grass strip, I will no longer say "Mooney, Mooney, Mooney". Unfortunately, a noncomplex Simple travelling bird- leaves us with Grummans, which are not great on short strip grass (with trees at the West end).

So that leaves us with Brands C or P. Because Brand C retracts are kinda fragile. for a travelling bird that gives us Brand P.
Click to expand...

Let's not forget Brand B. Down here a Bo is considered a rough field airplane, and I operated my Travel Air off some very ugly unpaved strips including the baked scorched cracked up clay of N. Texas with no wear and tear issues. While pretty and fine, the Bo's & Barons are still stout. A T-Bone would win a mid air Demolision Derby.
 
I actually really enjoy flying a not built by me homebuilt. I mean you get all the advantages of having a homebuilt, reduced cost for maintenance being number one. If you buy a homebuilt with an engine :) then they are typically more fuel efficient than something certified. Plus, I dont have to spend years building the thing!

Of course making sure it is well built is important, but especially if you are buying from the original builder you can check all the documentation and photos of the build, plus find people experienced with the type to do a pre buy.
 
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